STARTING ISSUES


Information and questions on GL1500 Goldwings (1988-2000)
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RBGERSON
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STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:46 pm



When I press the starter button and release I can hear the solenoid next to the battery clicking but on release not pushing the button in..///first ? is that normal???

I had the battery checked and it's good 311 out of 350 point whatever that means. I have been keeping it on a tender..reads 13.4 or 5 with a meter when I take the tender off to ride..and 12.5 on the volt meter on the instrument panel. It seems like the starter starts to turn but then doesn't. after riding the battery show a good charge 12.7 +. Riding the meter shows 14.7 to 15 charging V's

This was a sometimes issue meaning when it first started I thought it was just a low battery from lots of short runs with starting it up ..driving a few miles and starting it again..thought I was using more juice than I was creating during a short ride with many stops..but it steady got worse IE didn't start more often so I started using a tender..still kept getting more frequent non starting events. Note I can always give it a little push, very little and pop 1st and she fires right up.

So bottom line what is the best place to start; given a good battery, clean connections at the battery terminals and very loud clicking of the solenoid when I release the starter button..with the starter sometimes giving a grunt..usually the first and second time I push the starter button, after that..just the click of the solenoid right next the battery. I understand there are two solenoid on the 1500..(never dealt with this model but lots of experience with 1000' and 1100's). Where is the second solenoid or relay or whatever???

So where do I start???

I got the manual out..Honda shop..found the second solenoid/relay switch it looks like I am supposed listen for clicking when the ignition is on and starter button is pushed..I am not sure if I can hear the second relay/solenoid clicking will give that a try next..then take both relays out and test for continuity. when battery is attached directly..

OK I pulled both right side covers off..I so I could feel/see/hear both relays clicking and they do, when I push and release the starter button..this time I pushed it 4 or 5 times as I listened and the damn thing started..hasn't all day before this time..4 or 5 errand stop sand I had to push start it each time.

any other advise before I start this process...


HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

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virgilmobile
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby virgilmobile » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:40 pm

From your dissertation, my best guess is the solenoid has burnt or contaminated contacts.This explanes the cranking after several clicks.The solenoid finally connected well enough to pass power through the solenoid to the starter motor.
Now which one is bad will take a little testing .
When it won't crank again,probe each side of the solenoid to find out where the voltage is being lost.
The solenoid is just a really high current switch.

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RBGERSON
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:03 pm

Yep, it was kind of a dissertation couldn't help myself. Well how do I probe to see where voltage is lost..electrical stuff is not my strong suit. I have a meter now what..?

And has anyone ever plugged apart a 1500 solenoid..I done a couple of 1000's and 1100's flipped or cleaned the bar and they work like new again.

PS I was hoping you might chime in here.
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
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Sempai
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby Sempai » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Okay...I got a little lost here after all the reading......
You hit the start button but don't hear the solenoid(s) engage UNTIL YOU RELEASE the button?
Don't shoot yourself in the foot. I think I'd start by confirming/denying the STARTER SWITCH as the problem.
Keep the rubber side down.

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virgilmobile
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby virgilmobile » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:50 am

I've done the same on the 1100 solenoid.I think you'll find it's the same on the 1500.The contacts and disk do get contaminated/ burnt and end up not working well.
As far as testing....I energize the coil and hold it, then short the posts with a screwdriver.

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RBGERSON
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:54 pm

OK will try today..but just to clarify for a non-electrical whiz:

Turn key on, push starter button assuming the starter doesn't turn then..with starter button still in, jump the "B" relay studs see if the starter turns..if so that's by bad relay if not do the same for the "A" relay next to the battery..if still nothing try jumping both relays at the same time with the ignition on but no starter button pushed??? or try with ignition on, with starter button pushed in and both jumped.

With ignition off and both relays jumped should the starter turn but not start the bike as there is no juice to the rest of the ignition system.?? Just wondering???

Sorry to ask so many ?? but I don't want to fry something and make it worse.. :)
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

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RBGERSON
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:31 pm

IT figure's now every time I try to start her she starts right up..so I can't test the solenoids!!! Maybe all my fooling aroudn moved a bad connection and made it good temporarily??? But they all looked clean and are tight..
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
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virgilmobile
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:18 pm

Don't you just hate the electrical gremlins?
I suspect that if you have a no-crank issue 'sometimes' It's the solenoid contacts.
This is assuming ALL the big wires are clean and tight.
As far as testing during a no-crank...The battery power goes through solenoid "A" first and then through "B" to get to the starter.
When it won't crank...hold the button down and short either one in turn to see if it will crank.
This is assuming the solenoid does click.

Another low tech method is to rap the side of the solenoid with the butt end of your screwdriver while holding the start button.

A higher technical method....Use a test probe(light or volt meter) and probe each stud. with the button pushed down,both solenoids should click and pass volts from the battery to the starter.

And yes..if you short both terminals on each solenoid,the starter will crank.

All this if the starter isn't the cause. :?:

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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:04 pm

Ok I think I get it

Just to be sure:
A higher technical method....Use a test probe(light or volt meter) and probe each stud

Means using a meter set to reading volts, touch the leads, positive to one stud and negative to the other stud, at same time while pushing the starter button, ignition on? to see if the meter shows hopefully 12 v's +/-
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

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virgilmobile
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84 GL 1200 I

Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:09 pm

Nope.....The meter will have the black lead on the engine or battery negative,then probe each big terminal and it should show 12 volts on each one while cranking.

