Finally... A summation of what I have learned


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754
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1978 CB750 Supersport

Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by 754 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:32 am



As the title says I finally have a properly running Goldwing (Merry Christmas to me I guess :lol: ). Anyway, I wanted to put this thread together to maybe help others as I have been struggling with this since I purchased this bike back in September. Quick backstory of the bike, it was a Craigslist find, and I got it for cheap knowing the fact that the PO really did not like riding it and parked it six years ago in his nice dry heated garage. He took the batter out and never touched it again until the day I went to get it. I bled the brakes and clutch, removed and cleaned the carbs and replaced the idle jets (because the old ones crumbled when I put a screwdriver to them), checked the spark plugs (looked like new considering they were put in when he parked it), got the old gas out put new in with some Seafoam, put in a new battery and hit the start button and it came to life just like old Honda's do. Then it started... first was the surging problem. Cue looking for the vacuum leaks... did a lot of reading and asking here about the problem, many people provided great information. The carbs came off again double checked the slide diaphragms (they were good) then on to the lines, found a hole in the notorious 90 degree line under the rubber mat at the intake manifold, and also found 2 on the left side of the engine that didn't look so good so they got changed. No difference in the engine. Did more looking and reading... maybe the ignition coils {had seen a youtube video of a guy with a surge (due to different circumstances) checked the primary windings which checked good, but did the coils anyway no change. Started to get mad at this point (my previous career was a heavy truck mechanic and I have worked on far more complex things). Changed the timing belts hoping maybe it was a timing issue, no such luck there either. Also did the coolant sensor no change in the engine. It seemed to develop a horrible flat spot in the acceleration curve, it had no low end power and just would not accelerate like it should, until about 4000RPM then it would take off like it should. I decided to take it to Barber Vintage Fest anyway to see how it did on the road (that turned out to be a miserable ride, the poor bike had not low end torque or power), but did get a factory service manual at the swap meet there. That helped so much. Began the process of working through the troubleshooting tree's in the manual. Did a lot of reading checked the fuel pump output spot on per the book. Found some damaged wires in the fairing going to one of the shot solenoids, fixed them with no engine change. At this point I took some time away from the bike to contemplate everything up to this point and decide if it was time to toss in the towel. At that time I had been doing some reading on the SOHC4 forums and read and commented on a few threads helping people with carb troubles there (I am well versed in SOHC4's) and things began to become clear in my head. I went back to the Goldwing one day and started it and just sat there with it. Worked the throttle a few times noting a pretty pathetic squirt from the accelerator pump (I noticed this before, but didn't give it much thought), and it hit then what other people had told me; they all thought it was running lean and the it was running seemed to back that up. Even though the fuel pump out put test seemed to show it was in good working order I decided to order a new Carter pump and strainer. That was a nice simple installation and the bike fired right back up, after letting warm up I gave the throttle a twist and it revved perfectly! No more flat spot, I hopped on put it in gear and when I let the clutch out the power and torque didn't drop off like it did before. A quick test ride confirmed all the low end power and torque I could ask for, plus plenty of roll on power to pass people, nothing like it was before. The darn fuel pump was the culprit! I couldn't be happier... now! :D

I say all of that to say this don't do things the way I did. I jumped all over the place rather than work methodically like I have been taught to do. Start simple does it have air, fuel, spark, compression in the right quantities? Then move on to the more complex systems. Also get whatever manuals you can to provide guidance, if it wasn't for my shop manual I'd still be scratching my head.

I have found these bikes can be a bit tricky to diagnosis, but stick with it folks they're not that bad to work on.

Now all I need to do is balance the carbs to get that nice steady idle I'm looking for, then time to pile on some more miles!

Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way, all of your insights were very helpful.

