89 Gl1500 no spark


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virgilmobile
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by virgilmobile » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:36 pm



Question.When you check the voltage..is it using your meter probes touching both the battery posts?One on the negative lug and the other on the positive lug.
This first isolates the battery voltage during cranking from the rest of the bike.
As always..start with a fully charged battery.
With a good battery,normal cranking drain can drop at the posts to 11 to 11.8 volts.
If it stays up ok,the starter is not at fault.If it drops into the 9.5 range at the battery do suspect the starter dragging.
There not too difficult to get out either.
Ya just gotta get a really long extension to get to the bolts then rotate it out of the battery area.
As far as voltage drop problems..you must first identify where it is.We have very specific testing methods for this and fixes too. My 88 with. WM cheap battery had almost a 3 volt drop between the battery and the ignition coil.Very poor spark and hard to start.



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Erdeniz Umman
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:50 pm

I did that modification on my bike 18 months ago, and there is no problem so far.

You probably couldn't connect the relay correctly or never connected. The relay should kill the bike when the kill switch is off or ignition key off as in the original configuration.

Please check the link that I have given, once more.
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-g ... olved.html

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DarrellFields
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by DarrellFields » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:26 pm

Erdeniz Umman wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:50 pm
I did that modification on my bike 18 months ago, and there is no problem so far.

You probably couldn't connect the relay correctly or never connected. The relay should kill the bike when the kill switch is off or ignition key off as in the original configuration.

Please check the link that I have given, once more.
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-g ... olved.html
I used the wrong kind of relay. It was a 3 prong relay instead of a 4 prong. One thing you didnt specify is whether you cut the original wire for the ecu or just tapped in in parallel. Thank you for your help it has been Very enlightening.
I just tapped the wire in in parallel by the easy to get to plug and was tapped in off of the 55a. By the batt. Do you happen to have any pics of where you tapped in at? I dont have the factory service manual. All i have is a haynes manual and while it has alot in it i can't seem to find the connector plug numbers in it.
I am also really starting to wonder if I even tapped in at the right place or not.
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:31 am

DarrellFields wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:26 pm
I used the wrong kind of relay. It was a 3 prong relay instead of a 4 prong. One thing you didnt specify is whether you cut the original wire for the ecu or just tapped in in parallel. Thank you for your help it has been Very enlightening.
I just tapped the wire in in parallel by the easy to get to plug and was tapped in off of the 55a. By the batt. Do you happen to have any pics of where you tapped in at? I dont have the factory service manual. All i have is a haynes manual and while it has alot in it i can't seem to find the connector plug numbers in it.
I am also really starting to wonder if I even tapped in at the right place or not.
The pictures were given in that link, but here they are once more. You should cut the wire, otherwise you will feed the relay coils continuosly and you can not kill the bike.

The logic here is, using the wire coming from the kill switch as a triggering voltage for the relay coil, and providing a full battery power through the 55A and a 15A fuse to the ECU/ICU and ignition coils when the relay is triggered.
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DarrellFields
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by DarrellFields » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:35 pm

Erdeniz Umman wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:31 am
DarrellFields wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:26 pm
I used the wrong kind of relay. It was a 3 prong relay instead of a 4 prong. One thing you didnt specify is whether you cut the original wire for the ecu or just tapped in in parallel. Thank you for your help it has been Very enlightening.
I just tapped the wire in in parallel by the easy to get to plug and was tapped in off of the 55a. By the batt. Do you happen to have any pics of where you tapped in at? I dont have the factory service manual. All i have is a haynes manual and while it has alot in it i can't seem to find the connector plug numbers in it.
I am also really starting to wonder if I even tapped in at the right place or not.
The pictures were given in that link, but here they are once more. You should cut the wire, otherwise you will feed the relay coils continuosly and you can not kill the bike.

The logic here is, using the wire coming from the kill switch as a K8ktriggering voltage for the relay coil, and providing a full battery power through the 55A and a 15A fuse to the ECU/ICU and ignition coils when the relay is triggered.

Ok. I went out and looked the bike over and it looks like some things might be a little bit different on my 89. Some of the plug setups and layouts. Also it looks like my ecu is located in the right pocket where you have your relay at. Here are some pics of what im working with. I couldn't find the red plug with the grey wire but i Did recheck the pulse generators and they were good. Right around 4.65 and 4.59 ohms. I know our time differences make this interesting to go back and forth. Thank you Very much for all your help it is Greatly appreciated
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Main coil plug?
Main coil plug?


