All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up


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JDAviator
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All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby JDAviator » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:29 am



My 2010 GL1800 (no anti-skid) has had an issue after the secondary and rear master cylinders were replaced for the recall (SB 23). I purchased this bike new in 2011. I have put every one of approximately 32,000 trouble-free miles on this wonderful machine and have performed the majority of my own maintenance with no problems.

When the most recent brake recall was issued in December 2015, the work involved sounded like more than I wanted to undertake. The brake system on the Gold Wing is a bit complicated, so I scheduled the recall to be accomplished by my local dealer. While it was there I had them replace the front brake system fluid (the rear system is flushed with new fluid as part of the recall/SB-23), flush the clutch system and check the valve clearance. It took about a month to get an appointment. Winter is primo riding weather here in Florida, and I was taking full advantage while waiting my turn in line.

One month - and approximately 300 miles - after the recall was accomplished, I was riding in moderate traffic when the brakes started dragging. I noticed the front brake handle was rock solid - no movement available. I was able to get the bike to a safe place and found all 3 brakes to be hot and the discs slightly discolored. I called the dealer, who was unable to come and get the bike. I arranged a tow, but by the time all arrangements had been made the brakes cooled and released. Being only 2 miles from home I was confident I could nurse it to my garage without touching the brakes (I did). I called American Honda Motor Co.the next day for direction, and they strongly encouraged me to return it to the dealer who had done the work. I wasn’t excited about doing this, but believe this is the dealer and/or American Honda Motor Co.’s problem. So I did as they asked. The dealer picked up the bike 2 days later.

Fast forward 5 weeks. The bike is still at the dealer. I’m now being told American Honda Motor Co. wants to do an “investigation”, but I’ve not heard "officially" from them. My dealer told me that one of her tech’s took the bike for a test ride only to have the brakes lock up on the interstate. The discs are definitely discolored now and will have to be replaced.

What would cause all 3 brakes to drag and/or lock up? The recall specifically targeted the rear brake, and the "new design" secondary master cylinder was to have been the definitive fix. I'm tempted to retrieve my GoldWing and try to fix it myself, but I can't help but believe the root cause of this current problem stems from the work done at the recall.



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eklimek
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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby eklimek » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:49 am

Does the lockup cease with opening bleeder?

If yes its hydraulic pressure.

If no its the calipers.

Awaiting outcome of this.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby themainviking » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:08 am

If it was me, I would leave it with the dealership. The tech has duplicated the problem, so they have a starting point. I think you are correct in that their work would appear to be the cause of the problem, and they do need to investigate. I know it is tough to be without your bike, but you are doing the whole Goldwing GL1800 ownership group a favor by letting us know what happens here. If they are any good, you should be happy with the results. You may have to fight them over any charges they come up with. I certainly would not be personally fixing anything that might have been a dealerships fault.
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JDAviator
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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby JDAviator » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:35 am

I could be wrong, but since the brakes free up when they cool wouldn't that indicate a hydraulic problem? I wish I had thought to grab a wrench and bleed the calipers when it happened to me.

I'm traveling for the next 10 days, so the dealer has some more time to figure this out. But I'm losing confidence that they have the desire or perhaps the expertise to properly troubleshoot and repair this issue. And American Honda Motors is becoming increasingly non-communicative. They had "closed" their file on this as of last week with no explanation or resolution (that they would share with me). But as of yesterday I'm told they've reopened it.

I just want it repaired properly. If it's Honda's or the dealers problem, I'd hope they'd step up and take responsibility. If it's something totally unrelated to the work done at the recall, that will take some convincing but I get that stuff happens.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby eklimek » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:42 am

"brakes free up when they cool" - implies only heat-induced expansion and friction.

Need to open bleeder to demonstrate hydraulic involvement.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby Big Bee » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:59 pm

Ohhh boy, this is interesting. I just got Wing (2010 non ABS) back from the dealer after having SB23 performed and front fluid changed a couple of hours ago, then I read this. I'll really be watching my brakes for awhile. JDAviator, even though your front brake handle locked up, what did the rear brake pedal do? Did it lock up too, like the front? Did the dealer use DOT 4 brake fluid during the fluid replacement? What gets me is that if all 3 discs are overheated, then that leads me to a rear brake system issue. The front brake system handle isn't tied in to the rear brake disc according to the Honda manual.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby JDAviator » Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:26 am

To the best of my knowledge, they used the brake fluid called out for (and I believe supplied with) SB23. But I wasn't looking over their shoulders when they performed the work ;)

I don't recall the rear brake pedal having no play like the front. But all 3 discs are now blue from overheating.

