The 'ol carb issue... continued!


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waituntilthebeep
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The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Mon May 26, 2014 4:46 pm



Hey there all. A while back I had asked a few questions about my 89' 1500 carb troubles. It was idling a little bit rough and had a flat throttle response at around 1500-2500 rpm. I could add a little "choke" and get rid of some of the flat spot some of the time but that depended on engine temp. I opted not to screw with it at all until recently when it started running rougher and the flat spot got flatter. I had an opportunity to spend the day undressing the bike and pulling the carbs. Thank you to all who have posted pics and such on this process as I reviewed a bunch of them as I was doing this. However, I am now driving my truck cuz my bike is not running right. I need some feedback.

Both carbs were actually really clean inside. I have run a crap load of Seafoam through them and am guessing that this helped immensely in that regard. The diaphragms for the the slides and all the seals are in great shape. As is the accelerator pump diaphragm. The jets are 55's.I added the o-rings to the slides to kick them out a little bit as was suggested by virgil. I looked at everything inside the carbs and it looks great. I am quite familiar with the insides of automotive carbs so it was pretty basic.

The problem is that now it idles great but has a giant flat spot from 1000-1500 (enough to kill the engine if you leave it in the dead spot) and another one at 2000-3000 and no top end over that. I did look at the vac lines above and below the mat and everything looked ok. I am assuming that I will need to pull the carbs and check everything again because I can put my hand over the right carb opening and snuff the bike out in a second but put my hand over the left one and it stays running for a few seconds and simply drowns itself out with fuel it draws out of the accelerator circuit. Gonna pull the carbs and revisit the entire vaccum line system again.

On a technical note: Is there anyone in the group that can either point me to or give me a somewhat technical view of the function of the slides. I understand the throttle valve process in automotive terms but don't get the slides. I also need to know if having the entire top of the air cleaner assy off will make a difference in how they perform. Reason being, I noticed that in the top of the carb there is a port that goes to the back side of the slide and I assume that maybe this port allows the vaccum that builds inside the air cleaner to assist in pulling the slide back when there is a high air demand from the engine? If that is the case, I need to have the air cleaner assembled before I get too far into debugging this thing.

It is frustrating but I am gonna kick it's butt. I will have a technical understanding of this before all is said and done. Thanks in advance for any input you have to offer.



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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Mon May 26, 2014 11:10 pm

Additional information - I hooked up a set of gauges and even synced, I only have about 16" of vacuum. That would be pretty low if it was a car. Does anybody know what a good spec for the vacuum is on this 89 wing?

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby virgilmobile » Tue May 27, 2014 10:10 am

Vacuum readings.Just get them equal at 900 rpm.
Slides rise as air passes under them and sucks the air out of the upper chamber.
You should see them jump about half way when you rap the throttle from a idle to 4 grand.
When you have the flat spot,bump the "choke "a bit ,if it clears up,raise the floats a couple of mm.to increase the avaiable fuel to the jets.
If it's worse,lower the floats a couple of mm.it may be getting too much fuel.
Mine got worse.I could set still and hold it at 1500 rpm,unplug the fuel pump and wait a minute,as the fuel level dropped,it smoothed out.I lowered the floats a touch.
Test and tell.
You can also look at the vacuum lines on the right side,inside the frame and the ones in the right pocket.There carb control lines from the CCM valves.They open and close at 1500,2500 and 3000 rpm

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby virgilmobile » Tue May 27, 2014 12:01 pm

One more thing,mine would not run properly with the carbs exposed...I had to fit the air cleaner and top....Verify if it's starving for fuel in the flat spot(choke) and visit the air valves/vacuum lines...
I did pull one just vacuum line loose from the "T"on the right carb cluster and buggered the throttle...
Take note that many of my vacuum lines had hardened at the connections,I simply trimmed 1/2" off the end and reattached..Every vacuum line with a sharp 90* bend had to be replaced..Also every vacuum line that was connected to the engine was leaking..I think there's 2 on each rear intake tubes(on the back side)...the heat hardened the hose at the connection and many had internal cracking....

