88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks


Information and questions on GL1500 Goldwings (1988-2000)
  • Sponsored Links
Post Reply
den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:14 pm



Is there an electrical troubleshooting procedure for starter motor issues on an ‘88 GL1500 ?

Have a new-to-me 1988 GL 1500 with reverse that seemed to start & run reliably when I bought it a week ago. For the next 4-5 days it would start instantly after pressing the start-button with ignition-switch ON, run-switch RUN, side-stand down, in neutral (lamp ON), in forward-gear. Never a need to pull in clutch. Reverse worked fine as needed. On day 5, after a 50-mile ride, I parked in my driveway, side-stand down. Ten minutes.later I turned ignition ON, hit the start-button, got just a solid CLICK sound just forward of the battery. I next tried repeatedly, clutch-IN & OUT, cycling the run-switch, cycling the ignition switch, cycling the forward-reverse lever, cycling the side-stand, no starter action, just the CLICK sound. I checked & the battery measured 12.80Vdc, I thought normal given the ride I’d just taken. The next day the battery was 12.05Vdc, so experimentally I swapped it with the new one from my GL1100 that read a normal-healthy 12.4Vdc, but I still got the same CLICK. Headlight is ON, but goes off with start button push. I can feel one or more relays operating next to the fuse panel.

Is the large item forward of the battery with a solid CLICKing sound Starter Relay Switch A ?
It MUST operate to supply + (positive) potential to the starter motor, right ?

Is the similar but smaller (currently silent) item just rearward of the battery Starter Relay Switch B ?
It MUST operate to supply - (negative) potential to the starter motor, right ? I can't hear or feel it operate right now.

I don’t have a service manual. I’m competent with a multimeter. My owner’s manual shows the location of some key items like the fuse box (all those fuses are OK), main fuses A & B (30A & 55A both OK), and a (seat off) seriously heavy-duty fuse under the seat (65A?) is OK as well.

The owner’s manual also has a diagram that shows 2 wiring harnesses dangling from near the top of the battery, containing 3 reverse-related 5A fuses which I can’t find.

An X scratched into the frame indicates the BAS (Bank Angle Sensor) was recall-updated.

I found a Starting System Diagram in another thread labeled 89Eu Starting System, I assume for a 1989 model. Is the wiring identical for 1988 & 1989 models ? Can you provide a link to the right one ?

It looks like a complex arrangement of switches, sensors, relays & fuses must be in the prescribed condition to apply both + & - potentials to spin the starter.

Any troubleshooting advice (probing, jumpering, component substitution) is much appreciated.



User avatar
Erdeniz Umman
Posts: 653
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:33 am
Location: Ankara Turkey
Motorcycle: 2000 GL1500SE

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:46 am

Here is the simplified and the full diagram of the start/reverse system for the 88 model.

On your model, the relay B is behind the battery, it should click and connect two big terminals to send ground to the starter motor.
There are two 5A fuses behind the battery in a rubber boot, check them.

Note that there are some differences on 88 models from the later models, don't try anything written without confirming on the diagrams.
Attachments





den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:03 am

Bless you, I'll check things out and update ASAP.

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 8358
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by virgilmobile » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:46 am

Keep in mind about the reverse switch...It's the ground path for the negative side of the starter relay.Its on the right side of the engine near the reverse mechanism.Not to be confused with the other switch operater by the reverse lever on the left side.

den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:54 am

I located & checked the three 5A fuses, all good. Starter Relay Switch A is operating, providing +12V to the starter motor.

Starter Relay Switch B (for GROUND to the starter motor) doesn't click, is not operating. Switch B depends on Switch A closing, providing +12V through a 5A fuse then a diode to the YEL/RED wire at the connector for Switch B. Switch B also needs GROUND provided through the REVERSE switch to the GRN/RED wire at the connector for Switch B.

I'm going to double-check, but I don't think I get +12V on the YEL/RED wire, which should operate Switch B. I'll figure out why Switch B doesn't operate.

