surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE


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the draggin
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Motorcycle: 1998 Goldwing SE
1997 Harley FLHTCUI

surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:53 pm



I have read just about all the information available here and finally pulled the carbs to check for vacuum hose leaks, and found absolutely nothing wrong. Vacuum hoses are soft and flexible but not mush. I have run seafoam through it but it didn't help. Looked the carbs over, cleaned throttle plates and slides, checked slide diaphragms all good. I checked the petcock valve before I decided to pull carbs and it was good. I checked the fuel filter and it is clear and clean. Fuel lines are in good condition no evidence of deterioration inside the fuel lines. I am as about as frustrated as I want to be with this issue. I don't have a 1998 service manual so I might be missing something in the 1988 manual I have. The carbs are definitely different and as far as setting up the air/fuel adjustments there are some weird shaped screws where adjusters screws would normally be on normal carbs so it looks like it would require a special tool to balance the carbs. This thing may be going the way of the Dodo bird if I can't get it straightened out. I thought wings were supposed to be the best bike ever made, ain't proved crap to me. Just another two wheeled POS.



DigitalBay
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby DigitalBay » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:17 am

the draggin...

I have a 1993 GL1500A Aspencade with this same problem.

SKIP DOWN TO SKIP TO POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS...
The back story is that I have driven the bike only a few miles since 2009. Each season I would start the bike on bad gas and then had to pump out and refill the gas and change the spark plugs after I fouled them. Stupid I know. It took me 4 years to get up the nerve to change my own brake pads. Then I developed overheating problems in the spring of last year. I did not want to spend the money to have someone else fix it so it sat again and the gas got bad again. This year I decided that fixing the brakes went so well that I tore into the bike. I discovered that the "Leveling tube" was broken off at the top of the coolant overflow tank. That is rubber connector to the 90 degree elbow on the exchange tube between the overflow tank and the radiator, only 7 bucks to replace. I changed the DOT4 in the front brake, rear brake and the clutch, changed the oil in the rear drive gear, changed the oil, changed the plugs, pumped out all the gas and regassed her with 93 octane, buffed her and gave her two coats of wax. (whew!)

I HAVE THE SAME IDLE/SURGE PROBLEM.

Mine is worse than yours. It would not even run without throttling fuel at all times. With the throttle held steady, it would surge from 2000-3500 RPMs. If it dropped below 2000 it would stall. I put in 4 ounces of Seafoam. Nothing. in fact, I was afraid that I did not get all the fuel out the first time so I pumped it out again and filled it with Zero Ethinol (E-0) gas 90 Octane and added 4 oz. of Seafoam. Barely discernably better. I kept it running by throttling it until it was up to running temp then I would let it cool down and do it again. Each time it would be a little better but no where near normal.

At this point, the riding experience was mixed. My pick-up power was and is amazing and the surging is only minutely detected at full operating speeds. however, I could not keep it running when stopping and take off was jumpy and dangerous. Not only did the bike require throttling to keep it running, but the low end power was terrible, AND it surges. I looked like a first timer out there. If I wasn't stalling I has hanging on for dear life. So far I've kept it out of the ditch. :shock:

I called my Dealership and asked if I needed to have the carbs rebuilt. They said that I should keep running it and that I should not need it if I notice that it starts to get better over a couple of tanks of gas.

At the end of my second tank, I was able to control my low end take offs much better but it still would not idle with out throttling. Somewhere along the way I had cranked the idle knob up (clockwise) as far as it would go.

HERE IS WHAT I DID...
At the end of the second tank, I put in 1 gallon of gas, and one whole can of Seafoam. It got slightly better but nothing drastic. So now I am feeling drastic. I had tried something a bit radical once before and decided it was time to get crazy. That's when I added to my 1 gallon of gas and 1 can of seafoam... ONE WHOLE CAN OF PB B'LASTER PENETRANT. Yep. you read that correctly.