I heard from American Honda Motors again yesterday. They seem to have taken a renewed interest in this. I'm hoping for some kind of resolution in the next week and will post back here when I know more.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby Big Bee » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:36 pm

The schematic in the Honda "big book" is like a rental car map, good enough to get you lost. On another forum, there is a bro with a problem somewhat like JD's. Brake problem involving the front brakes at about 300 miles after the recall was performed by the dealer, moderate traffic, mountain riding. I got a real education there (forgive me WingAdmin) on the SMC operation and a real decent brake schematic. This leads me to throw my previous post in to the trash what I previously said about the brakes. In about 270 miles, I'll be hitting the 300 mile mark. I'll be hitting the books good and hard learning about this system, especially after seeing how the SMC really works. Should this happen to me, I'll be sporting a wrench for the bleeder screw, rags, and remote thermometer. As my shoulder heals, I'll go over fluid levels, and SMC push rod angle. As I said in the other forum, JDAviator should also file a complaint with the NTSB to establish a paperwork trail outside of Mother Honda.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby iancardwell » Sun May 01, 2016 11:17 am

Hi, I live in the UK not the USA but we also are subject to the rear brake recall. My 2016 had to have the work done and the first time I rode it after the works had been completed I too suffered a brake seizure.
The foot pedal went really hard. I must say I can't remember whether the front lever went firm too but the rear pedal definitely did.

The only way I could move the bike was to release the pressure on the new Master cylinder banjo nut at the top of the unit. As soon as I did this the brakes worked fine for a short time but then seizure again. I released the pressure again to ride home and then reported the problem to my dealer.
Honda UK told them to do some investigative works and the problem turned out to be a FAULTY rear brake master cylinder that they'd fitted when the brake recall work was done.
This bike is now on its 3rd rear master cylinder but this time all is working fine.
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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby oldguysrule » Sat May 07, 2016 1:14 pm

Wow....I truly wish I would have read this a few days ago. I certainly would have given second thought my plans for sure. I had the recall service completed a couple days ago on the 5th, rode the bike home 25 miles then promptly left for a 450 mile quick roundtrip. Brake feel was perfect when I left the dealer and it remained good throughout my trip, but this experience makes me realize things could have gone much, much worse, Thank God the only problem I experienced was the dealer tech installed the wrong front fender. He installed a scratched black fender (mine is dark blue and scratch free) that issue was quickly remedied yesterday.
Sorry to hear that not all brake recall services are going smoothly. There's No excuse, since you'd think they've done enough of them by now to get it right the first time! My dealer did two the morning I had mine done. :shock:

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby JDAviator » Sat May 07, 2016 6:27 pm

6 weeks + 2 days - my bike is still at the dealer. I should know more soon and will post an update.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby MikeB » Sat May 07, 2016 7:29 pm

I had mine done the day before Christmas and picked it up the day after Christmas. I've ridden it well over 3000 miles since with no issues at all.
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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby BBrenner » Mon May 16, 2016 7:52 pm

when they replaced the master cylinder the free play must not have been adjusted correctly . Lack in experience or rushing to get the job done. It stands to reason that if you don't have a concern until after repairs are made then the repairs need to be looked at. I had the recall done with no problem before or after . The mechanic in me says that because this is a linked system if the rear brakes are being applied because the new master cylinder was not adjusted properly then all wheels will be applied and thus we have hot brakes. The same thing would happen if you keep a slight pressure on the rear brake like using it for a foot rest. If the adjustment is off just a slight amount we have applied the brakes

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby iancardwell » Mon May 16, 2016 8:08 pm

Hi Bbrenner, I get your thinking BUT it wasn't the free play adjustment that was wrong on my bike it turned out to be a FAULTY rear brake master cylinder.
They weren't under any pressure to get the brake recall work finished and they didn't rush it, in fact they did a good job. The problem wasn't with the mechanics work or his lack of experience, it was a faulty component.
The 2nd new master cylinder (the 3rd one for this bike) has been fine since it was fitted and I've now got no brake issues at all.
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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby BBrenner » Tue May 17, 2016 5:53 am

good to hear that you got it fixed. Bad to hear a defective part on a system that has everyone who rides a wing worried. Hope this time its all good and you have lots of safe trouble free miles

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby JDAviator » Tue May 24, 2016 2:33 pm

After 8 1/2 weeks, I have my Goldwing back. It appears to be fixed.

A brief refresher: when I took the bike in for the recall, there were 3 additional work order items for the dealer to accomplish:

1. Check the valve clearances (approximately 31,000 miles on the bike at the time of the work);
2. Flush and replace the clutch fluid;
3. Flush and replace the front brake fluid.