If both Starter Relay Switch A (apply Starter +12V) & Switch B (apply Starter GROUND) operate, the Starter Motor must spin, right? Or are there other dependencies?

Virgilmobile: how exactly does the Reverse Switch operate to provide the GROUND path for Starter Relay Switch B ?

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 8358
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by virgilmobile » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:37 pm

The yellow/red goes to 12 volts when the button is pushed.The green/red should be the ground circuit.It feeds from the solenoid to the REVERSE switch...It has one wire on it.The switch is grounded when the reverse lever is down and opens when the lever is pulled up.
Either the switch is bad or the reverse operation arm is not on the mark.Its on the right side of the engine and is cable operated.
You can test quick after confirming that the mechanism is lined up on it's marked by using a test light on the REVERSE switch wire.When the start button is pushed,there should not be any volts on that switch contact.Lift the reverse lever and push the start button again and volts should be there.
Last edited by virgilmobile on Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:06 pm

Virgilmobile: twice in your last reply, you referred to the operation of the "neutral switch", but I think you meant REVERSE switch, in each case, correct?

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 8358
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by virgilmobile » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:30 pm

Your correct.A bit distracted with work.Sorry.The reverse switch ..not neutral switch.

den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:44 pm

Some troubleshooting progress:
The ground needed on the GRN/RED wire for Starter Relay Switch B does come & go based on the position of the Reverse Lever.
When Starter Relay Switch A operates, +12V does appear on each side of the 5A fuse (PNK & PNK/WHT wires), but no voltage appears on the YEL/RED wire to activate Switch B.
There is a diode (1 of 4) between the 5A fuse and the Switch B power connector.
Do these diodes go bad?
Are these diodes easily accessible, or buried under the trunk?
If trunk must be loosened or removed, can you point me to the procedure? Appreciated !

User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by ct1500 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:11 pm

den458 wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:44 pm
Do these diodes go bad?
Are these diodes easily accessible,
The diodes typically do not fail but rather suffer loose/chafed wiring. Remove the right saddlebag for access to the diodes which sit hidden in a rubber protector much like the 5A fuses you checked earlier but bigger. It is attached to the saddlebag frame rail which extends forward and down near the top and just below the fuel pump relay. Locate the diode with the pink and yellow/red wires going to it and test for continuity and wiring integrity. Pink for battery (+) with start button pushed and Yel/Red for continuity to relay B with diode removed.
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please click contact
Nothing leaves my shop till its' perfect
This is what I do

User avatar
Erdeniz Umman
Posts: 653
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:33 am
Location: Ankara Turkey
Motorcycle: 2000 GL1500SE

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:46 pm

den458 wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:54 am
I located & checked the three 5A fuses, all good. Starter Relay Switch A is operating, providing +12V to the starter motor.
....
No, there should be two 5A fuses in a rubber boot on the right side of the bike behind the battery. We are not talking about the fuses in the fuse relay box on the left side of the bike.

Make sure you check the correct 5A fuses.
Attachments



den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:08 pm

Erdeniz Umman:
Yes, I found & checked the two 5A fuses in one boot & a 3rd 5A fuse in 2nd boot, all seperate from the fuse panel.

virgilmobile:
Thanks for the diode location guidance. It wasn't easy, under the trunk near the right bag, fishing.
I found a bundle of odd connectors containing these odd little diode modules.
... and... SURPRISE ! .... one connector was empty, I'm missing a diode !
I don't suppose there are any spare diodes anywhere, like spare fuses ?
Is there a least critical diode I can substitute for the missing one to run temporarily?
Looks like they can fall out of the connectors as the old plastic gets brittle & fractures with time.
Wouldn't it be prudent to zip-tie them into the connector so it's impossible to fall out?
Now I need a couple diodes. Can I do without one? Thanks to all for advice.