I cannot believe that this concoction didn't turn my bike into a modern warfare smoke screen mega-weapon. Amazingly, it did not smoke at all. I threw a gas can in the trunk and hit the road. I ran it up to running temp, turned her off, purposefully flooded the carburetor with 20 full throttle pumps then let it cool down completely. Then, I took it out on the road and put as much load on the bike as I could in first, second and third gear, (rather than speed). I repeatedly slowed down and then accelerated fast and hard. Usually in the same gear, depending on the speed limit. After about an hour and a half I still hadn't run out of gas so I hit the highway for about 15 minutes till she ran dry. I put in a little gas then went and filled up with 93 Octane.

That made it much better. I finally got it to idle without throttling but it is still underpowered and surging from 750 to 1500 RPMs. I can also run it in any gear with no throttle but it surges and sputters. It feels like it stalls but the warning light are not lighting up so it is not quite stalling out.

It is not cured but it is much better. I may repeat the process at the end of this tank full. At least it is not so dangerous on take off as it was. I do miss my perfectly running machine.

IF SEVERAL TANKS AND ADDITIVES DONT WORK...

I hope I do not have to do this but there is a possible solution at http://www.goldwingowners.com/forums/18-engine-work/54410-gl1500-surging-problem-one-solution.html (Please don't let it be that!) It's less than $35 but they say it ain't easy. I will let you know how my next couple of tanks and treatments go.

the draggin... I feel your pain.

Kevin

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joeincalif
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby joeincalif » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:03 am

I thought wings were supposed to be the best bike ever made, ain't proved crap to me. Just another two wheeled POS.
It's a 98 so it's 18 years old. How long have you owned it? If your not the original owner you have no idea of how it was treated in the past. It's a machine, so things will happen. I had a 92 and in 108,000 miles the only thing I had to do except regular services was replace the alternator brushes one time. I have owned 7 Gold Wing and never had a problem with anyof them. You just got one that maybe didn't have good service. Hope you do find the problem and get it fixed. Please keep us posted on your progress
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby chads920 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:37 am

I had, I say again had, a similar problem with sputtering once the engine reached operating temp. I changed the water temp sensor located in front in the manifold.. that helped ($34.00 Cdn). Then I purchased a good set of vacuum gauges and synced the carbs (all explained in the Service Manual) and that made a big difference ($340.00 Cdn).. runs smooth as butter, no sputtering, increased milage and power. I also flushed the rad (see service manual) which made a difference to the normal operating temp. Water temp has an effect on the air/fuel mix as well as the on going fuel mix and amount during operation (service manual again). I discovered that with minimal tools and the availability of a reasonable work area the owner can do a lot to keep the bike maintained and running as would be expected. I suggest that you find a service manual for your bike year and model, it makes for good reading and goes some distance in explaining away some of the issues associated with the "machine" which has way to many moving parts connected by miles of wire and stuff
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DigitalBay
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby DigitalBay » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:03 am

Here is another idea on how to fix this posted by GLRT... http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33357

It involves plugging the vacuum tube located inside the top of each carburetor. Interestingly, I watched this video just yesterday:





The 1988 GL1500 owner has the same problem and demonstrates how it runs properly when he puts his finger over the vacuum intake tube inside the top of each carburetor. He is not offering it as a solution but asking why does that fix the problem. The video makes it clear where to find the easily accessible tubes after removing only the air filter. He says his is missing on the right side. I don't think mine is a miss but a "fuel mix and carburetor re-adjusting the fuel/air mix" issue. (I'm not a mechanic... just willing to ruin anything with a wrench :D )

UPDATE: NEXT DAY...
I am not idling today. I must have had the throttle lock slightly engaged yesterday or something. Today, with the throttle lock, I can get the machine down to 1200 surging to 2000-2500 RPMs. In about a minute, it will drop a couple of times to 750 then the 3rd time to about 500 and then it stalls.

DigitalBay
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby DigitalBay » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:20 am

Repost of YouTube link (copy and paste at YouTube)... youtu.be/s0Mwo8xd8qc

QUESTION for chads920: My problem seems to be identical when hot or cold with the exception that when it is cold my bottom RPMs with steady throttle is about 2200. In light of the same behavior hot and cold is it possible that it is NOT the water temp sensor nor the "Water Pipe" as described in the link of my earlier post?