The recall SB includes a complete flush and fill of the rear brake system, so that was covered.

Approximately 300 miles after the above work was accomplished, all 3 brake calipers were dragging to the point of locking up.

Ultimately, it appears that a total rebuild of the front master cylinder has fixed the problem. Supposedly the seals were all "swollen". No one can tell me why this occurred, but they're certain it is coincidental and NOT a result of the brake work performed 300 miles prior. My cost: $296. No warranty for this final fix. I paid it because I wanted my bike back in my possession. I'm considering my options to recover the $296.

Along the way, all 3 calipers were disassembled and checked for corrosion (none found) and rebuilt using new seals. Both brake systems were flushed, filled and bled again at least twice with fresh DOT 4 brake fluid (or so I've been told). After these troubleshooting attempts, the technician who performed the work took the bike on a test ride and duplicated the problem on the interstate (and scared himself in the process). The bike had to be recovered with a trailer. They also saw the brakes lock up just sitting outside in the sun.

American Honda Motor Co. was adamant about not letting the dealer rework the recall, although I now know first hand that a similar problem was fixed by doing exactly that - a complete re-do of SB23, including new parts. They refuse to accept any responsibility for the problem I'm experiencing. They've left the dealer hanging out to dry.

I don't know (and may never know) what really happened, but I don't believe for a minute that if the front master cylinder seals were swollen that this was a coincidence. I'm certain that something improper was done during the recall work scope that induced the failure I experienced. Maybe improper brake fluid was used when they flushed the front brake system the first time (I have never had either brake or the clutch system open in the 4/12 years / 31000 miles I've owned the bike since new).

I put 50 miles on my Goldwing leaving the dealer. I did panic stops and a couple of maximum performance stops from a higher rate of speed. It is 90 degrees here today, so this heated everything up pretty good. Everything worked fine. I'm slowly regaining confidence in the bike - maybe just in time to go trade it in for a move to the dark side.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby GLRT » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:36 am

It seems odd that here I am with a 15 year old GL18 and others with older GL's which were fine and suddenly along comes a brake recall and now everyone is having brake issues. I did get the recall notice but tossed it as it does not apply to my GL any longer. My secondary master is gone and brakes delinked so what I have is a standard lever runs the front wheels and pedal runs the rear setup.
I can work on many GL's and can duplicate the brake issues at will. If the secondary master which is mounted on the left fork leg does not fully retract the piston covers the bleed hole and hydraulic pressure builds until the brakes all lock. One way to release the stuck brakes is to roll the bike backwards which should pull the piston down and release the pressure, crack the bleed on the secondary or physically extend the piston by pushing the caliper down.
Much like the ADV a clean and scrub only temporarily remedies the problem. In the ADV case disabling is the cure. While delinking the GL brakes and bypassing the secondary master will fix the issue it's not exactly the best scenario. At least not if the bike is intended to stay stock with 2 wheels. In my case it is done not to fix this issue but to accommodate a trike conversion system.
One thing I have discovered which may or may not be of significance is the use of Dot5 fluid, I tried some on one of my setups and found the brake calipers would seize and brakes would lock. Evidently the Dot5 synthetic is not compatible with older seals.
The brake system on the GL is a bit odd to say the least and getting all the mechanics to work in balance is not always the easiest. But the focus needs to be placed upon the secondary master as the culprit in this deal in my opinion.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby rachester67 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:19 am

My 2012 with ABS didn't have any problems with brakes when I received the recall. The recall was completed in December and I have put approximately 5000 miles on it since without any problems. Will keep my fingers crossed that I don't have any issues.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby Stu_O » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:43 am

JDAviator wrote:After 8 1/2 weeks, I have my Goldwing back. It appears to be fixed.

And I hope it stays fixed, Jerry. Maybe my suggestion to look at pushrod length was off base, maybe not. I just wish that after I took the time to research and answer the question you sent to Workbench, the exact same text as in your original post here, that you would have at least gotten back to me with the eventual outcome, so I could post it in the magazine for all Members to read. BTW, you never mentioned to me that you'd gone 4 1/2 years and more than 30,000 miles without flushing the lever brake system. Could that have contributed to the issue? Ya think? RTFM

Stu O

So what’s causing the brake drag with eventual lockup and the hard front lever? The hard front lever may be the result of the tremendous heating of the brake fluid and brake components. The root cause? The pushrod length of either the Secondary Master Cylinder (SMC) or rear master cylinder may be incorrectly adjusted, causing the brake pistons operated by the rear master cylinder and/or SMC to not fully release. Adjustment shouldn’t be necessary and isn’t addressed in the TSB, but one never knows... I suppose failure of a brake system component not directly related to this repair is possible, but the pushrod length adjustments would be the first thing I’d be looking at. Acceptable dimensions prior to installation are shown in the service manual.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby CMReynolds1 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:25 pm

