Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE


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Skinner
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Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:45 pm



Help!!! Bike has been in the shop for two months, let me start from July, went to start bike for an oil change, it just cranked no start,bought a new Jell battery she fired up, next day hit the start she just cranked,she then went to the shop. Since then we have replaced the entire kill switch unit, hit the switch she started two days later no, "rebuild carbs" hit switch started, two days later no,put on new connections at the ECU started two days later same, put in a "new fuel pump" & filter,hit switch she started, next day no, they have checked the fuel pump relay, bank angle, kick stand,now what?
At this time still in the shop, Honda tech at a stand still. This is a great bike never fail only has 28K any help please.
Skinner



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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby WingAdmin » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:13 pm

Skinner wrote:Help!!! Bike has been in the shop for two months, let me start from July, went to start bike for an oil change, it just cranked no start,bought a new Jell battery she fired up, next day hit the start she just cranked,she then went to the shop. Since then we have replaced the entire kill switch unit, hit the switch she started two days later no, "rebuild carbs" hit switch started, two days later no,put on new connections at the ECU started two days later same, put in a "new fuel pump" & filter,hit switch she started, next day no, they have checked the fuel pump relay, bank angle, kick stand,now what?
At this time still in the shop, Honda tech at a stand still. This is a great bike never fail only has 28K any help please.
Skinner


Just curious: if you do absolutely NOTHING except wait a couple of days, does it start then?

When it cranks and doesn't start, what is the voltage at the battery?

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virgilmobile
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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:10 pm

It's also easy to get a better idea what's wrong without replacing parts and hoping.
When it won't start,pull one spark plug wire,put on your spare and crank the bike.
Do you have spark or a fuel problem.
If there's no spark,as quick as possible,boost the battery and check it again.
If the voltage feeding the coils and ECM drop below 10.volts or so,the ignition usually quits...even tho the bike still cranks.
Find out why it won't fire and then determine why.there is a step by step elimination procedure.

Skinner
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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:43 pm

Sorry guys for not getting back sooner, but all information now comes from the shop, lets start with the battery letting it sit for days on end does not solve the problem, they checked voltage when just sitting the battery reads 12.06 turn on key goes to 11.9 start cranking goes to 10.6 they then added a jumper to kick it up, it just cranked. They by passed the fuel relay, no luck. They are now testing each spark plug wire, even though they checked the plugs for spark ( I put in new plugs) prior to oil change. One thing to note; once the bike starts up, it is up to spec. "smooth running", no hick ups, no stall. Thanks so far, any thoughts will help.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Techdude2000 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:41 pm

Ask the Tech to check the resistance of the pulse generators.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Mh434 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:34 am

For some reason you have waaay too little voltage in the battery at rest (12.06 is enough to crank the engine, but not enough to fire the plugs at the same time). The battery should show 12.6-12.7 volts at rest after sitting for awhile.

I'd have the battery load-tested. I know it's new, but I've read a few threads recently on similar issues that turned out to be from a bad, new battery.

Skinner
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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:27 pm

Thanks guys, I will tell them to check the resistance of the pulse generators, and to load test the battery, I will get back,

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:58 am

OK guys the mystery continues, they load tested the battery all good, they tested the resistance to the pulse generators twice now, they said all good,
NOW WHAT? Any help please.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:06 am

A bike will start if....
It has compression.Thats OK.
At the moment it won't fire up,Spark is OK .??
The only thing left is lack of fuel.
Even tho the fuel pump may have been confirmed good,there is that pesky vacuum operated fuel cutoff valve.
Has it been confirmed that the gas is actually getting into the carbs.?
The valve can be bypassed for testing.it can also be tested.Does it actually open and hold a vacuum...is the vacuum line in good shape.?
When it won't start,is there gas in the carbs?
There is a (difficult to get to) carb bowl drain screw and the drain is on the right side.
One could see if the carbs have gas in them.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:18 am

Virgil,
I will forward all these questions to the tech and get back , thanks.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:41 am

By the way.just a random thought...
The fuel cutoff valve is vacuum operated.When you first crank the engine,there is only a small ammount of vacuum on that line.It is connected to just one intake runner.
If you open the throttle when you first crank,there will be very little,if any,vacuum avaiable to open the valve.
The bike should be first cranked with the throttle closed and maybe a bit of "choke".
One could use a vacuum hand pump on the valve to ensure its open before its cranked.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:47 am

Another good thought, I will pass that on, I will get back to you. Thanks

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:25 am

The mystery continues, they checked the vacume fuel cut off valve (good) checked vac lines ( good) gas in carbs (good) checked kickstand switch again (good) checked spark we have spark, checked relay #3 (good) " here is what there next GUESS IS", and I quote:
It seems that the unit runs out of gas because of it not sending power correctly to the pump during a cold start. HELP! HELP! bike in shop going on third month.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby ct1500 » Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:23 pm

Even after sitting for 3 weeks there would still be plenty of fuel left in carb bowls for an instant start up.