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Tue May 27, 2014 2:45 pm

Will definitely look that stuff over. I noticed today when I was messing with it at lunch that when I rap the throttle, there is a storm of fuel coming from the pilot, main and accel pump jets. As the engine is gasping, I even get a fog of fuel being pushed back out of the carb openings. Seems like too much fuel. Another thing I thought of as well... I added the o-rings to the slides and noticed that there is already a washer under the needle inside the slide. Did you have that on yours? Was wondering of maybe the o-ring added too much fueling in conjunction with the washer on the needle. The thing purrs when it idles now, smooth as silk with no wavering of rpm's. Just can't try to roll the bike or it gasps and dies.

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby virgilmobile » Tue May 27, 2014 4:11 pm

Does it run badly with covers on.??
How does it run setting on the center stand...carbs exposed..?
If you try to hold the 1500 rpm range,does it die and will the "choke" keep it running ..??
Can you pull the fuel pump power wire and get it to run better?

Mine did not have any washer under the needle and I did not add one..Not on the 1500.That needle adjusts the Main jet fuel ammount...Usually noticible around the 2500 rpm range....A mid range lag...
I did add the large "O" ring to lift the slides about 3mm.Mine was gasping for air when I rolled the throttle from idle to 2k...When I propped mine open,the gasping quit....

I also,at one time, had a rich condition...Verified this by holding the rpm right where it started to stumble(2000 RPM) then unplugging the fuel pump...It took about 60-70 seconds then started to smooth out...It ran great in the "bad" range for several seconds till the carbs ran low on fuel...
A bit of experimenting led to the fact that the bowls had too much fuel in them....I lowered the fuel level by killing the pump....now to "adjust it"...

I timed the point when it started to smooth out and when it ran low on fuel...reset the pump and ran it again...same procedure...as soon as it smoothed out,I waited till 1/2 that time duration..for mine,it was about 8 seconds..
**going from memory now...the engine started to smooth out..seemed to rev OK and stayed smooth for about 15 seconds then started to stumble from being gas starved****
I Killed the engine,pulled the carbs and measured the fuel in the carbs....I adjusted the floats till they would shut off when they had the same fuel in them as when I killed the bike....I lowered the floats 2mm.

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby ct1500 » Tue May 27, 2014 10:59 pm

At one time your motorcycle ran good at factory specifications but due to a system or component failure(s) no longer will.

The 1500 is without a doubt one of the most complex and difficult to work on bikes ever built with numerous inter related systems. By deviating from factory carb specs so that now fuel pours out accelerator nozzles with jet size changes, slide needle manipulation and float levels you are digging yourself a deeper hole and are quickly approaching a point of no return with it to ever run right with the fuel mileage, reliability and smoothness these machines are known for.

An accurate diagnosis through observation and testing as to what system(s) are causing the problem is the first step towards a successful repair.

Just my thoughts on the matter, good, bad or indifferent.
This is what I do
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please PM

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Tue May 27, 2014 11:11 pm

ct1500 wrote: you are digging yourself a deeper hole and are quickly approaching a point of no return with it to ever run right with the fuel mileage, reliability and smoothness these machines are known for.

Well, fortunately, there is always a better mouse trap. Unfortunately, from day one, this bike didn't run right so short of burning it to the ground, I have very little to lose. The system is pretty complicated but I am rapidly getting an education and an understanding of it's intricate balances. Worst case scenario (and I am no where near that at the moment), I buy a replacement carb from a known running bike and resolve what may be vacuum issues and all will be well. Until then, I have no more concern than to understand it and figure out it's little secrets along the way. I am enjoying the learning curve and am confident that it will again run and with luck and perseverance, it will run just as well as it should have from the factory floor. If not, I have a great towing plan :lol:

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby virgilmobile » Wed May 28, 2014 6:40 am

Its true about my 88.From day 1 there were dirveability issues.Well documented and had a factory recall to fix it.Mine was not fixed.My mods,beyond vacuum line repairs were done in small steps to bring the fuel system to an acceptable point.The carbs now preform more like the later $500 set.
Just a little tweaking in fuel and air flow systems.