Travis


1992 Goldwing Gl1500

1978 CB750 Supersport

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Stew
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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by Stew » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:09 pm

Good reminders, I can imagine your sense of joy and relief when you finally got it figured out!
Winging it every chance I get

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Mh434
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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by Mh434 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:56 pm

Yeah...if it was me, I'd have been doing the fist-pumping happy dance all over the garage for awhile. Just, you know, to confirm to the neighbors that I'm a certifiable whacko... :lol: :roll:

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by AZgl1800 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:22 pm

too many folks forget reason and logic.

and just start changing parts with no relevance to what the actual symptoms actually are.

Fuel?
Spark?
Air?

it ought to run, if it don't, one of those is missing something.
John
'02 Gl1800 Hot Rod Yellow,
daughter named her Big Bird :lol:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com

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754
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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by 754 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:36 pm

Well, each time I tried something new it always followed odd results from the tests I tried. I was just a little uninformed without the shop manual. Anyway put it back together today, hoping to get some riding in soon.
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1992 Goldwing Gl1500

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by WingAdmin » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:43 pm

AZgl1800 wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:22 pm
too many folks forget reason and logic.

and just start changing parts with no relevance to what the actual symptoms actually are.

Fuel?
Spark?
Air?

it ought to run, if it don't, one of those is missing something.
Too often this is how dealerships work as well. My car is in at the dealership right now for what I know is an electrical fault in the reverse camera. Reading on forums dedicated to my car, every single person who has had issues with their reverse camera with the identical set of unique symptoms as mine, has had the problem fixed by replacing the camera itself. I told the dealer this when I dropped the car off. When I read the codes out of my car before I took it in, it reported a code that says, literally, "electrical fault in back-up camera." The dealer saw the same code.

So far my dealer has:

- Reprogrammed the APIM module and the module controlling the screen
- Replaced the APIM module
- Replaced the harness between the APIM module and the screen controller

Now that they have spend thousands in parts and labor replacing parts that AREN'T the problem, they have ordered me a new camera, which they will "try" replacing next week. :roll:

My only guess is that they are intentionally soaking Ford for all this unnecessary labor, knowing full well it's covered under warranty.

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by wilmo » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:52 pm

Actually with what you fixed besides the pump, you would've needed to do anyway. Holes in vacuum tubes are not good and needed to be repaired. Belts needed to be replaced anyway, good you did that. I wouldn't consider that wasted effort, if you did the fuel pump first, the vacuum hoses would've gotcha anyway. You actually had multiple issues. Good work.

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754
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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by 754 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:17 pm

Honestly what makes me the most upset about all of this was the fact that the fuel pump gave me a false, but correct reading with the output test. The pump put out more than enough flow, just not required pressure. So after I ran that test I tried to find another problem and wasted about 2 weeks or more looking for a problem that didn't exist. I pride my self on getting the job done quickly are correctly, so this bothers me a bit, but at least I did finally find the root issue. I guess I could say live and learn.

Travis
1992 Goldwing Gl1500

1978 CB750 Supersport

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by WingAdmin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:29 pm

754 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:17 pm
Honestly what makes me the most upset about all of this was the fact that the fuel pump gave me a false, but correct reading with the output test. The pump put out more than enough flow, just not required pressure. So after I ran that test I tried to find another problem and wasted about 2 weeks or more looking for a problem that didn't exist. I pride my self on getting the job done quickly are correctly, so this bothers me a bit, but at least I did finally find the root issue. I guess I could say live and learn.

Travis
It's a valid point. I've done that by-the-book fuel pump volume test before, but if the pump is weak and can't supply the volume when there is pressure, then the test is invalid. Perhaps fitting the fuel filter to it and allowing it to pump through the filter (thereby having to build up a little bit of pressure, to get through the filter media) might be a better test. Or perhaps connect a hose to the output and elevate it a few feet, so that the pump has to pump the fuel upwards, thereby raising the pressure.

