2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start


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Stew
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2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:40 pm



I think I need some ideas from the experts here, bike has an intermittent no-start condition. It was doing it again this morning for a couple of tries but then started working again, this is going to be fun to figure out :(

This is what I noticed this morning before it started working again... Bike was on the center stand, side stand up and in neutral. Hit the starter button and I heard something clicking that sounded like it was coming from underneath the seat, the headlight would also go out like I believe it's supposed to. When turning the ignition on all the dash lights appear to be coming on like they should. I didn't hear any clicking down by the battery or foot brake so I don't think either of those relays were clicking, just whatever that was under the seat.

Clutch in or out didn't matter, I put the side stand down and the light for that came on, I put it back up and the light went out and then the starter started cranking again. Is it possible for the side stand switch to be failing in a way that would allow the light to still operate but just not crank the starter? Also when this happened yesterday reverse wasn't working either.

For now this is going to be tricky to diagnose since it's intermittent but I'm hoping some of these symptoms will sound familiar to someone. Thanks guys and gals!


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19,119 miles when I got it from dad Oct 15, 2017 --- 21,792 miles and counting as of May 25, 2018!

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tigi
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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by tigi » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:57 pm

Sounds like either the starter or solenoid going south !

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MikeB
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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by MikeB » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:09 pm

Hi Stew. Personally, I think it is the reverse lever switch that is causing the problem.

This is from the Electrical Troubleshooting Manual for the 2000 GL1500:
Starter and reverse systems do not operate but the neutral indicator operates.
• Weak battery or poor terminal connections.
• Blown RVS Start fuse .
• Open circuit at reverse lever switch or faulty starter/reverse motor; do test A2.

Because I do not know if you have a service manual and I suppose you will ask what Test A2 is, here you go:
TEST A2: Power and Ground Isolation
1. Disconnect C57 (starter/reverse switch) and with ignition switch ON, check for battery voltage at BLK/LT GRN circuit.
If yes, go to test A3.
If no, go to test A4.

TEST A3: Power and Ground Starter Relay A Isolation
1. Reconnect C57 and disconnect C41 (starter relay A). With ignition switch ON, check for voltage at YEL/RED circuit with starter/reverse switch depressed.
If yes, go to step 2.
If no, service YEL/RED circuit for an open. If OK, replace starter/reverse switch.
2. Check for battery voltage at starter relay A BLK circuit from battery.
If yes, go to step 3.
If no, repair BLK circuit.
3. With ignition switch ON, gearshift in NEUTRAL, and reverse lever switch in the FORWARD position, check for voltage between BLK (battery feed) circuit and C41 BRN/RED using a test light.
If yes, go to step 4.
If no, service BRN/RED circuit for an open between starter relay A and S302.
4. Check for battery voltage across BLK circuits at starter relay A.
If yes, go to step 5.
If no, service BLK circuit between starter relay A and 8227 for an open.
5. Reconnect C41 and disconnect BLK circuits at starter/reverse motor terminal. Connect test light at starter/reverse motor terminal. With ignition switch ON, reverse lever switch FORWARD and gearshift in NEUTRAL, press and hold starter/reverse switch. Test lamp should light.
If yes, replace starter/reverse motor.
If no, replace starter relay A.

TEST A4: Power and Ground IGN/Cruise Relay Isolation
1. Disconnect the IGN/cruise relay. With the ignition switch ON, check for battery voltage at both WHT circuits.
If yes, go to step 2.
If no, service WHT circuit for an open.
2. Check for battery voltage between WHT and RED/WHT circuits.
If yes, go to step 3.
If no, go to test A5.
3. Connect a fused jumper (15A) between WHT and BLK/LT GRN circuit at IGN/cruise relay and check for battery voltage at BLK/LT GRN circuit at C57.
If yes, replace IGN/cruise relay.
If no, service BLK/LT GRN circuit.
MikeB
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Stew
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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:20 pm

Tigi, of those two possibilities I'd suspect the relay first since there was no audible clicking from them.

MikeB, thank you! I can definitely follow these steps and see what the heck is going on. This'll get me started, I'll report back and let you know what I find.

As I'm thinking about the clicking under the seat, that could've been the relay I added to switch the in-dash voltmeter on/off. I connected it to the accessory terminals on the fuse panel.