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby virgilmobile » Wed May 28, 2014 8:08 am

ct1500 wrote:At one time your motorcycle ran good at factory specifications but due to a system or component failure(s) no longer will. By deviating from factory carb specs so that now fuel pours out accelerator nozzles with jet size changes, slide needle manipulation and float levels you are digging yourself a deeper hole


Just for clarification..at least on my OEM 88..the factory specs sucked...
Unfortunately not every bike had these factory repairs done...The owners just lived with it..
Mine just got worse with age...50K miles and 25 years later,the vacuum lines deteriorated,diaphragms hardened,no mod kits available in a reasonable price range especially the ECM and CCM module...
So I was left with one option...just like you described..
An accurate diagnosis through observation and testing as to what system(s) are causing the problem is the first step towards a successful repair.

Step by step...one problem at a time...3 months...
As I "cured" one problem..I created another....the digging effect....I increased the slow speed jet size(just like the mod)....well that cleared some of the hesitation but created a rich condition....had to lower the fuel level to compensate..etc etc...
I ended up with,esscentially, a set of 1998 gl1500 carb set without the cost....

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Thu May 29, 2014 7:23 pm

ALRIGHT... 3 days of screwing with it after work and here is where I am: I pulled the carbs again and removed the metal washer from under the needles in the slides. I left the o-rings in. I did find a minor vac leak and fixed it. I balanced everything at 18" of vac. and it seems to idle pretty smooth. I can run the bike on the center stand with the carbs exposed but it does not run quite as good as covered so I installed the air cleaner assy. Right now, I can warm the bike up and while sitting slowly roll the throttle and take it to 4 grand. 1 out of 5 times it will gasp at 1200 or so but the rest of the times, it rolls right up and doesn't complain. If I try to do it under load (from a stop to 4 grand) it gasps almost immediately and will not accelerate unless I rap the throttle to get the accel pump shot. My accel pump is set to start injecting immediately as the throttle is starting to twist. Once I am rolling at 2000 rpm, I can roll into it gently and it will get up and scoot. I tried to apply just a tiny bit of choke and it almost eliminates that problem but I can't give it much throttle or it goes flat. I took it out on the service road by our shop and rolled it up to 3rd gear and braked until I was at 1000 rpm. If I drop out the choke and just barely give it throttle, it rolls up the rpm real smooth and with quite a bit of power. However if I try to give it a little more throttle, anywhere in the spectrum up to full throttle, it sounds like a jet engine and feels flat - the power that is present with barely any throttle drops out and it acts like it is straining to pull. Also, depending on where I put the throttle in that spectrum there is a couple other flatter than most spots. My slides do crack 1/2 to 3/4 of the way open when rapped to 4 grand But I have to wonder if too much fuel is coming out of the ports when they are open. Looks like a ton.

In regards to the floats, being as they are on an angle, I couldn't figure out where to measure the float levels from. I did find a fine film of stickum on the bottom of the tab on one of the floats that was causing the needle to stick a bit so I resolved it. Don't know if it had any effect at all on the issues I was having.

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Thu May 29, 2014 7:25 pm

virgilmobile wrote:
ct1500 wrote:I ended up with,esscentially, a set of 1998 gl1500 carb set without the cost....

Are the 1998 fuel systems interchangeable? Thought the 98's were EFI?

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby WingAdmin » Thu May 29, 2014 9:36 pm

waituntilthebeep wrote:
virgilmobile wrote:
ct1500 wrote:I ended up with,esscentially, a set of 1998 gl1500 carb set without the cost....

