starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button


Information and questions on GL1500 Goldwings (1988-2000)
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beachdave
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starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby beachdave » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:56 pm



Help
I have a 2000 gl 1500
It runs great but
When i am trying to start it it will not fire as long as I am holding down the start button
I can always get it ztarted by just touching the starter and then letting off
It seems like the starter is consuming all of the power that is needed by the coil packs to fire
I am not a dummy but have not had a goldwing before and don't want to spend a bunch of time stripping the farings off for somthing as simple as a relay that is not powering up the coils while the starter is engaged
Thank for any input.



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demac1763
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Motorcycle: 1999 GL1500 SE 50th anniversary Pearl Green 44K Miles

1991 gl1500 aspencade 29k miles black 10 year anniversary edition number 000649 (sold)

Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby demac1763 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:14 am

I have 99 se and it is doing the same thing, I checked the voltage of the battery and it showed 12.2 volts. I read where that is too low to start the bike until you release the button which then gives it the little bit it needs to start. I put my battery tender on it and charged it till fully charged, It then showed 13.2 volts and the bike stared right up as normal. I checked the water and left it on the tender and I will disconnect it this coming wed. when Im off and see what it does then. Try checking your battery voltage and let me know if yours is the same as mine and we both may learn something :D
Life is short, and time flies, So enjoy what you do and have fun!!!!

beachdave
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby beachdave » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:21 am

Mine was doing it when I bought it
I put a new battery in it yesterday.
Was thinking the same thing.
I put a timing light on mine to verify that it was not firing while holding down the starter button.
I am thinking it's a relay
the bike should go closed loop system while the starter button is pushed and then return to open loop system when released
I should have some time tonight to work through it.
Keep you posted

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virgilmobile
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby virgilmobile » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:32 am

Measure the battery volts DURING cranking.
If it falls much below 10.5 volts,the ignition computer will have a hard time.
Do also clean the battery post contacts.
My 88 cranks pretty good all the way down to 8 volts at the battery,just no spark.
I'm not positive where the computer starts to fail.I'm guessing around 10.25 volts at the module.

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demac1763
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby demac1763 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:35 am

That would be great if you have time tonight, I am working 3rd tonight and can't mess with mine until tomorrow. Anything you can find out will be very much appreciated. I was going to post the same question when I saw your post. Good luck and thanks
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demac1763
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby demac1763 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:38 am

I will try that tomorrow and see what mine is measuring. I'll post the results thank you
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joeincalif
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby joeincalif » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:45 am

The battery is weak. get a new battery and it will be fine. Happens a lot on 1500 wings when the battery starts to go bad.
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WingAdmin
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby WingAdmin » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:25 am

This question has been asked (and answered) so many times here, I'm pretty sure you didn't do a search first. :)

Your battery is weak and either needs to be charged, or more likely replaced.

The GL1500 takes a ton of power to start, and when you are using up all the power in a weak battery just to crank the engine over, there's none left to ignite the spark. When you let go of the starter, the huge power drain from the starter goes away and there is now enough power to start making a strong spark. Because the engine is still spinning (from momentum), it lights off and starts.

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demac1763
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1991 gl1500 aspencade 29k miles black 10 year anniversary edition number 000649 (sold)

Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby demac1763 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:57 pm

Thanks WingAdmin, I had a gut feeling that would be the case. I checked the cells in mine today and all of them were dry. I topped off with distilled water and have it on a tender plus now. If it doesn't hold the full charge Ill get a new one. That sounds a lot better than replacing modules and other computer problems I know nothing about.
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beachdave
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby beachdave » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:59 pm

OK
got mine fixed
these are not battery problems that all you guys are having.
I have a new battery in my bike.
I have 12.82 at the battery before starting
12.13 at the battery
with the starter ingaged
after dismantling the bike to get to the coils in front of the air breather.
12.24 to the coils with out the bike running.
6.82 while the starter is in gaged
and 11.91 while the bike is running.
The 11.91 was while battery is now reading 13.4 engine running.
Honda is right very robust ignition system.
But not big enough wire to keep it powered up.
even while engine is stopped and no draw on from the coils there is 1/2 volt of loss.
With the engine running and the robust coils now drawing load 3 and 1\2 volts of loss.
This is due to small wire size in the system.