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by 754 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:39 am

WingAdmin wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:29 pm
754 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:17 pm
Honestly what makes me the most upset about all of this was the fact that the fuel pump gave me a false, but correct reading with the output test. The pump put out more than enough flow, just not required pressure. So after I ran that test I tried to find another problem and wasted about 2 weeks or more looking for a problem that didn't exist. I pride my self on getting the job done quickly are correctly, so this bothers me a bit, but at least I did finally find the root issue. I guess I could say live and learn.

Travis
It's a valid point. I've done that by-the-book fuel pump volume test before, but if the pump is weak and can't supply the volume when there is pressure, then the test is invalid. Perhaps fitting the fuel filter to it and allowing it to pump through the filter (thereby having to build up a little bit of pressure, to get through the filter media) might be a better test. Or perhaps connect a hose to the output and elevate it a few feet, so that the pump has to pump the fuel upwards, thereby raising the pressure.
I thought about that exact same thing after I replaced the pump, and realized that was the problem.
1992 Goldwing Gl1500

1978 CB750 Supersport

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by AZgl1800 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:29 pm

The manual states that on the fuel pump test, that you must give it a head pressure of 3 ft minimum on the flow test... and that it must flow the minimum volume with the head pressure against the output port.
John
'02 Gl1800 Hot Rod Yellow,
daughter named her Big Bird :lol:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by 754 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:49 pm

Hmmmm.... I'll have to look at the manual when I get home from work tomorrow. I completely missed that part about the 3ft elevation needed for the test. That would yield a much more accurate result.
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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by AZgl1800 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:05 pm

st1100 or st1300 fuel pums can be used
from this link http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-g ... ost1177896


Lots of information from this link
http://www.berrysweb.com/1500_fuel_pump.htm
it mentions getting a fuel pump for a Honda Accord, those are super cheap at RockAuto

this is a good pump, but IMO it is over priced
https://www.holley.com/products/nitrous ... s/15760NOS


this thread goes on and on, with a lot of info
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/10- ... y-fix.html



Video on checking the fuel pump






This video is bit humours, he calls the Vacuum Petcock the "fuel pump", but later gets into the fuel pump itself. oh well, no such thing as "too much info", right?

Video on the GL1500 fuel pump


John
'02 Gl1800 Hot Rod Yellow,
daughter named her Big Bird :lol:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by brian.peters » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:01 pm

Power problems can be very hard to diagnose. It's not a simple as fuel, air, spark unless it's not running at all. Your issues were tough and your testing led you down the wrong path but it was not wasted effort. Timing belts need changed, you are done. You fixed a bunch of other little things that were wrong that would bite you in the ass down the road.

Fuel pumps are tricky thing. You need to look at pressure while riding, not sure how one would accomplish that:) and they typically just fail so there is little doubt what the issue is. I think everything you did is going to pay dividends in the future.

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by 754 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:26 pm

I went with the carter pump and screen and it was a nice easy install that seems to work well.
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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by bellboy40 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:52 am

AZgl1800 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:29 pm
The manual states that on the fuel pump test, that you must give it a head pressure of 3 ft minimum on the flow test... and that it must flow the minimum volume with the head pressure against the output port.
John, which manual did you find that in? The one I have, a digital version from this site, has no mention of a 3 ft minimum head pressure when doing the fuel pump output test. That would certainly be a better and more accurate test for a good fuel flow.

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by themainviking » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:15 am

WingAdmin wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:43 pm

My only guess is that they are intentionally soaking Ford for all this unnecessary labor, knowing full well it's covered under warranty.
That would be my bet.
It ain't about the destination - it's all about the journey

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by themainviking » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:16 am

754 wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:36 pm
Well, each time I tried something new it always followed odd results from the tests I tried. I was just a little uninformed without the shop manual. Anyway put it back together today, hoping to get some riding in soon.
Gotta say one thing. That is a beautiful empty, clean, place you have to work on things.
It ain't about the destination - it's all about the journey

ImageImage

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by 754 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:57 am