Over my right fan
Over my right fan


Right fairing pocket
Right fairing pocket


Where i originally tapped in to add power. The attached wire goes to a digital voltmeter to tell me where i am at
Where i originally tapped in to add power. The attached wire goes to a digital voltmeter to tell me where i am at


Neg ground terminal on batt. Crimped And soldered
Neg ground terminal on batt. Crimped And soldered

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Erdeniz Umman
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:44 pm

You are careful to notice that gray wire. That was black/wht originally. I needed to replace the terminal and used that wire when crimping the new one.

It is the red 9pin C57 connector seen between the brown and the black connector in the 2nd picture above.

And that black/wht wire goes to two places, to the C54 connector that is seen in your 4th picture above, and to the ICU.

Your bike has two separate units, Ignition Control Unit and Carburettor Control Unit, while the later models have only ECU to adjust the ignition timing and fuel/air ratio.

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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:30 pm

You can see the connectors in the following diagram.
Here is the ignition diagram for 89 models.
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DarrellFields
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by DarrellFields » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:13 pm

virgilmobile wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:36 pm
Question.When you check the voltage..is it using your meter probes touching both the battery posts?One on the negative lug and the other on the positive lug.
This first isolates the battery voltage during cranking from the rest of the bike.
As always..start with a fully charged battery.
With a good battery,normal cranking drain can drop at the posts to 11 to 11.8 volts.
If it stays up ok,the starter is not at fault.If it drops into the 9.5 range at the battery do suspect the starter dragging.
There not too difficult to get out either.
Ya just gotta get a really long extension to get to the bolts then rotate it out of the battery area.
As far as voltage drop problems..you must first identify where it is.We have very specific testing methods for this and fixes too. My 88 with. WM cheap battery had almost a 3 volt drop between the battery and the ignition coil.Very poor spark and hard to start.
I checked with my multimeter on the battery posts as well as a volt meter i tapped into the coil wire. I will try to check at the starter tomorrow evening when i get home. I will be gone all day and wont have a chance to chec it until then. Thank you very much for the heads up. Something is definitely causing too much drain when i hit the starter. Im sure its something stupid simple that im overlooking. I will let you know what i find out as soon as i test it
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DarrellFields
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by DarrellFields » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:17 pm

Erdeniz Umman wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:44 pm
You are careful to notice that gray wire. That was black/wht originally. I needed to replace the terminal and used that wire when crimping the new one.

It is the red 9pin C57 connector seen between the brown and the black connector in the 2nd picture above.

And that black/wht wire goes to two places, to the C54 connector that is seen in your 4th picture above, and to the ICU.

Your bike has two separate units, Ignition Control Unit and Carburettor Control Unit, while the later models have only ECU to adjust the ignition timing and fuel/air ratio.
Does it matter if i clip and tie in at the c54 or does it Have to be the c57. I tried straight jumping from the battery to c54 but still no spark. The starter seems to be drawing too many volts/amps when i fire it up. I saw my voltage drop from 12.7 to 10, it flickered 9.86 for a second then went back up to 10v. That was on the voltmeter i tied in by the c54
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:09 pm

For a temporary connection, to supply direct battery voltage to the ignition coils and the ICU you can jump the wire to C54. Engine will not stop until you detach the connection.

However, for the modification, the relay should be connected to the black/white wire at the C57 connector by cutting the wire into two parts. Engine will stop with the kill switch or the ignition key.

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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:16 pm

Remove, sand and clean the two ground points over the dipstick, one on the frame, the other on the engine.
Voltage can be lost at the ground side in a circuit, as well.

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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:33 pm

Could you measure the resistance of the 3 ignition coils?
You can disconnect the C54 connector and measure them by touching one probe to the blk/wht wire and the other to the yellow/... wires one by one.

Or it is much better to do all the checks in the following picture.
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by DarrellFields » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:17 pm

Ok. I checked all the resistances on my coils and pulse generators, everything is in parameters, i havent gotten a chance to do the voltage drop test at the starter yet. The last 3 days have been crazy. I barely had the time today to put a few things back together before i catch the edge of hurricane/ tropical storm Maria tomorrow. One thought that came to me though is,, is it possible its just a bad solenoid thats not letting enough 12v+ through? If the voltage drop test is good at the starter im tempted to pull the starter and take it in and have it tested. It Does turn over fast and fine but my voltage drops to about 10.04 at the coil wire even when i jump a hot wire straight from the batt to the connector in the fairing over the fan. Ive tried jumping it straight from the batt to all 3 connectors with the same results at all 3. Also i have cleaned and tightened All ground connections. Thanks again for the help