User avatar
Stew
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:40 am
Location: Smokey Point, WA - USA
Motorcycle: 2000 GL1500 SE
2005 Honda CRF230F

Previous bikes:
2003 Honda Ruckus
1993 Honda Elite SR
1986 Honda CR125R
1979 Yamaha GT80

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by Stew » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:37 pm

I've been following this thread, good work!
Winging it every chance I get 8-)

19,119 miles when I got it from dad Oct 15, 2017 --- 22,072 miles and counting as of June 14, 2018!

User avatar
Erdeniz Umman
Posts: 653
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:33 am
Location: Ankara Turkey
Motorcycle: 2000 GL1500SE

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by Erdeniz Umman » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:54 am

den458 wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:08 pm
Erdeniz Umman:
Yes, I found & checked the two 5A fuses in one boot & a 3rd 5A fuse in 2nd boot, all seperate from the fuse panel.

virgilmobile:
Thanks for the diode location guidance. It wasn't easy, under the trunk near the right bag, fishing.
I found a bundle of odd connectors containing these odd little diode modules.
... and... SURPRISE ! .... one connector was empty, I'm missing a diode !
I don't suppose there are any spare diodes anywhere, like spare fuses ?
Is there a least critical diode I can substitute for the missing one to run temporarily?
Looks like they can fall out of the connectors as the old plastic gets brittle & fractures with time.
Wouldn't it be prudent to zip-tie them into the connector so it's impossible to fall out?
Now I need a couple diodes. Can I do without one? Thanks to all for advice.
If you are missing the diode between the 5A fuse and the starter relay B coil, there will not be too much current there, as you may guess from the rating of the fuse. And I think the relay coil may draw less than 1 amp (probably 0.2-0.3 amp) at 14volts, so you can use the popular 1N4001 or a similar diode rated for 1amp.

For a more accurate result you can do a bench test to measure the current draw of the relay B.

Or you could find the OEM part in this link.
https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda ... ess-except

User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by ct1500 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:31 am

den458 wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:08 pm
Thanks for the diode location guidance. It wasn't easy, under the trunk near the right bag, fishing.
I found a bundle of odd connectors containing these odd little diode modules.
... and... SURPRISE ! .... one connector was empty, I'm missing a diode !
I don't suppose there are any spare diodes anywhere, like spare fuses ?
Is there a least critical diode I can substitute for the missing one to run temporarily?
Looks like they can fall out of the connectors as the old plastic gets brittle & fractures with time.
Wouldn't it be prudent to zip-tie them into the connector so it's impossible to fall out?
Now I need a couple diodes. Can I do without one? Thanks to all for advice.
Do not jump and use without a diode in place bad things could happen when using reverse.
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please click contact
Nothing leaves my shop till its' perfect
This is what I do

den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:06 pm

Temporary missing diode solution: a possibility ?
I'm missing the critical diode in the Starter Relay Switch B circuit, so my starter motor is disabled.
It had definitely been there prior to my 50 mile ride, but somehow loosened & disappeared, oh well.
Clearly, I need one there to re-enable my starter motor...
As I look at the simplified Starting System Diagram, is there a candidate I can temporarily borrow?
I may misunderstand the circuitry, but...
The diode in the path to the Clutch Switch, is it critical? Or is it irrelevant when the clutch is pulled?
Experimentally I could probably explore this idea... but has anyone done this substitution temporarily?
Of course I'll chase a proper diode solution, but what is the consensus on my band-aid idea ?
Feedback much appreciated as always. This has been highly educational for me !

User avatar
virgilmobile
Posts: 8358
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Denham Springs,La.
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500 I
Previously owned
78 GL1000
81 GL1100
82 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 I
83 GL1100 standard
84 GL 1200 I

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by virgilmobile » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:34 pm

Sub the one that's attached to the blue/red-green/red wires for testing.That one is used for the clutch lever switch.
Just watch which way the diode goes in.There marked.

den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:45 pm

I'm not at the bike just now, but I think the way the OEM diode component and the connector/receiver are packaged, orientation is idiot-proof, isn't it?

If I later opt to substitute an axial-leaded component, I'll definitely observe proper polarity.