A big garage was one of the few non-negotiables I had when I bought our house this year. And BTW it only looks clean in that one spot, the mess is just off camera, I still haven't organized things from the move in April. :lol: Hopefully I get to it soon.
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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by 754 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:04 am

bellboy40 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:52 am
AZgl1800 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:29 pm
The manual states that on the fuel pump test, that you must give it a head pressure of 3 ft minimum on the flow test... and that it must flow the minimum volume with the head pressure against the output port.
John, which manual did you find that in? The one I have, a digital version from this site, has no mention of a 3 ft minimum head pressure when doing the fuel pump output test. That would certainly be a better and more accurate test for a good fuel flow.
I just looked at my paper shop manual and it has nothing about needing to elevation for the output test. Still it would have been better to have disconnected the fuel line at the carbs rather that the filter as the test says.
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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by AZgl1800 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm

bellboy40 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:52 am
AZgl1800 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:29 pm
The manual states that on the fuel pump test, that you must give it a head pressure of 3 ft minimum on the flow test... and that it must flow the minimum volume with the head pressure against the output port.
John, which manual did you find that in? The one I have, a digital version from this site, has no mention of a 3 ft minimum head pressure when doing the fuel pump output test. That would certainly be a better and more accurate test for a good fuel flow.
I don't recall the where, and I don't have the bookmark....
but I do remember quite well, having to do that when my fuel pump was going bad.... I could ride it for a while, and then it just quit giving enough flow to keep the engine going.

Ran that elevated flow test, and got maybe 25% of rated capacity.

I bought a Carter pump at NAPA to fix mine.
John
'02 Gl1800 Hot Rod Yellow,
daughter named her Big Bird :lol:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by WingAdmin » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:24 am

AZgl1800 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm
bellboy40 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:52 am
AZgl1800 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:29 pm
The manual states that on the fuel pump test, that you must give it a head pressure of 3 ft minimum on the flow test... and that it must flow the minimum volume with the head pressure against the output port.
John, which manual did you find that in? The one I have, a digital version from this site, has no mention of a 3 ft minimum head pressure when doing the fuel pump output test. That would certainly be a better and more accurate test for a good fuel flow.
I don't recall the where, and I don't have the bookmark....
but I do remember quite well, having to do that when my fuel pump was going bad.... I could ride it for a while, and then it just quit giving enough flow to keep the engine going.

Ran that elevated flow test, and got maybe 25% of rated capacity.

I bought a Carter pump at NAPA to fix mine.
This was news to me as well, so I went bo look at my 2000 service manual, and there is no mention of it. In fact, the diagram itself shows them holding the graduated beaker below the output level:

Fuel Pump Test
Fuel Pump Test

I checked other models just to be sure. The GL1000 and GL1100 service manuals describe both a flow volume test as well as a pressure test. The GL1200 service manual describes only a flow volume test, same as the GL1500's service manual. The GL1800 service manual, utterly useless as usual, doesn't describe any diagnostics at all: it basically says "if it doesn't work correctly, replace it."

None of them however describe a volume test with elevated head pressure.

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by dingdong » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:45 am

I found a reference to this but not from the manual. Just someone's method of testing. May be where John's rememberer picked this up. post #7.

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-g ... oblem.html
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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by bellboy40 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:15 am

I knew I had seen that method posted somewhere before but couldn't remember where it was. I was pretty sure it wasn't in the service manual though. It does seem that the Honda service manual would make some mention of a pressure test or give some specs on the fuel pump.

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Re: Finally... A summation of what I have learned

Post by 754 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:48 am

Yeah, one would think they would have a test for both pressure and volume. It would have saved me a few weeks of head scratching. I did eventually figure out what was going on, but it still bothers me that it took so long. I'm normally not one to struggle with something so this got personal, and yes upon completing repairs I did give that bad fuel pump and nice one finger salute. Now all I need it a set of sync gauges, not just for the wing but also the old 750 which now that the wing is running well, will finally be coming apart for a much needed restomod treatment.


1992 Goldwing Gl1500

1978 CB750 Supersport

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