Okay, since i originally made this post i did go out and do a drop test at the starter and im only getting 10v after the solenoid, i also realized the the bonehead that had the bike before me had jury rigged the positive cable at the alternator and it was rusty with a loose connection. UNFORTUNATELY when i tried to get the nut off the main stud broke even though i had doused it with penetrating oil and waited. I have since replaced the bad cable with something more appropriate for the need. I am Really starting to suspect the solenoid or the starter for the voltage drain. When i tried turning the bike over a minute ago with the c57 blk/wht wire hotwired i was dropping to 9.75 and stabilizing at 10.0 v. Below are pics of what i found and what i replaced it with. I still need to pull the remaining nut and reattach the pos cable to the alternator but i am letting the penetrating oil sit overnight before i try to break the nut loose.
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Replacement 12v+ and broken mount location
Replacement 12v+ and broken mount location


Original overkill cable and nasty connection
Original overkill cable and nasty connection


Small 8mm nut where i will bypass the original 12v+ mount. I plan on cleaning it profusely before hooking up the cable. On a side note This is the Only rusty connections i have found and it was hidden behind the rubber boot
Small 8mm nut where i will bypass the original 12v+ mount. I plan on cleaning it profusely before hooking up the cable. On a side note This is the Only rusty connections i have found and it was hidden behind the rubber boot

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Erdeniz Umman
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:45 am

Actually, it is not good to have a 2 volt voltage drop through the starter relay.

But, note that the starter and the ignition systems have a parallel connection on the bike. In a parallel connection the voltage will be the same at the first points where the first components attached in those circuits, and will drop according to the resistances of the components on the individual circuits, and finally will drop to zero at the last point where the last components attached to the ground.

So, if the battery is good (that means, fully charged and keeps the initial voltage during the cranking period) then ignition circuit will not be affected by anything else, especially when you attach a wire from the battery post to the black/white wire at the C54 or C57 connector.

I suspect a bad ground wire, although you said that you have resoldered the terminals, the connection may still be bad. Hard to tell from the picture, though.

You can check a connection by touching it. If it is bad, it will be hot, and sometimes very hot, be careful.

You can also build an extra ground wire (thick enough) and connect it temporarily from the battery negative post to the ground point over the dipstick, and try starting the bike again.

Don't forget that, the voltage can drop on the ground side of a circuit, as well.

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DarrellFields
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by DarrellFields » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:12 pm

Erdeniz Umman wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:45 am
Actually, it is not good to have a 2 volt voltage drop through the starter relay.

But, note that the starter and the ignition systems have a parallel connection on the bike. In a parallel connection the voltage will be the same at the first points where the first components attached in those circuits, and will drop according to the resistances of the components on the individual circuits, and finally will drop to zero at the last point where the last components attached to the ground.

So, if the battery is good (that means, fully charged and keeps the initial voltage during the cranking period) then ignition circuit will not be affected by anything else, especially when you attach a wire from the battery post to the black/white wire at the C54 or C57 connector.

I suspect a bad ground wire, although you said that you have resoldered the terminals, the connection may still be bad. Hard to tell from the picture, though.

You can check a connection by touching it. If it is bad, it will be hot, and sometimes very hot, be careful.

You can also build an extra ground wire (thick enough) and connect it temporarily from the battery negative post to the ground point over the dipstick, and try starting the bike again.

Don't forget that, the voltage can drop on the ground side of a circuit, as well.
Ok. Ty. I Did make a secondary ground and attached it to the engine where it grounds first. Also i took the battery and had it tested and it came out good. Right now i have all of the plugs by the c57 unplugged as i was trying to get the fan out to make more room to work on adding in the relay and reattach one of the hoses to the bottom of my airbox. I made the mistake of taking it off looking for hidden connectors and also to see if i could see the coils. It has been very difficult to get the pcv hoses reattached. I am really starting to get frustrated with the bike.
You mentioned that a 2v drop on the outflow side of the solenoid was bad. All of the connections are spotless from the batt to the starter on the + leg, Is it possible that the solenoid has been the problem the entire time? It works fine but i also understand that if one leg of a dc circuit is restricted that ot will try to balance the load by pulling from the other leg. Eg; pos is restricted it will try to pull harder through the neg. Thats what i was taught about car audio anyway.
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Erdeniz Umman
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:47 pm

As I have explained, it should not affect the ignition voltage. In a parallel circuit, in such a situation only the current flow on that leg will change but not on the other leg.

But, the total resistance and the total current flow will change and this will cause the battery to discharge faster.

One more thing to check is the timing belts, I couldn't remember if you had mentioned before.

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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by ct1500 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:46 pm

The device with the MT2 stamped on it is the ECM.
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:53 pm

ct1500 wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:46 pm
The device with the MT2 stamped on it is the ECM.
Actually it is not for 88 and 89 models, because they have two different units called ignition control unit and carburettor control unit.