Thank you guys so much!
Winging it every chance I get 8-)

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Redhot » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:04 am

The first simple thing to do is undo battery terminals. Clean them up and make sure they are re-attached tightly. A clicking sound could be the starter solenoid not getting enough power from battery to starter, causing the relay to switch on and off. Same as a weak battery. If you keep trying to start this way then you will burn out starter solenoid. This might not be the problem, but easy to eliminate before getting too deep.

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Stew
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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:23 pm

I think MikeB might be on the right track with the reverse lever switch.

It didn't turn over again yesterday morning so I pulled out the reverse lever and pushed it back in then it fired right up and was fine the rest of the day. I think I'll still need to wait until it stops cranking permanently though before being able to accurately troubleshoot it.
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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by MikeB » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:52 pm

Stew wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:23 pm
I think MikeB might be on the right track with the reverse lever switch.

It didn't turn over again yesterday morning so I pulled out the reverse lever and pushed it back in then it fired right up and was fine the rest of the day. I think I'll still need to wait until it stops cranking permanently though before being able to accurately troubleshoot it.
That is pretty much a dead giveaway, Stew. The switch contacts themselves are more than likely just fine. But the switch plunger that actuates the contacts in the switch is probably sticking and in need of cleaning.


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Techdude2000
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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Techdude2000 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:36 pm

I thought if the reverse lever switch was not functioning properly, the neutral light would not come on. Doesn’t the neutral light get its power from the lever switch when it’s in the neutral position(not reverse)?

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by MikeB » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:57 pm

Yes you are correct about the Neutral light. One would think that the light should not be operating.
But from my experience when it comes to troubleshooting electrical malfunctions, all bets are off as to how the affected systems are going to react in other than normal conditions.

In the Electrical Troubleshooting Honda Manual, the first part of the troubleshooting leads one to the reverse lever switch.

Starter and reverse systems do not operate but the neutral indicator operates.
• Weak battery or poor terminal connections.
• Blown RVS Start fuse .
Open circuit at reverse lever switch or faulty starter/reverse motor; do test A2.
MikeB
Tacoma, WA, USA

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Techdude2000 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:41 am

MikeB wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:57 pm
Yes you are correct about the Neutral light. One would think that the light should not be operating.
But from my experience when it comes to troubleshooting electrical malfunctions, all bets are off as to how the affected systems are going to react in other than normal conditions.

In the Electrical Troubleshooting Honda Manual, the first part of the troubleshooting leads one to the reverse lever switch.

Starter and reverse systems do not operate but the neutral indicator operates.
• Weak battery or poor terminal connections.
• Blown RVS Start fuse .
Open circuit at reverse lever switch or faulty starter/reverse motor; do test A2.
Thanks for the reply. I’m very familiar with the 1800’s system, but still learning about the 1200 & 1500 systems. One thing that I learned awhile back with the 1800’s ETM, is the lack of other steps in the troubleshooting that are necessary to narrow down some failures. This 1500 circuit is very similar to the 1800’s as far as the system needing power and a ground on the reverse relay to energize it so that it will provide the ground path for the A starter relay’s coil for starting. The 1800 relies on the reverse regulator assembly to “steer” the power and ground to this relay for use. The power is also used for the neutral light and this is the case for the 1500’s system, except the 1500 uses the lever switch for the power switchover where the 1800 uses the reverse shift switch on the handlebar for the switchover. Hopefully a good cleaning or replacement of this 1500’s switch will get it going. I’m currently trying to help an 1800 owner troubleshoot a similar symptom on another bulletin board. The troubleshooting steps in the manual mention the ground paths very little in its steps, but this is where his issue is rooted. Goodluck on this one, I’ll stay tuned...

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by WingAdmin » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:46 am

MikeB wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:52 pm
Stew wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:23 pm
I think MikeB might be on the right track with the reverse lever switch.

It didn't turn over again yesterday morning so I pulled out the reverse lever and pushed it back in then it fired right up and was fine the rest of the day. I think I'll still need to wait until it stops cranking permanently though before being able to accurately troubleshoot it.
That is pretty much a dead giveaway, Stew. The switch contacts themselves are more than likely just fine. But the switch plunger that actuates the contacts in the switch is probably sticking and in need of cleaning.
reverse switch.jpg
The contacts in the switch are inaccessible, it is a sealed unit. The symptoms you state are a dead giveaway. It is not going to get better - I can tell you from personal experience that at some point "shifting to reverse and then back out" will only work for so long - eventually the bike will refuse to start at all, and you'll be stuck.