They need to keep guessing??? which gets you nowhere.
This is what I do
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please PM

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:44 am

Skinner wrote:The mystery continues, they checked the vacume fuel cut off valve (good) checked vac lines ( good) gas in carbs (good) checked kickstand switch again (good) checked spark we have spark, checked relay #3 (good) " here is what there next GUESS IS", and I quote:
It seems that the unit runs out of gas because of it not sending power correctly to the pump during a cold start. HELP! HELP! bike in shop going on third month.


That doesn't make sense. You said they already tried jumpering the fuel pump on, which should bypass this as an issue.

Have them pull the fuel lines off the petcock and connect them together, bypassing the petcock. That will eliminate (or identify) it as a source of the problem.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Mh434 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:25 pm

The pump is not required for starting - the bike will start, and run, for minute or two just on what's in the float chambers. Personally, I think WingAdmin is on to something...

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:20 pm

Thank you both,
I will get this question to the tech gang right away, please stand by for results, it takes a while.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby virgilmobile » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:53 pm

[quote= gas in carbs (good)

It seems that the unit runs out of gas because of it not sending power correctly to the pump during a cold start. [/quote]

The first statement negates the second.....
The carbs don't run out of gas in 2 days....unless.....

I have to follow the sequence of events to analyze this problem.

Am I correct on this...
1.Bike is due for a oil change but won't start due to a weak battery.
2.New battery installed and the bike starts right up.
3.Next day the bike starts and is dropped off for the oil change...
4.Now the bike will not start if left for a few days....
5.I "assume" this problem showed up right after the oil change and has always started fine before...

If I go by your first post,everything was great before the oil change and now there's a problem....A oil change won't cause this but a vacuum line pulled loose might.

What did the dealer do to the bike at this "oil change service".?
Anything other than replacing the oil and oil filter....Was anything else serviced.???


Now the questions...
1.Before the visit to the dealer,was the bike ridden regularly.
2.Did it have this "no start" problem before the dealer service.(is this a old problem or a new thing).
3.What does it take to get it to start.???? A bunch of cranking?..starting fluid.?? pulling it down the road..??Boosting the battery??? Praying to the Honda Gods :D .?
4. After it gets started,is it running the way it's suppose to..??
5.Are they any abnormal gassy smells after it's been shut down..??

I know..a lot of questions to answer.... Sorry.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:48 am

Virgil, First off I changed the oil, filters, plugs, BUT,BUT, before I did any of this I wanted to warm up the oil prior to the change, that's when she wouldn't start. Now some history on a great bike,she is ridden or started once a week,she starts every time with one hit of the button,no hard cranking,no gas smell, idle is right on,runs smooth, only start problems in the past has been due to a weak battery which has been replaced three times in 7 years.What is puzzling is the following, new battery/ starts,new fuel filter/ started, new kill switch/ started, rebuild carbs/started,new ecm connectors/ started, new fuel pump/ started, a few days later no start, she now sits and will not start, what the!!! As a side bar they did install a new battery, no luck.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:38 am

So the no start condition happend before any service was done and before it was taken to the dealer.
How did you get it to them.did the bike finally start and you drove it there?

What does it take to get it to run now??

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:00 pm

Virgil,
Thank god for bike insurance I had it hauled to the Honda Shop, For the last two weeks the bike will not start" crank yes" no start, we have spark, and new fuel pump,
they haven't gotten back to me on by passing the petcock, I will keep you posted .
I so thank you all for your help.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:11 pm

Ok.It does sound fuel related.Either too much(flooded)or not enough.
Should be easy to figure out.
We hope.
Personally,I'd pull a plug after an attempt to start it and smell if there's gas on it,then open the carb drain screw to see if there's fuel in the carb.
But that's just my way.
Let us know.

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:49 am

Thank you!
I will pass it on to the tech, hope for some feed back

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby Skinner » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:46 am

Up date from the shop, they have checked carbs, and vac lines as requested, here is the latest quote, Fuel is having trouble reaching the carbs due to the issue with the fuel pump priming, and keeping voltage to it while turning over?this is a new fuel pump. To be noted:: they had a new ECM on hand and swapped mine out, but that did not cure the problem, just eliminated another question.
I am ready to offer a reward for the first right answer,
HELP START MY BIKE!!!!!!

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Re: Starting problem 1996 Goldwing SE

Postby bstig60 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:04 am

Finding a new shop might help. This one doesn't seem to know much about the bike. As someone said, it takes 3 things for an engine to run; compression, fuel and spark. If you are missing any one of these it just won't run.
If the shop has determined that there is a lack of fuel due to power to the fuel pump?? That should tell them there is a wiring problem or a problem with a relay and they should be able to trace it back. To prove it is a problem with the fuel supply. Bypass the fuel pump and rig a fuel bottle supply direct to the carbs, if the fuel pump circuit is the problem, that should prove it as the bike should start every time.


Bill


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