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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:14 pm

OK..that was my second choice..:)! Now if it would stop working again..I can't;t believe I am saying that...
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

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virgilmobile
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84 GL 1200 I

Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:22 pm

At least you can rest easy now that you know how it works.It makes ckecking it in a parking lot easier.
You might do that too....Get your meter out and hook it up...Probe each terminal and see what a working one is suspose to measure.
If it quits,you'll be able to tell which one is bad....Then just jump the terminals with the screwdriver to get it cranked.
##### This is assuming that the solenoid does 'click' ######
If it won't click,there may be a neutral safety issue.
You can still jump the solenoid even if it won't click.

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RBGERSON
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:24 am

Thanks I'll throw the meter in the bike along with a old starter cable to jump it if/when I need to..let you know what happens..
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:48 am

Update..actually a little rant..Well it's been four days and it's starting fine every time..good I guess but I know it's going to start giving me problems again..I HATE ELECTRICAL ISSUES..

One note I have pulled the headlight fuse so I am not putting extra strain on the battery when I turn the bike on and I am running with both side panels of the battery/right side off and the one on the left that covers the fuse box??? And it's been colder here..not above 65* that's colder for AZ :D. Anyone think those things might have changed anything relevant to my original issue???
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby Sempai » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:12 am

virgilmobile wrote:At least you can rest easy now that you know how it works.It makes ckecking it in a parking lot easier.
You might do that too....Get your meter out and hook it up...Probe each terminal and see what a working one is suspose to measure.
If it quits,you'll be able to tell which one is bad....Then just jump the terminals with the screwdriver to get it cranked.
##### This is assuming that the solenoid does 'click' ######
If it won't click,there may be a neutral safety issue.
You can still jump the solenoid even if it won't click.

NOTICE!!!!
When you jump the solenoid(s), all neutral safety checks are being circumnavigated. If successfully jumped, the engine will crank regardless of the transmission being in neutral or in gear, regardless of the clutch lever being in or out, regardless of the sidestand being up or down, and regardless of the reverse lever being in or out. Make sure the bike is in NEUTRAL before trying to jump your solenoid(s).
Keep the rubber side down.

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RBGERSON
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:20 am

Yep..understood..thanks for the warning..
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

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RB

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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:18 pm

Now a whole week and it hasn't failed once..I have been riding aroudn with the headlight fuse out, and all the side covers off so I can get at things quickly..AND it working perfectly. Don't know if I should be mad or happy.

Could having the headlight fuse out be part of the "solution" and problem??? Or having the side covers off cooling things better???
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:13 pm

Another related question ,I think, if the kill switch is off should the starter still turn??? It did on 1000's and 1100's but not on my 1500..is that normal?? With the kill switch off I don't even get a click at the solenoids.
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

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RB

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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby WingAdmin » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:26 pm

RBGERSON wrote:Another related question ,I think, if the kill switch is off should the starter still turn??? It did on 1000's and 1100's but not on my 1500..is that normal?? With the kill switch off I don't even get a click at the solenoids.


The starter should turn (i.e. engine should crank but not start) with the kill switch off. The kill switch supplies power to the ignition line on the ECU, as well as to the primary of each of the three coils. The power take-off for the start button is before the kill switch.

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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:49 am

OK, I double checked..with kill switch off. I get NOTHING..when IT'S on it starts right up..obviously someone changed something or I have a wiring short/issue. where to start looking? In the switch or where is the take off to the coils etc???

Have I SAID I HATE ELECTRICAL ISSUES..
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:06 pm

Well I based my statement on examining the circuit diagram - to me it should work just like it said.

However - I just went down to my garage and tried it - and wouldn't you know, with the kill switch off, all I get is a click, and the headlight turns off. No crank.

So to me, you have power from the Ignition start fuse, and travels through the Ignition/cruise relay, which is energized by the bank angle sensor (i.e. it's closed if the bike is upright). From there, it travels to the starter switch, down to point CC on the first picture.

On the second picture, we have power coming in from point CC, through the coil of starter relay A. It then heads through the reverse switch relay, which is closed if the reverse switch is off, ensuring that you don't start it while in reverse. From there it travels into the reverse diode assembly, and takes any one of several paths. If:

- bike is in neutral, or
- clutch is pulled in AND sidestand is up

Then power flows, which engages starter relay A. This allows power to flow to both the coil and contacts of starter relay B. As long as the reverse switch is open, it will allow the coil to energize, which engages the starter motor.

Nowhere in this circuit do I see the kill switch. So why is it preventing the engine from cranking?



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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:11 pm

Looking at the schematic for the kill ("Stop") switch, it's clear that the power takeoff for the starter switch is BEFORE the kill switch.

So...Virgil? Anyone? Why is this happening?


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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby RBGERSON » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:32 am

I don't even get a click..headlight goes out..
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

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virgilmobile
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Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:03 am

I'll check mine too and the schematics.back soon

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virgilmobile
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84 GL 1200 I

Re: STARTING ISSUES

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:49 am

I can't get to the bike till tonight,however I did find this on the schematic.
Power goes to the kill switch and IN the switch assembly,it jumps to the start button.
If the 2 wires that feed the kill switch were reversed,when the kill switch is in the off position,it would also remove power from the start button.
If this occurs on your bike,regardless of the color code,I'd swap the 2 wires.
This should cure the no crank problem.
It also brings up a good point.In your configuration....if the kill switch is intermittent and reversed wired it will also be a intermittent crank.




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