This is such a common fault that Cyclemax carries the replacement switches in stock. It's a cheap and easy fix for $14:

http://cyclemax.com/inc/sdetail/gl1500_ ... 129/188751




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Stew
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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:23 pm

That's reassuring to have another confirmation that this is likely the problem, thanks WingAdmin. I need to place a Cyclemax order here before too long, I need this switch, the cruise and sub filters and a couple other maintenance items still on my list.

The problem is when it's too cold to ride it's too cold to be in my garage working on it, and when it's warm enough to work on it I want to ride!
Winging it every chance I get 8-)

19,119 miles when I got it from dad Oct 15, 2017 --- 21,792 miles and counting as of May 25, 2018!

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:13 am

My motorcycle did the no-start thing again today. But after a few tries it starts so I still can't do any troubleshooting. Searching through the forums I ran across the following thread which sounds exactly like what mine is doing:
viewtopic.php?t=32677

Hit the start button and neither relay clicks, the starter button is working because I hear something clicking somewhere under the seat when I push it, the neutral and sidestand lights work, moving the reverse lever up and down several times didn't help. But after a few tries it does start up fine again :x

In the thread referenced above his problem was a missing diode in the diode pack behind the right saddlebag, mine is obviously not missing because it does start after a few tries BUT can these diodes work intermittently when they're starting to fail causing an intermittent problem like I'm having?

I haven't looked at my diode pack yet but it looks like there's a few in there, is only one used for starting and are they interchangeable so I can swap them around in an attempt to troubleshoot?

Thanks for the continued help on this.
Winging it every chance I get 8-)

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:37 am

You should not be so sure about the starter button.
There are two different contacts inside, one is for the headlights, and the other is for the starter.

So, the clicking sound probably comes from the headlight relay, to turn the headlights off while cranking.

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:03 am

Thanks for the suggestions Erdeniz, I will open up the start button and have a look. This is so frustrating, I wish it would just fail permanently so I could figure it out and be done with it!
Winging it every chance I get 8-)

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:44 pm

Ok, I'm not a fan of throwing parts at something but it doesn't stop working long enough to t-shoot so here I go. I'll be installing a new reverse lever switch and RH handlebar switch assembly.



I already replaced the LH handlebar switch assembly a couple months ago so why not the RH, and in for a penny and all that good stuff ;). If it does it again I'll update this thread but hopefully this is it.
Winging it every chance I get 8-)

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:44 pm

Minor update: Went to take the Goldwing out this morning, it was doing the no-start thing. This time, and I'm not sure why I didn't think to try this before, I held the start button down as I pushed down on the reverse lever and it started when I applied pressure. When I got home I did a little test after I shut it off... I rotated the reverse lever up enough to trigger it's switch but not move the actual cables and tried to start it. It did the exact same thing as when it doesn't start for me, I hear the clicking under the seat but no starter motor. I pushed back down on the reverse lever as I held the start button and when I pushed down the reverse lever far enough it started.

So at this point I'm convinced it's the reverse switch just as some of you suspected all along. This weekend I'm going to be putting on the new reverse switch I got as well as some other parts and hopefully finally put this to rest. I appreciate the help you guys have given me with this!
Winging it every chance I get 8-)

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by SG_Jay » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:36 pm

I think the dead giveaway to the reverse switch is not having the green neutral light lit on the dash. If the bike is in neutral, and it isn't lit up, you'll get nothing from the start button. It caused me a bit of panic 100 miles from home one time. I cycled the reverse lever a few times and bam, the neutral light lit and it started right up.

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:44 pm

SG_Jay wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:36 pm
I think the dead giveaway to the reverse switch is not having the green neutral light lit on the dash. If the bike is in neutral, and it isn't lit up, you'll get nothing from the start button. It caused me a bit of panic 100 miles from home one time. I cycled the reverse lever a few times and bam, the neutral light lit and it started right up.
Ah but that's where the confusion was, the neutral light WAS illuminated when it wouldn't start. So here's what's going on as I understand it reading the shop manuals I have and just going down and tested this out on my bike: There are TWO reverse switches, one down on the left side which is triggered by the reverse handle you pull up. This one does not turn off the neutral light but does prevent the starter from actuating when it is switched but the second switch hasn't yet been switched.