I have drained/flushed/refilled my cooling system with non-silicate 50/50 coolant.

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby chads920 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:44 pm

yes its possible, just mentioned it as the temp or rather that sensor has a role with regard to the fuel mix and carb response.
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the draggin
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:55 pm

Yesterday we went for a ride and it seemed okay, but about half way to my destination the sputter returned and remained until about half way back home when all of the sudden it started to smooth out. During the trip I had some rather steep, long hills to climb and it seemed to have no power couldn't get to 55. So today I pulled the carbs and found the right slide diaphragm had a tear in it so I ordered a complete/master carb kit and we will delve into the unknown and see it we can get it straightened out. Thanks for all the replies and help, I do appreciate your patience with these issues.

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby FM-USA » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:13 am

the draggin wrote: ... found the right slide diaphragm had a tear in it so I ordered a complete/master carb kit and we will delve into the unknown and see it we can get it straightened out. Thanks for all the replies and help, I do appreciate your patience with these issues.

Looking forward to reading your repair and HOPEFULLY the fix.
"OIL CHANGE?" _FM 07-2009
Know its new taste and be loyal, you'll know when to change that oil.
Taste testing as the miles flow, souring as that acid grows.
And don't flirt with dirt or darkened oil, all the faster your engine will spoil.

the draggin
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:17 pm

got the power back but have developed a part throttle stumble. Have pulled the carbs and found the new slide/diaphragms were not the same length as the old ones. They were longer so I followed virgilmobiles' advice and installed an o-ring approximately .030 thick to set the depth where the old ones were. Still have the stumble. Readjusted the air/fuel mixture and have reduced the severity of the stumble. I have the left carb at one turn from bottom-out. Right carb is at about two and a half turns out, this does not seem right, something ain't right.

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:41 pm

So after much consternation and aggravation I have the idle air mixtures screws set at 5 1/2 turns out and the stumble issue is improving, but something in my mind says this is just too many turns out. Perhaps I should have put bigger jets in or something. Will keep you posted.

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby FM-USA » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:17 pm

.

. . . we're watching and hoping for the best. ;)
"OIL CHANGE?" _FM 07-2009
Know its new taste and be loyal, you'll know when to change that oil.
Taste testing as the miles flow, souring as that acid grows.
And don't flirt with dirt or darkened oil, all the faster your engine will spoil.

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby spiralout » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:48 pm

the draggin wrote:... I have the idle air mixtures screws set at 5 1/2 turns out and the stumble issue is improving, but something in my mind says this is just too many turns out. Perhaps I should have put bigger jets in or something. Will keep you posted.

It is to far out. Are you sure your accel pump is squirting well?

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:13 am

Oh yeah, I have it set very tight and man does it squirt. Exhaust smells pretty clean and idle id dead on at 800. I'm beginning to think it may be an ignition issue, like maybe a weak coil or something really stupid that needs cleaned or tightened.

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby FM-USA » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:16 am

the draggin wrote:Oh yeah, I have it set very tight and man does it squirt. Exhaust smells pretty clean and idle id dead on at 800. I'm beginning to think it may be an ignition issue, like maybe a weak coil or something really stupid that needs cleaned or tightened.

I'd go with that. How's your grounds?
NO-no, not coffee. THAT'S grounds for divorce.
:lol:
"OIL CHANGE?" _FM 07-2009
Know its new taste and be loyal, you'll know when to change that oil.
Taste testing as the miles flow, souring as that acid grows.
And don't flirt with dirt or darkened oil, all the faster your engine will spoil.

the draggin
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:02 pm

Coffee is always fresh and as far as the others have no need for them and then there's the electrical kind we'll be looking into.

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:20 pm

So I finally broke down and took it to a shop, and they said, after I explained everything that it was doing and what was done to fix it, and looking at it them selves, replace the carbs they probably have some junk stuck in places we can't get to. Greaaaat.

