Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800


Information and questions on GL1800 Goldwings (2001-Present)
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Defender
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by Defender » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:47 pm



Thanks for the info, my bike had a 55 on it when I bought it but alas, it is worn out, I'm looking for info and appreciate the input. I do like the car tire ride and feel so will probably buy another ct.



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823JIM
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by 823JIM » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:11 am

Road and Track has positive outlook on the CT debate.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture ... torcycles/
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by wing rider 2012 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:47 pm

Let me start this off by saying that I really don't care what type of tire you install on your bike. A car tire and a motorcycle are fundamentally different and there is a reason for this, riding on 4 wheels and riding on 2 wheels are fundamentally different. I believe that if car tires were the same as motorcycle tires then Honda would install them on their bikes. There is a lot of science that goes into tires, both for cars and motorcycles. Why are motorcycle tires manufactured with a rounded design and car tires manufactured with a flat design? It is due to the, again, fundamental difference between the handling of a motorcycle and that of a car. This difference is noticed more in cornering than on a straight piece of road. The "G" forces exerted on a motorcycle tire in a curve is about 1.5 G's compared to a car in the same curve their tire at 1 G. This is why a car tire can have a more flexible sidewall than a motorcycle. The down force and the side forces exerted on a motorcycle tire in a curve is called "Camber Thrust" this is why a motorcycle tire will have stiffer sidewalls than a car tire. This downward force creates friction and friction creates grip. So, a car tire may be fine for your style of riding, but make sure you use the right equipment for your style of riding.

Here is a good article about this: http://www.genjac.com/BoomerBiker/Two%2 ... hysics.htm
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by 823JIM » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:39 pm

wing rider 2012 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:47 pm
----------- A car tire and a motorcycle are fundamentally different ----------- So, a car tire may be fine for your style of riding, but make sure you use the right equipment for your style of riding.

Here is a good article about this: http://www.genjac.com/BoomerBiker/Two%2 ... hysics.htm
The style of riding that us who are using car tires is called "touring", and mostly two up touring, also trailer towing on long trips. I would not at all suggest a CT be used on a sport bike/crotch rocket or road race bike. As I am sure you do not believe the lean angles and G loads are the same with the vast difference of these styles of riding. I do not believe attempting the lean angles you imply in tire loads are either wise or safe in two up riding of a large touring bike such as a Goldwing. So yes, as you stated style of riding makes a large difference in tire choice. But I prefer the better traction and braking, practically on wet roads the car tire offers on a full size touring motorcycle.

And my bike does handle just fine in the curves, last photo is wife and I on Moonshine 28.
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by wing rider 2012 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:00 pm

823JIM wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:39 pm
wing rider 2012 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:47 pm
----------- A car tire and a motorcycle are fundamentally different ----------- So, a car tire may be fine for your style of riding, but make sure you use the right equipment for your style of riding.

Here is a good article about this: http://www.genjac.com/BoomerBiker/Two%2 ... hysics.htm
The style of riding that us who are using car tires is called "touring", and mostly two up touring, also trailer towing on long trips. I would not at all suggest a CT be used on a sport bike/crotch rocket or road race bike. As I am sure you do not believe the lean angles and G loads are the same with the vast difference of these styles of riding. I do not believe attempting the lean angles you imply in tire loads are either wise or safe in two up riding of a large touring bike such as a Goldwing. So yes, as you stated style of riding makes a large difference in tire choice. But I prefer the better traction and braking, practically on wet roads the car tire offers on a full size touring motorcycle.