As you pull up further on the reverse lever and the cables move, the second reverse switch over on the right side by the oil dipstick is triggered which turns off the neutral light and illuminates the "R" light on the dash, and once all that happens the starter runs as your reverse gear.

If the switch on the left by the reverse lever is triggered but the other one on the right isn't, the neutral light will still be on but it won't start. Whew, I am so glad I understand how that works now.
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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:24 pm

Stew wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:44 pm
SG_Jay wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:36 pm
I think the dead giveaway to the reverse switch is not having the green neutral light lit on the dash. If the bike is in neutral, and it isn't lit up, you'll get nothing from the start button. It caused me a bit of panic 100 miles from home one time. I cycled the reverse lever a few times and bam, the neutral light lit and it started right up.
Ah but that's where the confusion was, the neutral light WAS illuminated when it wouldn't start. So here's what's going on as I understand it reading the shop manuals I have and just going down and tested this out on my bike: There are TWO reverse switches, one down on the left side which is triggered by the reverse handle you pull up. This one does not turn off the neutral light but does prevent the starter from actuating when it is switched but the second switch hasn't yet been switched.

As you pull up further on the reverse lever and the cables move, the second reverse switch over on the right side by the oil dipstick is triggered which turns off the neutral light and illuminates the "R" light on the dash, and once all that happens the starter runs as your reverse gear.

If the switch on the left by the reverse lever is triggered but the other one on the right isn't, the neutral light will still be on but it won't start. Whew, I am so glad I understand how that works now.
A little correction on your interpretation.
On 2000 GL1500SE, the N light gets positive voltage from the reverse lever switch when it is down, and the negative voltage from the gear position switch.

The R light is operated by the reverse control unit which checks some inputs and if everything is ok it illuminates the R light.

The start system has a safety circuit which uses some relays and switches.

So, the start and reverse system is a little bit complicated to understand and troubleshoot, it would be better to follow the wiring diagrams to understand the circuits.

You could download the color diagrams which I have prepared.
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-g ... agram.html

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:07 pm

Thank you for the correction Erdeniz :). I just went to confirm again what the lever and switches were doing and now it doing something different than a few minutes ago, this is going to drive me crazy.

I turned on the ignition, had it in neutral, side stand up. The neutral light stays on until the lever is pulled up far enough to trigger the reverse control unit and then goes out but now the R is not illuminating. The starter is turning over but now reverse isn't engaging. Does that still sounds like a flaky reverse lever switch?

I REALLY appreciate everyones help! Oh and it looks like I'll need to sign up to that other forum to grab the color diagrams.

Edit: Maybe I should stop stressing over this until I get the new parts on it this weekend, at least then I will know for sure what parts are good.
Winging it every chance I get 8-)

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Techdude2000 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:11 pm

I would check the connections on the reverse diode pack. If the signal from the lever switch is not getting through it or is intermittently getting through, you could get weird symptoms like this.

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by bellboy40 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:13 pm

Was the engine running when you moved the lever up to reverse? The reverse light should not come on until several tests by the reverse control circuit have been made and pass. One of them is that the engine is running.

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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by Stew » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:34 pm

Techdude2000 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:11 pm
I would check the connections on the reverse diode pack. If the signal from the lever switch is not getting through it or is intermittently getting through, you could get weird symptoms like this.
Those are the ones behind the right saddlebag... I will do that Saturday for sure when I'm installing parts. I ordered a replacement diode from partzilla in case I need one trying to figure this out but will check them all. It looked like there were a few different part numbers, I the new one I ordered looked like the most common one.
bellboy40 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:13 pm
Was the engine running when you moved the lever up to reverse? The reverse light should not come on until several tests by the reverse control circuit have been made and pass. One of them is that the engine is running.
Haha, no it wasn't. I just looked in the owner manual and in the section on how to use reverse it says to have the engine running first :oops: That was the first time I think I've tried it with the engine off. However, earlier today when I was moving the reverse lever around trying to make sense of everything the R light was coming on with the engine off although I didn't press the button to see if it actually would've reversed. Then when I went about and hour later to confirm what it was doing the reverse light wasn't coming on, and it wasn't reversing. Appropriately enough it sounds like.

I think I'll also remove the right side reverse switch and check its readings as well. Thanks a lot guys :)
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Re: 2000 GL1500SE intermittent no start

Post by ct1500 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:15 pm

I would not be in such a hurry messing around to engage starter when reverse lever is not either fully up or down as you might be getting to know how to replace reverse gears next.


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