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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by ct1500 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:08 pm

Erdeniz Umman wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:53 pm
ct1500 wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:46 pm
The device with the MT2 stamped on it is the ECM.
Actually it is not for 88 and 89 models, because they have two different units called ignition control unit and carburettor control unit.
That is where the OP will be doing his testing for a no spark condition which in this whole thread has not been pointed out to him as his previous post indicated he thought it was in the fairing pocket which is where the CCU is.

No need to educate me :D and I know perfectly well what Honda called that device in early production but I will stick to my old school ways and for not confusing the OP will just call it the ECM which also would not be correct to you but is the more common terminology in my neck of the woods.
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DarrellFields
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by DarrellFields » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:44 pm

Erdeniz Umman wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:47 pm
As I have explained, it should not affect the ignition voltage. In a parallel circuit, in such a situation only the current flow on that leg will change but not on the other leg.

But, the total resistance and the total current flow will change and this will cause the battery to discharge faster.

One more thing to check is the timing belts, I couldn't remember if you had mentioned before.
I never checked the timing belts because it only has 66k miles and the spark issue has been an intermittent thing. It'll run sometimes and run like a top, then itll drizzle or rain and i completely lose spark. Thats why i have been focusing on an electrical direction. The only truly corroded connection i found was the pos terminal on the alternator.
I am glad it was pointed out to me i was looking in the wrong place for the ecu. Thats helpful info. I will pull it tomorrow and check out the circuit board and see if anything is obviously wrong like a cold solder joint or burnt resistor. You guys are awesome and i am greatful for all the help
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:58 am

ct1500 wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:08 pm

That is where the OP will be doing his testing for a no spark condition which in this whole thread has not been pointed out to him as his previous post indicated he thought it was in the fairing pocket which is where the CCU is.

No need to educate me :D and I know perfectly well what Honda called that device in early production but I will stick to my old school ways and for not confusing the OP will just call it the ECM which also would not be correct to you but is the more common terminology in my neck of the woods.
Ok, it was not to educate you, just couldn't understand what you wanted to say.

Actually, the connectors and test procedure were given in a previous post.

And he had said "I checked all the resistances on my coils and pulse generators, everything is in parameters".

So I thought that he has done the checks according to this.

Here is the test procedure once more.
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by DarrellFields » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:00 pm

Okay Erdeniz, i wired the relay in as instructed as well as ran a secondary ground to the same bolt the ecu is grounded at, the voltage on the coil wire isnt dropping below 11v anymore but i still dont have any spark. The ecu looked fine. No burnt smells, no obvious damage anywhere. I looked the ecu over with a high powered magnafying glass. All of my fuses and relays are good. The ohms check out on the coils and pulse generators. I have cleaned every ground wire and bolting location. The switches are all good, I'm at a loss as to where to go from here.
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:21 pm

You may want to check the timing belts and the PGs for their condition and alignment.

A dirty PG may not be sending the pulses correctly.

It would be a good idea to replace the timing belts while you are, since they are old.

I am concentrating on the ignition system since you say there is no spark. Are you sure there is no spark? How do you check it?

Are the spark plugs in the correct cylinders?

Is the kill switch at the RUN position?

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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by DarrellFields » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:00 am

Erdeniz Umman wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:21 pm
You may want to check the timing belts and the PGs for their condition and alignment.

A dirty PG may not be sending the pulses correctly.

It would be a good idea to replace the timing belts while you are, since they are old.

I am concentrating on the ignition system since you say there is no spark. Are you sure there is no spark? How do you check it?

Are the spark plugs in the correct cylinders?

Is the kill switch at the RUN position?
Kill switch in run, brand new E3 plugs, store bought mechanic grade adjustable spark checker, and no money for new belts atm. Lost my job about 2 weeks ago. I will pull the covers and check condition of the pg's but the bike has lost spark 3x and all 3x it was rainy/drizzle weather. First 2x all i had was a bike cover. Now i have a 10x10 canopy i park under. Also it hasnt rained in several days now but its been high humidity.
Thx again. I know my wing is a brain strainer.
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Re: 89 Gl1500 no spark

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:26 am

Don't be pessimistic about the bike, you would do most of these maintenance works in anyways.

For the humidity, I remember two issues.

1.There may be bad spark plug wires or caps.
I have read that someone tried WD40 over the spark plug wires, to fix a no spark problem in a rainy weather.

2.Also there may be a bad air filter or air filter housing that can not filter the moisture in the air. I don't know the design limits of the bike but, you need a dry air to get a spark.
I have read that someone found a gap between the air filter cover and the housing, after fixing the gap using some duck tape he could start the bike.

I am sorry about your job, I hope you get a better one.



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