Hot weather riding


Information and questions on GL1500 Goldwings (1988-2000)
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702scottc
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Hot weather riding

Postby 702scottc » Sun May 31, 2015 10:17 am



Just curious, what type of changes, if any do you do to prepare for the hot weather? I typically switch to 91 octane and add 3 oz of ATF to a tank more frequently, aside from that nothing different. I changed the spark plugs earlier this year to DPR8 -EA9 mainly because I had 2 sets left over from my 1100. Being thrifty and all..lol.The manual says to use them for high speed riding. Since I ride interstate 15 daily to and from work seemed prudent. Doesn't run any different with these plugs vs the others.. It was a pleasant 102 degrees on the ride home Friday, summer is here!



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RBGERSON
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had every year from 75 to 83

Re: Hot weather riding

Postby RBGERSON » Sun May 31, 2015 5:28 pm

20/50 oil for temps above 100..option
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
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otto1
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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby otto1 » Sun May 31, 2015 5:33 pm

Changing to high octane fuel is only helping the oil company. The gl is a low compression engine designed to run on 87 octane and anything more is just a waste of $$$$, so be thrifty..... :D .

Not quit sure what the ATF in the fuel is going to do ??? DO tell... Maybe smoke a little more.....I've always thought ATF went in transmissions..

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702scottc
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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby 702scottc » Sun May 31, 2015 6:13 pm

I use 89 octane fuel most of the year. 91 octane resists detonation better because it has a higher flash point. When the temperature out here is above the century mark I've always heard a little detonation using 89 octane, especially in the late afternoon riding home in traffic. Adding ATF to the fuel adds lubricity to already dry ethanol blended fuel and it also helps as an octane booster. The high detergent additives in ATF are also a fine fuel system cleaner, try it. A lot of folks add Marvel Mystery Oil, I found ATF a less expensive alternative. It doesn't smoke, you only add a couple of ounces to a tank. As far as the cost difference of 87 and 91 octane, it might cost a dollar more per tank, on a 500 mile ride I don't think an extra 5 bucks is a deal breaker. I only use the higher octane in summer, no benefit in winter or high altitudes.

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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby Uncle Fester » Sun May 31, 2015 11:05 pm

I understand what you are saying on the cost difference between octane levels. I deal with the same situation here in Oklahoma City. We have the option of 100% fuel ( no ethanol ) for ABOUT $.10 a gallon more, or about $.50 more a tank full, so why wouldn't I, right ?
I have heard of, but never tried, the Marvel Mystery Oil, ATF , Sea Foam, and a few others trick, maybe I will give it a shot one day. . .
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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby joeincalif » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:25 am

I have owned 7 Gold Wings, 1100, 1200, 3 1500's and 2 1800's NEVER added anything to any gas. Some manufacturers will tell you DO NOT any additives to the fuel as it can damage the fuel lines. Also always use 87 gas,
The only thing I did different between winter and summer was change the oil weight. I used a lighter weight in the winter.
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otto1
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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby otto1 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:18 pm

My rudimentary understanding of gasoline and octane rating is that octane has nothing to do with the volatility or flash point of the fuel. Octane controls detonation, the higher the octane the slower the detonation. Ambient air temp. should not effect the combustion process and create pinging. You have a liquid cooled engine that should be running within the specified heat ranges. If you are getting pinging with the recommended 87 octane fuel it may be something else like carbon build up, a lean fuel mixture, or a timing issue.

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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:01 pm

otto1 wrote:My rudimentary understanding of gasoline and octane rating is that octane has nothing to do with the volatility or flash point of the fuel. Octane controls detonation, the higher the octane the slower the detonation. Ambient air temp. should not effect the combustion process and create pinging. You have a liquid cooled engine that should be running within the specified heat ranges. If you are getting pinging with the recommended 87 octane fuel it may be something else like carbon build up, a lean fuel mixture, or a timing issue.


If the air/fuel mixture is already close to the flashpoint temperature, having a higher ambient temperature can definitely push it over that flashpoint and cause detonation. An engine that is running a specific fuel, at a specific load, could run fine at 60 degree ambient temperature, but at 85 degree ambient temperature, could be well into detonation. Both the intake air temperature as well as the temperature of the engine itself are raised, and both of these contribute to the raising of the air/fuel charge closer toward the flashpoint temperature.

As well, ambient humidity can have an effect. Increased humidity raises the charge density giving a less volatile mixture thus increasing the reaction time. Secondly, the increased humidity tends to cool the combustion chamber during the intake stroke lowering the internal temperatures. So an engine running a specific fuel at a specific load may run fine at 85 degrees ambient temperature in humid Florida, but in arid Arizona, at the same ambient temperature, could be pushed over the flashpoint into detonation.

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otto1
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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby otto1 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:59 pm

WingAdmin wrote:
otto1 wrote:My rudimentary understanding of gasoline and octane rating is that octane has nothing to do with the volatility or flash point of the fuel. Octane controls detonation, the higher the octane the slower the detonation. Ambient air temp. should not effect the combustion process and create pinging. You have a liquid cooled engine that should be running within the specified heat ranges. If you are getting pinging with the recommended 87 octane fuel it may be something else like carbon build up, a lean fuel mixture, or a timing issue.