Are the 1998 fuel systems interchangeable? Thought the 98's were EFI?


EFI didn't arrive until 2001 with the GL1800 (except for a small number of fuel-injected GL1200's made).

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby virgilmobile » Fri May 30, 2014 8:18 am

Pardon me for these questions I'm about to ask and suggestions...I've gone through this too..
It's hard to work on a bike from just a keyboard..
Can you determine if it's rich or lean?
In the shop,I could hear mine struggle to run smooth at 2k rpm....Above and below it was pretty good.
I held that rpm and added a little choke..a bit at a time...It got worse...I cut the fuel and waited...It actually started to smooth out for 10-15 seconds...My confirmation it was rich...A 2mm drop in fuel level.

In the carbs,the floats are measured by tilting the carb assembly till the float just rests on the needle's spring loaded pin...the floats must be level and accurate..only deviate the measurement if you determine if it is running rich or lean...

Floats are set at 8mm..measured from the casting to the bottom of the float...both sides..not compressing the pin in the needle.

For a test only,can you bypass the vacuum fuel petcock...just in case there a restriction there....or it's vacuum line is question..

Pull the plugs and inspect them..scrutinize the color and gap...tighten the gap to the low side of the specs..

Attach a visible volt meter to the black/white power wire that feeds the coils and watch the volts...
If it drops below 12.5 volts,the ignition won't be great....I know how to cure that..
The plug is 4P-white..it lives at the harness to the right of the carbs.
This wire can also be found feeding the ECM module...
Verify the vacuum line on the ECM is OK.especially where it connects to the intake pipe..There's a "T" in the line and a hose with a plug in the end of it..It's a vacuum test point..

The accelerator pump...I had the most trouble with it....Does it actually put some fuel out of the little brass tubes as soon as you crack the throttle?
Mine would,but it took a quarter of a twist on the throttle to get them to squirt.
Were both "O" rings replaced on the accelerator riser pipe/check valve assembly.?
I also adjusted the arm on the accelerator pump...instead of the 0.10" delay contact..i bent it so it was starting to move as soon as the throttle was touched...even a little before....
Keep at it...this takes time ....one thing at a time...

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Fri May 30, 2014 2:56 pm

No problems with the questions and such. I understand. I thank you for the help. It all smells a bit rich and I get carbon trails on the nice clean floor from rapping it out. I have checked the plugs and they are nice and clean and appear to be firing properly. Already checked the shut off diaphragm and it it is working properly and the vac supply line is good. My accel pump is adjusted so it immediately starts to squirt. It's a good solid flow and the recovery is immediate. I can rap it over and over and it never slows the flow or runs out of fuel to inject. will get back to it after work today.

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Fri May 30, 2014 9:28 pm

Time to pull the carbs again and do some adjustment.I determined that I don't have an issue with the idle jet circuit. I do have a starvation issue above 1000 rpm up to 2500 rpm. I also don't have a properly working accel pump circuit. It does not stay primed like it should - each shot of fuel is inconsistent and sometimes it will not shoot unless throttle has been rapped first... so I need to look over the check ball situation. Guessing it's just like yours was. Also brought up another question... Looking down the throat of the carb there is the port that the needle goes in to. That is the main jet, yes? Directly below that is another port, this one between the main one and the butterfly. When I throttle up, I can see fuel coming out of the main one but not out of the lower one until I give it quite a bit of throttle. Gonna tear down the carbs again and take some time to do some mental mapping of all the cavities and ports in the carb and see where that gets me. As Alice said... it's getting curiouser and curiouser.

