Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt


Information and questions on GL1500 Goldwings (1988-2000)
  • Sponsored Links
amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:42 am



'88 1500.

When I pulled the accelerator pump it was clean. I was kind of hoping to find it gunked up like Virgil's. I put a new kit in it, replaced any questionable vac lines including the 90' one under the rubber mat and replaced the carb insulator boots. I did not bebuild the carbs because the frame was marked, meaning the Honda low speed jet fix was supposedly done on this bike. Put it back together and the bike still runs like crap. I get ZERO fuel out of the acc. pump nozzles when hitting the throttle from idle.

Virgil showed how he modified his acc. pump by plugging the bypass holes, I suppose I could try that next. What gets me is why do some say their '88/'89 bikes run fine if this is an obvious design flaw in the acc. pump? Is this the only way I'm going to get fuel out the pump nozzles?

I have to choke it in order to rev up the RPMs. When I remove the choke and try to rev it higher, say past about 1500-2000, it just bogs down and takes several seconds to finally rev higher. I've read tons of posts on these issues but I have no idea where to go from here, other than taking it to a shop.

I can tinker mechanically on some of my stuff but this bike has beat me and I'm ready to give up. Any advice is appreciated.

BTW - none of this is under load, just running it in the shop in neutral.


Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:24 am

Here is a point of interest.
The accelerator pump has just one check valve in the bottom.Mine did not seal.
The outbound check valve is in the riser tube.This one was OK but the "O" rings were hard.
The "O" rings should be replaced too.
I also adjusted the arm a bit tight.It squirts at the slightest movement of the throttle.

amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:52 am

I wasn't aware of the riser check valve, there were no "O" rings in the kit. Is the riser tube accessible with the carbs on or will I have to remove them?

The check valve in the pump popped out when I applied some air pressure on the output hole, does that mean mine isn't sealing properly either? I tried your idea of expanding the check valve slightly using a ground down socket but I didn't want to hit it too hard so I don't know if I was successful in expanding it any.
Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:50 pm

there were no "O" rings in the kit


Mine either,just the diaphragm...I found suitable ones in a generic kit from Harbor freight.

Is the riser tube accessible with the carbs on or will I have to remove them?


I was able to completely remove the accelerator pump without removing the carbs...The riser tube can be removed by loosening the top plate and tilting it up a little.
The accelerator pump has one difficult screw on the lower right side..I used a angle Phillips to get it out.
The check valve in the pump popped out when I applied some air pressure on the output hole, does that mean mine isn't sealing properly either?




If it popped out easily,it probably wasn't sealed very well either...The pump body is tapered and the socket I used was to seat the aluminum valve tight into the body....
Be aware that if it's whacked really hard,you can drive the check valve all the way to the bottom and seal off the feed port...Just a thump...Fill the carb and use a little air to check if the valve sealed to the outer case.


Here's the part I refer to...The first time I whacked it in,I drove it to the bottom and sealed off the fuel feed... The check valve was laid on the vice BEFORE I put it back into the casting.
I used a 7/16 socket and ground down a slight taper on the end.Just enough to fit inside the lip of the check valve.
Again just a few taps with a hammer swelled the valve at the top 0.010" larger than the bottom.
Using heat to expand the casting,I tapped it back into place.
Be careful.If you smash it all the way down,it will contact the brass insert in the bottom and completely shut off the fuel.So I suggest either marking it's original depth or scribing it into the inside of the casting.

The check valve was laid on the vice BEFORE I put it back into the casting.
I used a 7/16 socket and ground down a slight taper on the end.Just enough to fit inside the lip of the check valve...Gave it a good thump to expand the diameter of the aluminum check valve.Then I put it in the pump body and seated it...



User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:07 pm

Also on the check valve...I used a micrometer first to measure the OD...Whacked it a little and measured again..I saw a 0.010" increase in diameter...good enough for me...Just be careful when you seat the check valve back into the pump body...It's easy to get it jammed to the bottom and seal off the feed.

amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:09 pm

Thanks Virgil, I will pull it again and try to re-seat it...it may still be leaking or has been sealed off.