The fool proof fix.
I put a relay on mine today
I connected the hot wire (witch is direct from my battery) on my cigarette lighter to one leg of the relay. The other side to the power wires to the coils.
One to the ground. And one to the start button.
Now when I hit the start button the relay feeds a good solid 12 volts to the coils.
I have read on here about the 1 revolution before it will start.
that's bs .
it will start every time
with just a touch of the button.
talk about saving the starter life also.
much less all you guys having to plug yours in because they used too small of wire to run the coils.
hope this helps

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virgilmobile
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:16 am

Your fix is good.
I'm just a bit concerned about the voltage drop while its running.My 88 had a bit more than I expected too.My thought was similar about the wiring size,but I also contributed some of it to the switching contacts that power has to go through.eg.kill switch,bank angle sensor,main relay.
I used a similar method with the relay..with one exception..I disconnected the coils and ignition module from the harness and attached to the relay....I used the harness to operate the relay.
Turn on the key and battery power is fed direct to the ignition system.The bike operates the relay(all safety systems).
The power to the ignition system never drops below battery volts.
As far as a delayed spark...I did confirm this in a video I posted here.It does take at least one full revolution of the crankshaft before the computer can determine the spark.
This happens very fast tho.with a good system,perhaps 1/2 second.
I'd still suggest looking into the voltage drop you have.Its a bit much.I'm concerned that one day it may get worse while your out and about.we both know if the volts drop much further,the ignition will start to fail.

kybigmac
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby kybigmac » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:31 pm

It seems more temperature related to me than anything else in my case . Mine in the winter is hard to start,I have to keep the battery tender on it even with a new battery. It doesn't get cranked every week and when I go start it it can be hard to start,but once it warms up it cranks normally. In the summer it cranks normally in the morning and once it's warm you almost can't get your finger off the button fast enough!

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demac1763
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby demac1763 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:15 pm

That seems to be my situation too. Cold it starts after earning up and turning off and waiting it takes a few cranks to fire
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WingAdmin
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby WingAdmin » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:11 pm

beachdave wrote:I have read on here about the 1 revolution before it will start.
that's bs .
it will start every time
with just a touch of the button.
talk about saving the starter life also.
much less all you guys having to plug yours in because they used too small of wire to run the coils.
hope this helps


It's not "BS" - it's by design. :)

The four-cylinder wings use pulse generators, which generate a pulse when the engine is at the exact correct position for a spark to occur. There is no computer involved - the pulse generator says "spark" and the plugs spark.

On the GL1500, there is a trigger wheel, right behind the crank:

Trigger Wheel
Trigger Wheel


Notice the single missing tooth. The GL1500's computer controls the spark, not pulse generators. The thing is, the computer must know where in the cycle the engine rotation is, so that it can cause the spark to occur at the correct time. It does this by watching the little teeth on this trigger wheel move past a trigger wheel sensor. It expects to see a tooth move past at a given speed, generating regular pulses. When it suddenly sees a missing pulse, it knows that the missing tooth just went past. It now knows what position the engine is in, and so it can now start generating spark.

When you hit that starter button, it MUST crank first in order to see that missing tooth before it will begin lighting off the spark plugs. This is why the GL1500 cranks momentarily before starting, even with the strongest battery, while the four-cylinder Wings start literally the instant you touch the starter button.

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virgilmobile
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:17 pm

And here's video proof of this.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10282&p=49127

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OldZX11Rider
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby OldZX11Rider » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:26 pm

Mine also would not start until I let off the button. But then the previous owner said it may be due for a new battery.
When it's cold it don't want to start, but after getting it started and riding any little distance, it'll pop right off while holding the button.
First time I checked the battery, every cell was low on water, a couple were way way low on water.
It got easier to start after I started using a battery tender. Now it's winterized and the weather is warming up. Just temporarily, I suspect. :(
Oh, in the summer, the PO told me not to use any choke when I start it, is that fairly semi sorta normal on a 1500?
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virgilmobile
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby virgilmobile » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:03 pm

Every engine and the conditions that it is started varies.
Fuel evaporation,air density,etc,etc can affect just how fast the engine will get the right fuel/air/compression/spark combinations to fire off.
This seems to be most apparent on carb models.
The advent of multiport fuel injection has reduced this affect.
Remember the 60's cars...used to have pull the choke and pump the pedal ( hoping you didn't flood it) then crank with your fingers crossed.