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby FM-USA » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:32 pm

the draggin wrote:So I finally broke down and took it to a shop, and they said, after I explained everything that it was doing and what was done to fix it, and looking at it them selves, replace the carbs they probably have some junk stuck in places we can't get to. Greaaaat.

MAN-O-MAN, that's sounds like a LOADED two faced, fork tongued answer just to unload you of a LOT of dough. :shock:
And if the carb fix does not take care of the issue, you hand wrote on the work order they are to reimburse you all that money? You can do that, they don't have to accept it, but if they don't then they DON'T know what they're doing, that are JUST guessing.

"Half way to 'x' it ran fine."
On the way home it started running good.

Your symptoms sound like a part time bad sensor. Something is warming up to operating temperature and sometimes working.
Now I'm guessing just like that that shop. LOTS of small unmarked bills will be fine. :twisted:
"OIL CHANGE?" _FM 07-2009
Know its new taste and be loyal, you'll know when to change that oil.
Taste testing as the miles flow, souring as that acid grows.
And don't flirt with dirt or darkened oil, all the faster your engine will spoil.

the draggin
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:34 pm

The guy at the shop was pretty straight up about it and he didn't charge me for anything and he only recommended I find a good set on ebay or craigslist and go through them and see what happens.

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby FM-USA » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:34 pm

the draggin wrote:The guy at the shop was pretty straight up about it and he didn't charge me for anything and he only recommended I find a good set on ebay or craigslist and go through them and see what happens.

My ego isn't bruised if and when I'm wrong, it can happen. For your wallets sake, I hope he's right.
"OIL CHANGE?" _FM 07-2009
Know its new taste and be loyal, you'll know when to change that oil.
Taste testing as the miles flow, souring as that acid grows.
And don't flirt with dirt or darkened oil, all the faster your engine will spoil.

the draggin
Posts: 30
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:00 am

Yeah, me too. But I took them down again and redid every step and added a water test to check the idle and low speed ports in the barrel of the carb just above and below the throttle plates and I got four jets of water out of them that looks good so far and while I was cleaning the jets themselves and the galleries that they feed through I got a tiny little piece of some slimey substance out of the right carb primary jet tube. Need to road test now but it is threatening rain so maybe later we will find out if it is fixed.

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FM-USA
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iRide 24/365 99% SmileMiles
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby FM-USA » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:41 pm

the draggin wrote:Yeah, me too. But I took them down again and redid every step and added a water test to check the idle and low speed ports in the barrel of the carb just above and below the throttle plates and I got four jets of water out of them that looks good so far and while I was cleaning the jets themselves and the galleries that they feed through I got a tiny little piece of some slimey substance out of the right carb primary jet tube. Need to road test now but it is threatening rain so maybe later we will find out if it is fixed.

WHOOOooooo that slimy opaque stuff... had it in our coffee maker.
Came out in one loooOOoog string, nearly a foot. WHOOOoEEUUUK! :x
That was the reason for the ever so slow perk time. Hopefully it's yours too... on the bike that is.
"OIL CHANGE?" _FM 07-2009
Know its new taste and be loyal, you'll know when to change that oil.
Taste testing as the miles flow, souring as that acid grows.
And don't flirt with dirt or darkened oil, all the faster your engine will spoil.

the draggin
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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby the draggin » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:06 pm

Still being frustrated by this thing. I was very closely observing the carbs at idle and noticed fuel bleeding from the diaphragm needle, is this normal? I never notice this with my vertical Mikuni carbs on any of my Harleys and they all ran Mikunis because the Keihin could not feed the beasts. Now when I measured the length of the replacement diaphragm/slide units they were about .030 taller than the originals so I put and o-ring on the slide so it would not sit too deep in the bore but on another thread virgilmobil did the same thing and had no issues by his account so maybe I didn't need to do this?

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Re: surgeing idle/sputtering 1998 SE

Postby vict » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:13 am

I have a 1989 1500 that hesitates when moving from a stop. I do not have the surging issues. I add about 3 ounces of Seafoam and about the same amount of Marvel Mystery oil to a full tank of mid grade gas and do not have the hesitation issue. I do not know why,but it works on my bike.




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