On a curiouser note: Do you knpw/understand the purpose of the vac control valve that has the two hoses 16 and 17 attached to it? I know it has a constant supply of vacuum to it on port 16 and 17 goes to the "T" as part of the shot valve circuit. I opened mine up just for giggles and found that it has needles in it that block vac flow through the ports and the actuator is spring loaded. I can only assume since it is not an electrical component that it is heat activated? For giggles, I ran the bike with 16 plugged off and with it connected directly to line 17 to see if I could detect any kind of change. My results? Nodda dang thing. Ran exactly tha same through all rpms in both configurations. Maybe I can figure out it's intent better when I map out all the ports on the carb. That is a Monday thing. Gonna go stuff a storage unit and get my house ready for sale this weekend. Toodles...

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby virgilmobile » Fri May 30, 2014 11:44 pm

The slide needle is in the main jet.It fine tunes fuel flow in the upper load range.It has little affect below 2500 rpm.
The holes between it and the throttle plate....As I remember,there the mid range ports.They flow fuel just as the throttle is cracked open and then to about 1/8 throttle,then the mains kick in.
I think there's 3 of them in staggered formation.They are fed from the slow speed jet.
If you open the throttle and spray into the slow speed jet,it should come out the idle port and all the other holes.
Verify the slow speed jet is perfectly clear.Plugged just a little and one carb quits in the low speed circuit.
Preadjust the idle needle valve too.Start at 2 turns out or so.expect to have to adjust them again.
I'll look at the one shot but as I remember it had something to do with EPA emissions requirement more than operation.
Remember,you can fill the carbs "on the bench" and test the accelerator pump.

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Sat May 31, 2014 12:44 am

virgilmobile wrote:The slide needle is in the main jet.It fine tunes fuel flow in the upper load range.It has little affect below 2500 rpm.
I'll look at the one shot but as I remember it had something to do with EPA emissions requirement more than operation.

Maybe that is part of my problem... I have fuel drooling out of the main jets as low as 1600 rpm. I am just going to start from scratch and recheck and adjust everything so I have a better baseline. What was done from PO is more than likely messing with my attempts to get it set up. On the one shot setup, I think I may toy with deletion. I saw a posting somewhere that someone deleted all the emissions crap and got it to run well but didn't say what they did. I am in it hip deep now, might as well go to my neck, huh? will keep it all intact and serviceable so just in case...

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby waituntilthebeep » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:21 am

So, it runs. Great actually. Wish I knew what specifically I did to make it so. In general, I started over. I pulled the o-rings and put the stainless washers back under the needles that were in there in the beginning. I Checked the float levels and adjusted one from 10 to 8. I started my idle screw settings at 2 and 1/4 turns and didn't do any balancing short of that. I pulled the accel pump off and blew ir through all the ports... enough to actually shoot the one way puck out of it and half way across a 7 bay shop. Guess 140 psi was a little too much? lol. It idles a tad rich, probably because I didn't balance it, and I have a super clean power curve. If I roll the throttle up above 75% I get a superficial gag for a quarter second but it gets right up and hollers. Will see what the fuel economy does. Thank you for all your advice and direction. Wish I could have a definitive fix answer but ya know what? I'll take it after all the screwing around ittook me.

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:39 am

Probably a bit of everything.
Once you sync the carbs,you might have to fine tune the idle jets.
One at a time,I turned mine in till the rpm just started to drop then opened them 1/2 turn back out.
2 foot long screwdriver through the top of the radiator gap.Sheesh.
By the way.Ive been averaging 35 mpg,2 up and junk in my trunk.

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby franksquires » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:24 pm

I just finished reading the posts on this issue. I was surprised to see that one of the authors lives or lived in Bremerton. I was just wondering if you still did? I am about to undertake a rewire and I believe some carb issues on a 1988 GL1500, would be great to know if you are still in the area

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby tyrevere » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:22 pm

I found my issue, and it sounds exactly the same problem your having... my left side carb vacuum cylinder has a leak......I have to replace it but also have to take the carb off....I never have had a carb I worked on done right. this should be interesting.

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Re: The 'ol carb issue... continued!

Postby RBGERSON » Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:48 pm

This thread is mostly Greek to me..but what a thread...


HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB


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