Looking back at your posts, you came to the conclusion that the pump could not have worked correctly as is with the bypass port. That's the part that has me confused. Is that saying my pump will not work properly unless I seal off that bypass port? Thanks for indulging my ignorance on this.
Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:59 am

amsoilguy wrote:Thanks Virgil, I will pull it again and try to re-seat it...it may still be leaking or has been sealed off.

Looking back at your posts, you came to the conclusion that the pump could not have worked correctly as is with the bypass port. That's the part that has me confused. Is that saying my pump will not work properly unless I seal off that bypass port? Thanks for indulging my ignorance on this.


In my mind only. :?: .I suppose the bypass ports were there so there wouldn't be much fuel delivery if the throttle were slowly rolled...only on a quick twist...One of those stupid EPA requirements or something....
I wasn't concerned about the little extra fuel used and my mileage shows this too.
If in town,lots of stop and go,I get around 30-32mpg...The long interstate drive yielded 38mpg.

I gladly accepted the lower economy for that quick throttle response....
Mind you..just a twitch on my throttle squirts fuel and the bike jumps fast...It scared me...ALMOST too much.....I got used to it tho :lol:

I also raised my slide from it's resting position by (around)3.5mm with a "O" ring...this helped clear that final little hesitation.
Remember my carbs are the original 88 year,no factory mods...
The accelerator pump mod cleared 80% of my problems,lifting the slide took care of the rest.
I also adjusted the pump control arm.At a throttle rest,there's a bit of pressure on it...I adjusted out the throttle delay in operating the pump....At the slightest throttle movement..it squirts.
Each thing I did to mine were to affect a specific problem,like changing the slow speed jet size and lowering the float level for a mid range lag...

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:28 pm

By the way...My bike was the worse case scenario...It had every bad symptom there is...
Off idle hesitation...the engine would near die as I operated the throttle.
Poor idle...vacuum lines bad.
lagging at 1000-1500 rpm....I increased the slow jet size...
Sputtering 1500-2500 rpm....to much fuel delivery from the mid range circuit...Lowered the fuel level a few mm.
Some of the problems I'm sure I caused....
As I changed one thing,it affected the rest of the carb....Like the slow speed jets...As I increased it's idling fuel supply,it also increased the midrange supply ending up with too much fuel for the 1500-2500 range...It fixed the 1000-1500 but upset the mixture for the 1500-2500.
I had the carbs off my bike 4 times...each one to resolve a different problem...
This took me 3 months to sort it out.
I'd fix the carbs for one problem and then something new would manifest itself.

So the best advice I can provide it to attack each problem area one at a time...Things I did to mine may not be needed on yours....

amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:44 pm

Appreciate the advice Virgil. I'm focused on the acc. pump and will try to keep at it until I get it working...hopefully. This bike has been down all season and I've about had it, but I don't have a spare $1K for a shop to be doing the same thing.
Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:17 pm

Bench test the pump and riser tube before you spend the time putting it back in....It takes a bit to set it up but it's easier than on and off a few times...

Don't forget the riser tube has to be filled too..It will take some stroking of the lever to get the gas pumped through the system before it comes out the riser tube..
It won't squirt the very first twist...it's got to be "primed"..the riser check valve holds the whole thing full of gas...

You can also see where the arm has to be to start the pump working...I had to "adjust(bend)" mine just a little after I put it back on the carb...I found that the lever didn't move till the throttle was turned almost 1/8 turn...I ended adjusting it so the lever was just starting it's stroke with the throttle closed....Now there's instant squirt..

amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:50 pm

I pulled the carbs and removed the acc. pump. I removed the riser tube and the upper check valve which appeared in good working order and replaced all 'O' rings. I manually tested the pump off the carbs and could get fuel out of the riser tube. I then manully tested it on the carbs and could get a squirt of fuel out of the nozzles. I bent the lever so that it is pushing the pin at first movement.