If the air/fuel mixture is already close to the flashpoint temperature, having a higher ambient temperature can definitely push it over that flashpoint and cause detonation. An engine that is running a specific fuel, at a specific load, could run fine at 60 degree ambient temperature, but at 85 degree ambient temperature, could be well into detonation. Both the intake air temperature as well as the temperature of the engine itself are raised, and both of these contribute to the raising of the air/fuel charge closer toward the flashpoint temperature.

As well, ambient humidity can have an effect. Increased humidity raises the charge density giving a less volatile mixture thus increasing the reaction time. Secondly, the increased humidity tends to cool the combustion chamber during the intake stroke lowering the internal temperatures. So an engine running a specific fuel at a specific load may run fine at 85 degrees ambient temperature in humid Florida, but in arid Arizona, at the same ambient temperature, could be pushed over the flashpoint into detonation.


OK, what I was saying was in reference to the OP's comment about higher octane fuel having a higher flash point is incorrect.

The flash point of gasoline is a cool −43 °C (−45 °F), that's negative 43 C, and the autoignition point is 280 °C (536 °F). Average combustion chamber surface temperatures range from 130 degrees C (266F)to 248 degrees C(478F), while peak combustion chamber surface temperatures range from 142 degrees C(287F) to 258(496F) degrees C (496F) according to a test done by SAE international. Still not to the point of autoignition 280 °C (536 °F). Even with a high ambient air temp it is nowhere near the internal temps of the combustion chamber and the ambient air temp does not get added to chamber temp it should cool it down a little if anything. WingAdmin, it sounds to me like you are talking about preignition. Gasoline engines do not operate under compression ignition like a diesel that is why there is a spark plug to ignite the air/fuel mixture. If you have knocking due to preignition then something else is igniting the air/fuel mixture before the spark plug fires. If you are having a poor detonation problem then it is in the air/fuel mixture, or timing. SO I will stand and say there is something wrong with his bike if it is pinging with 87 octane fuel. I have ridden my wing(s) all over the USA in temps from 20 degrees F at 30% relative humidity to 115 degrees F with 70%+ humidity and low humidity of the southwest. I have always run 87 octane fuel even really crappy fuel from some questionable stations in the desert and I have never heard my bike(s) ping. Even at higher altitude around 10,000 feet or more there was no pinging but there was a lose of power at those heights do to the reduce Oxygen in the atmosphere and the CV carbs adjusting to it.


Def: flash point of a volatile material is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air.

Def: autoignition temperature or kindling point of a substance is the lowest temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition, such as a flame or spark.

Def: Pre-ignition (or preignition) in a spark-ignition engine is a technically different phenomenon from engine knocking, and describes the event wherein the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. Pre-ignition is initiated by an ignition source other than the spark, such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events.

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702scottc
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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby 702scottc » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:59 pm

There is less heat energy in higher octane gasoline, and it does have a higher flash point. Octane by definition is the resistance to pre-ignite.You also have to factor in the 10 percent ethanol that's in the fuel. Ethanol has a lower flash point than unblended gasoline. These factors with high ambient temperatures, heat from the engine, and road surface temperatures can and do cause preignition. The preignition isn't constant, typically after sitting 4-5 minutes waiting for a light to change it will chuggle a bit when you take off. The tune on my engine is near perfect. I'm sure any of your bikes would experience the same symptoms in the same environment. Hot,dry air will test any bike.

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otto1
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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby otto1 » Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:51 pm

I think you are confusing flash point with autoignition point see definitions in my previous post. the flash point of gasoline is negative 45 degrees F the flash point of ethenol is 63 degreesF. So that makes the gasoline a considerable lower flash point than ethenol. And if blended would creat a higher flash point as a blend. My understanding is that higher octane does not effect flash point or volitility of gasoline it controls detonation. If you are getting preignition you have reached the temperature of autoignition before the plug fires and the flash point has nothing to do with autoignition..if you have an engine autoigniting fuel, which is preignition then you have a problem somewhere.

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702scottc
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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby 702scottc » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:12 am

I get what you are saying, I may be mistaking vapor temperature and boiling temperature for flash point. Since gasoline vapor temp is around 100 degrees or less and it boils at around 140 or so. It stands to reason that a hot engine with high ambient temps will ignite a vapor well before the piston sees TDC. Anti-knock compounds are added to try and control this but a higher octane rated fuel will resist detonation better than lower octane fuel. In lower temperature regions of the country this really isn't an issue, especially since a humid air mass tends to cool the air/ fuel charge. Drag racers have used cooling cans for decades to keep the fuel colder. If temperature isn't an issue then why use them? Because hot,vaporized fuel will cause detonation regardless of engine compression ratio. Obviously, carbon deposits will make the problem worse. There is an article in this months newsletter regarding top tier gasoline. My bike runs fine on 87-89 octane fuel in winter, but come summer 91 makes a huge difference whether you think it does or not.I'm native to southern Nevada and I know it does.

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Re: Hot weather riding

Postby raven41951 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:25 am

You are also forgetting the compression. Pressure affects the flashpoints as well. This is a low compression engine.




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