DaveO430
Posts: 694
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Amity. Ar
Motorcycle: 2010 GL1800
2004 Suzuki DR200

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by DaveO430 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:07 pm

den458 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:45 pm
I'm not at the bike just now, but I think the way the OEM diode component and the connector/receiver are packaged, orientation is idiot-proof, isn't it?

That is true, the diode is in the diode pack, not a separate component. You may be looking at a lead that has no purpose on your bike, a separate connector for some ad on item.

User avatar
AZgl1800
Posts: 932
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:46 pm
Location: Lake Oologah Indian Territory USA
Motorcycle: '02 GL1800

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by AZgl1800 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:10 pm

if you can get it installed, the old standby, 1N4007 will do the job.
See you at NASR-11 July 10th, 11th, 12th 2018

https://goo.gl/maps/2zH93W9YW372

515 E Eads Pkwy, Greendale, IN 47025
812-537-4441

http://www.northamericangoldwings.com/c ... 9-nasr-11/

den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:37 pm

Previous advice: Substitute the diode attached to the blue/red & green/red wires, the one used for the clutch lever switch.

I tried this logical substitution, but then neither Starter Relay Switch A or Switch B would operate for me.
I returned the borrowed diode to its place in series with the PINK & YEL/RED wires.
I'm returned to my original condition, no diode at PINK & YEL/RED connector, Switch A operates & Switch B doesn't.

I'm off to locate some 1N4001 axial-leaded diodes at an electronics supply store, update when I have new results.

User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by ct1500 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:14 pm

I have used readily available 10A04 diodes in automotive applications with excellent results and will suit your needs for that 5A fused circuit.
Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please click contact
Nothing leaves my shop till its' perfect
This is what I do

den458
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: DeKalb, IL 60115 USA
Motorcycle: 1980 & 1982 GL1100s, 1988 GL1500

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by den458 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:34 am

Rather than shop for Honda OEM diodes possibly costing $10-$25 each, & available in 2-5 days....
I picked up 3 of the 1N4007, axial-leaded diodes from my local electronics supply shop, $0.79 each.

How to interpret the markings on an actual diode, & the diode symbol in the schematic?
When you look at the schematic, look carefully at the diode symbol: it partly looks like an arrowhead...
The arrowhead-side is the anode, & the other side, the side the arrow points to, is the cathode.
Why is this important?
A: You won't see that same symbol on the actual diode... &
B: Proper polarity orientation must be observed here, or the downstream relay or switch won't operate.
An axial-leaded diode will have a small, cylindrical body, ring painted around one end, metal leads out each end.
The end with the RING is the CATHODE....
For Switch B, the RING end of my diode connects to the YEL/RED connector wire, the other end to the PINK wire.
The original diode package had 2 spade-style pins, oriented 90 degrees offset, so observing polarity was idiot-proof.
Similarly, using a common wire crimping tool, I crimped spade connectors onto the 2 leads (see 3 pics below).
I pushed the spade-style pin on the RING end of the diode into the connector with the YEL/RED wire...
I pushed the other spade-style pin, turned 90 degrees offset, into the connector with the PINK wire.
Ignition ON, in neutral, side-stand UP, transmission in FORWARD, I hit START button, & WOW - IT STARTED UP !

I wrapped the DIY replacement diode-in-connector carefully, thoroughly with duct tape to prevent it touching anything ever.
The other OEM diodes, using a pull-tie I secured each diode to its connector, I'll never lose another diode unexpectedly.
It'll take me a bit in the morning to button everything back where it belongs. To YOU forum advisors - you're a goldmine !
Attachments







User avatar
ct1500
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Glastonbury,CT
Motorcycle: 1988 GL1500
Contact:

Re: 88 started/ran reliably, no starter now, Relay Switch A clicks

Post by ct1500 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:05 pm

den458 wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:34 am
Rather than shop for Honda OEM diodes possibly costing .
Wrong answer, deleted


Local and need repair help with your 1500, Valkyrie or ST please click contact
Nothing leaves my shop till its' perfect
This is what I do

Post Reply