Re-installed the carbs and started it up. I still get ZERO squirt from the acc. pump and I now have a huge idle surge once warmed up and with the choke off, between 500-2000 RPMs. I'm getting very frustrated and don't know what my next step should be. Should I plug the bypass port in the acc. pump? Should I do an entire carb rebuild? The fuel has to be going somewhere, just not to the nozzles.

This bike supposedly had the slow speed jet fix done, which I assume were replaced with #55 size?
Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:28 pm

I then manully tested it on the carbs and could get a squirt of fuel out of the nozzles.


Don't mess with the pump...it works now..

Sounds like you fixed the accelerator pump issues...at least on your test...it actually worked the way it should...
Remember that the acc. pump is supplied fuel from the carb bowl...if it's not getting enough fuel to the carb then obviously it won't fill the acc.pump either...
Now you have a surging problem...
It sounds like they might be connected ....lack of enough fuel to supply the engine and acc. pump.

Next step..vacuum test the fuel petcock valve and check the vacuum hose...it connects to the right intake runner....
check the fuel filter for being plugged and test the fuel pump for delivery...

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:49 pm

By the way,mine won't run well with the air cleaner off

amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:00 am

Thanks Virgil, I will attack those next. The surge is the same with or without the air filter and cover. The fuel filter is new.
Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:31 am

My bike will surge if I leave the "choke" on..Even a little...or if the choke lever on the carb isn't retracting all the way....

Please understand that I'm just throwing out ideas because I can't actually play with your bike....
Any suggestions I make are from what I experienced on mine and general knowledge.I do try to follow a process of elimination in my head....I certainly hope it helps..

ALSO...
"dingdong"]The most common cause of surging at idle is the short vacuum line between the two left rear cylinders between the the spark plugs. It gets hard from the heat and cracks. There is another possibility that others say can solve this problem. ??? If you rotate the idle adjuster knob,inside the fuel door, back and forth a few times to free it up and then reset to about 800rpm the idle will smooth out.


I also caused a surging problem...viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10376

Here's another quote...
airpane » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:53 am
O.K. got it fixed. I found two vaccum leaks. One on the left side of the intake manifold and one on the automatic fuel cut off valve vaccum line. Also found tha the filter in the sub-air system was almost completely stopped up. It now idles at 950 rpm withut surging

If the fuel vacuum valve diaphragm leaks or the hose leaks,it won't hold the valve open very well and squeeze off the fuel supply to the carb....Mine also had a pinhole in it...For temporary use,I just bypassed it till I could get a replacement.

amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:47 am

Thanks Virgil. By all means, please throw out any and all suggestions. I will check, and maybe go ahead and replace all of the above mentioned vac. lines. My idle surge is exactly like yours, only twice the number of RPMs. I haven't opened up the carbs yet and that may be my next option after these other checks.

If I do that I might as well put in a rebuild kit. If I remember, you installed #60 slow speed jet, correct? If mine has the #55 jet should I try the larger one? Are they marked to be able to tell?
Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:25 am

Attack this one step at a time..it's easy to create a monster if you do too many changes at once.
If it dosen't work,you'd never know which one caused it.

Your idle surge...if it wasn't there before....well,you caused it...and it's not the acc. pump.
Look at the vacuum lines...especially the cluster on the right side of the carb.
There easy to pull just one out of the "T" connection..And hard to see.
Bad surging like you describe is usually a vacuum line broken or loose.

I did increase the slow jet....beware that when I did,it was to help that last little hesitation problem i had after I got the acc. pump working....

Actually,looking back,I had the numbers wrong..The OEM jets are #50 and the mod is a #55.
It's stamped on the end of the jet.