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BikerBuck
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby BikerBuck » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:02 am

Virgil, where did you disconnect the harness for the relay modification. A schematic will do. I've made this change on a 1100 but just bought a 1500 and haven't figured all the electrical systems out yet. Definitely more complicated but a fun puzzle. Thanks. Great site!

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dingdong
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby dingdong » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:55 am

One other "easy" solution to this problem is installing an AGM style battery. The engine will crank over much faster compared to a lead acid battery. Even my 76 starter spins faster since I installed an AGM.
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virgilmobile
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby virgilmobile » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:10 am

BikerBuck wrote:Virgil, where did you disconnect the harness for the relay modification. A schematic will do. I've made this change on a 1100 but just bought a 1500 and haven't figured all the electrical systems out yet. Definitely more complicated but a fun puzzle. Thanks. Great site!


I have just my phone to work with so no schematic BUT.
On my 88,the 12 volt feed to the coils is located at a plug on the right side toward the front of the bike.Its a black/white wire.I cut it loose there and fed the coils from the relay.
The ignition module also has the same color wire.I cut the wire. I added the module power to the relay (same wire feeding the coil)and used the harness wire to operate the relay.Added the ground for the relay.
Now when I turn on the key,the relay clicks on(from the poor harness wiring) and applies battery volts direct to the module and coils.
Fuse protected at 15 amp.
My ignition system no longer suffers from any voltage drop from the main relay contacts,kill switch or bank angle sensor system.
Be aware that mine is a 88.
I can't verify the wiring of another model,but Honda usually maintains the same color codes.

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BikerBuck
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby BikerBuck » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:26 pm

Thanks Virgil, I own a 98se and working on my brother's 2000se. Planned on changing both. I know where that connection is on the schematic l just haven't opened up the bike yet. Should be an easy update. Thanks for the info!

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demac1763
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby demac1763 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:19 pm

Wingadmin, I took your advice and put in a new battery, and want you to know it fires up perfect now. After sitting off the battery tender for a couple of days now it is still instant starting and strong. The small wire subject still may be an issue with these later model bikes, buy for now I think my problem is cured. Thank you all for the info..
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby Hodgy » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:50 am

.

I have a 97' SE and I sometimes have the start on release situation, but not often. Couple of questions for the contributors.


1 -- where did you locate the fuse and relay ?

2 -- do any of you have photos of this fix ?

3 -- is there another way to increase the wire gauge without using a relay ? These bikes have enough complexity already.


Thanks to all.

.

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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby WingAdmin » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:06 am

Hodgy wrote:.

I have a 97' SE and I sometimes have the start on release situation, but not often. Couple of questions for the contributors.


1 -- where did you locate the fuse and relay ?

2 -- do any of you have photos of this fix ?

3 -- is there another way to increase the wire gauge without using a relay ? These bikes have enough complexity already.


Thanks to all.

.


The relay can, in some cases be a contributing factor, but far and away the most common cause of this issue is simply a weak battery.

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urbanmadness
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Re: starter turns over but no fire until I let off the button

Postby urbanmadness » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:13 am

Is there a relay that controls the ignition system? My buddies does this, even with a new battery. If it does have a relay to control "turn on " the ignition coils, if the contacts get a little dirty, I could see it not putting out enough voltage to the coils to fire.

Just a thought. I'm sure Wingadmin will step in and tell me if it's "so". It could be I've never noticed his when it's acting perfect, only when it acts up.

My bike, fires off almost instantly. I'm sure it goes thru one rev as wingadmin says, but then whoom (and that's almost the sound it makes too...LOL), shes running. Easiest starting bike I've ever had.




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