Very informative JD. Thank you for sharing all your troubles and 'fixes'. I hope you are good to go for another 31K!
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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby 2manywings » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:16 pm

One thing that really jumped out at me after reading all of this (and Stu touched on it too). This bike is a 2010 that was bought new 4 1/2 years ago and had never had the brake/clutch fluids change until recently. Being a 2010, this bike was built possibly 6 1/2 to 7 years ago, so that's possibly how old that fluid really was. A lot of nasty things happen to those systems when the fluid gets that old. The fluid will get so thick and crusty that all the flushing in the world won't help. And I'm sure that the high humidity in Florida will accelerate the problem.These fluids need to be changed every two years (as stated in the maintenance schedule) or this kind of stuff will happen. Some are eager to jump all over Mother Honda when something happens to our beloved Wings, but never give a second thought about the abuse that we sometime put them through. We have responsibilities as bike owners here folks if we want to keep these machines running tip top.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby JDAviator » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:27 pm

Thanks for the response here, Stu. As always, I truly appreciate your words of wisdom. I had every intent to respond to you directly. I recovered my bike and promptly left town for work. I apologize I wasn't more timely in getting back to you.

I have RTFM. Often. Did the fluids not having been changed prior cause the problem? I find that difficult to believe. The dealer flushed both systems with new fluid (I assume DOT 4). Again, there was absolutely no indication of problems prior to their opening of the systems and performing the work. If the older fluid was the problem why didn't the swollen seal failure present itself before the systems were disturbed? And if one goes beyond 2 years before replacing brake and clutch fluid, does this automatically necessitate replacing every seal in these systems?

Thanks again for everyone's input. And best of luck with your brake systems.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby swfly » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:22 am

i am fairly new to the wing but with over 40 yrs exp. in the auto industry, an when someone mentions all wheels or front wheels locking up the first place we look is the brake hoses. hoses have a tendency to brake down on the inside causing it to collapse when the brakes are applied. sometimes it will release an sometimes it will stay collapsed locking the rotor until the vehicle stops. after all that has been tried it seems to me that this is one solution that may have been over looked. good luck.
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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby 2manywings » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:01 am

As you say JD, we will never know what really happened. I make my living working on these things (have my own shop), so I see this kind of stuff daily. Personally, I highly doubt that there were any "swollen seals". I have yet to rebuild an 1800 front master. My hunch is that you had some hardening or solidified old fluid clogging relief passages. You asked what happens to fluid as it ages... As it ages, moisture enters the system and changes it from being a fluid to mud to tar to some sort of hardened (crystallized) stuff. That's why age is more of a factor than miles. If you've ever pulled the reservoir cover on either handlebar master (brake or clutch) and found the fluid to be really dark, chances are that the material in the bottom of that reservoir and in the cavity that houses the piston is "Mud" or worse. In the calipers... hardened fluid gets in behind the seals, expands and causes the seals to squeeze the pistons to the point that they won't retract when you let off the lever (or peddle on the rear). There's a point in time when the fluids gets so bad, that just flushing with fresh fluid won't purge the system of the contaminated fluid. I'm speculating here, but I truly think that in the process of rebuilding your front master, they got rid of the crud that was clogging things up. This whole brake recall issue is a real mess and I'm glad that Honda is doing what they are, but we as owners must do our part to make sure that maintenance is done on a timely basis. This is a case where our own actions (or lack of) can cause major problems.

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Re: All 3 Brake Calipers Drag - Lock Up

Postby JDAviator » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:10 pm

Okay folks. You can take me to the woodshed for my Wing abuse. It won't ever happen again. I've already set a calendar reminder to replace my brake fluid 2 years to the day from May 25th, 2016.

Mea culpa aside, there's still much I don't understand.

I would have thought that American Honda Motors would have their dealers on the lookout for nasty fluid. If I'm them, I would be all over an owner (like me) who failed to change their fluid per their recommendations. Perhaps this is causing more of the problems than any issue with the secondary master cylinder?

The calipers were disassembled and checked. I was told they were spotless. They did replace the seals.

No one said a word about finding gunk in my front master cylinder. If I'm the dealer, and because of how high profile these brake issues are, I'm getting photographic evidence of any lack of brake system maintenance.

So I'm not above eating my slice of humble pie. There is that possibility that not changing the brake fluid in a timely manner MAY have been the root cause of whatever was really wrong. The fact is I will probably never know for sure.




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