The jet mod also caused another problems for me...too much fuel in the slow(idle) circuit...
I had to squeeze down the idle mix screws almost shut...I think there just 3/4 turn out now.

I still suggest pulling the carbs last..after all other things have been eliminated....

For the carbs,I generally I've found just the slow jets near plugged....they can be cleaned.
I did have a bowl gasket leak too...Do not use Permatex...the gas dissolves it..
One plugged slow jet will cause surging as the engine hunts for gas to run...

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:37 am

Here's a site that covers rebuilding...http://www.jmartino.me/carb/index.htm
I'll also show one of his pictures and point to the drain screws...It's nice to know...The carbs can be drained and,using compressed air into the breather pipe at the gas cap,blown clean....

Thank you Jim Martino for this information....

User avatar
WingAdmin
Site Admin
Posts: 17045
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:16 pm
Location: Strongsville, OH
Motorcycle: 2000 GL1500 SE
1982 GL1100A Aspencade (sold)
1989 PC800 (wife's!)
1998 XV250 Virago (sold)
2007 Aspen Sentry Trailer

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:18 am

When I was diagnosing fuel issues in my wife's PC800, I went to NAPA and bought a $2 brass "T" coupling. I pulled the fuel input and outputs off of the vacuum-operated petcock and plugged them onto the coupling, to bypass the petcock. This is an easy way to determine if the petcock is at fault without vacuum testing, etc. Also keep in mind that if the petcock does have a leaky diaphragm, it could be feeding raw fuel directly into the vacuum line when the bike is operating.

amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:30 pm

Appreciate all the help. Yes, I apparently caused the idle surge so I have to figure out how.

Scott, what did you do with the third opening on the "T" coupling, just plug it?
Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
WingAdmin
Site Admin
Posts: 17045
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:16 pm
Location: Strongsville, OH
Motorcycle: 2000 GL1500 SE
1982 GL1100A Aspencade (sold)
1989 PC800 (wife's!)
1998 XV250 Virago (sold)
2007 Aspen Sentry Trailer

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:07 pm

amsoilguy wrote:Appreciate all the help. Yes, I apparently caused the idle surge so I have to figure out how.

Scott, what did you do with the third opening on the "T" coupling, just plug it?


No, one opening went to the fuel pump, one opening fed one carburetor, the other opening fed the second carburetor.

amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:28 pm

I was finally able to get back to this. I bypassed the fuel petcock with no noticeable change, still getting huge idle surge and will eventually die if I don't give it some choke. I tried inspecting the vac. lines again and couldn't see any obvious problems or disconnects. As mentioned earlier, the 90' line under the carb mat has been replaced. Do I start replacing vac. lines that look even remotely suspicious?
Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:05 pm

Always verify a vacuum line quality before just replacing it.It seems the ones with a sharp 90* bend are first suspect.dont forget to look t the ones on the intake runner.I think there's 3 or 4 of them.left and right sides.

amsoilguy
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Boise, Idaho
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby amsoilguy » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:49 pm

I finally reached the end of my capacity to get the idle fixed. I talked to a local independent shop that another local winger recommended and talked to them. They didn't work on anything older than '90, called it vintage...go figure. They recommended another local shop who likes working on older bikes and other powersports. I explained the situation and left it with him. A week later called and said it was done. I went to pick it up, expecting hundreds of dollars on the bill, but was only $160. He said he found a cracked vac. line which I apparently missed and also sync'd the carbs, which I also tried and apparently failed.

It runs great! Plus, I couldn't believe how reasonable his labor was. I learned a lot but I should have done this months ago. Thanks to Virgil and others who offered their help. There's not much riding weather left here before winter but we'll sure be starting back up next spring! :D
Allan

'88 GL1500

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 7644
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: Rebuilt accelerator pump, still no squirt

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:22 pm

im pleased as punch that it runs ok now.
you did a good job.No question bout that.




Return to “GL1500 Information & Questions”




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: robbie63, Winston's Chiefs and 4 guests