And my bike does handle just fine in the curves, last photo is wife and I on Moonshine 28.
Camber thrust is related to speed, the higher the speed in a curve the greater the camber thrust, however, this dynamic applies to all speeds on a motorcycle due to the fundamental way a motorcycle takes a curve. It is the leaning action of a motorcycle that creates camber thrust and this force is applied regardless of speed. This is the reason motorcycle tires have a stiffer side wall than a car tire. A car tire in a curve will exhibit sidewall flexing, and depending on the speed and the curve the tire will flex to maintain a flat pattern on the road surface, that is until, friction is broken or sidewall failure, there is no downward force being applied to the tires with the exception of the weight of the car. For a motorcycle, entering a curve at the same speed of any car the dynamics are completely different. You have 3 actions at play here, gravity, centrifugal force and the gyroscopic action of the wheels and tires. Seeing how your center of gravity has changed, you will have gravity trying to pull you down, centrifugal force will exert a force parallel with the bike, and the gyroscopic action will try and upright the bike, this creates a camber force which will be exerted onto the sidewall of the tires.
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by 823JIM » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:15 pm

wing rider 2012 wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:00 pm
823JIM wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:39 pm
wing rider 2012 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:47 pm
----------- A car tire and a motorcycle are fundamentally different ----------- So, a car tire may be fine for your style of riding, but make sure you use the right equipment for your style of riding.

Here is a good article about this: http://www.genjac.com/BoomerBiker/Two%2 ... hysics.htm
The style of riding that us who are using car tires is called "touring", and mostly two up touring, also trailer towing on long trips. I would not at all suggest a CT be used on a sport bike/crotch rocket or road race bike. As I am sure you do not believe the lean angles and G loads are the same with the vast difference of these styles of riding. I do not believe attempting the lean angles you imply in tire loads are either wise or safe in two up riding of a large touring bike such as a Goldwing. So yes, as you stated style of riding makes a large difference in tire choice. But I prefer the better traction and braking, practically on wet roads the car tire offers on a full size touring motorcycle.

And my bike does handle just fine in the curves, last photo is wife and I on Moonshine 28.
Camber thrust is related to speed, the higher the speed in a curve the greater the camber thrust, however, this dynamic applies to all speeds on a motorcycle due to the fundamental way a motorcycle takes a curve. It is the leaning action of a motorcycle that creates camber thrust and this force is applied regardless of speed. This is the reason motorcycle tires have a stiffer side wall than a car tire. A car tire in a curve will exhibit sidewall flexing, and depending on the speed and the curve the tire will flex to maintain a flat pattern on the road surface, that is until, friction is broken or sidewall failure, there is no downward force being applied to the tires with the exception of the weight of the car. For a motorcycle, entering a curve at the same speed of any car the dynamics are completely different. You have 3 actions at play here, gravity, centrifugal force and the gyroscopic action of the wheels and tires. Seeing how your center of gravity has changed, you will have gravity trying to pull you down, centrifugal force will exert a force parallel with the bike, and the gyroscopic action will try and upright the bike, this creates a camber force which will be exerted onto the sidewall of the tires.
Yeah, what you said.. "the tire will flex to maintain a flat pattern on the road surface" leaving a larger foot print, more rubber on the ground. "that is until, friction is broken or sidewall failure," more rubber on ground equals more friction (aka grip) which is the whole point. Have never heard of car tire side wall failure on a motorcycle. I realize I am not looking a this in the engineering and scientific terms that you are, just saying what I know works from experience (over 30,000 miles on CT on this bike). Sorry if I'm sounding argumentative.
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by wing rider 2012 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:22 pm

823JIM wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:15 pm
wing rider 2012 wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:00 pm
823JIM wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:39 pm


The style of riding that us who are using car tires is called "touring", and mostly two up touring, also trailer towing on long trips. I would not at all suggest a CT be used on a sport bike/crotch rocket or road race bike. As I am sure you do not believe the lean angles and G loads are the same with the vast difference of these styles of riding. I do not believe attempting the lean angles you imply in tire loads are either wise or safe in two up riding of a large touring bike such as a Goldwing. So yes, as you stated style of riding makes a large difference in tire choice. But I prefer the better traction and braking, practically on wet roads the car tire offers on a full size touring motorcycle.

And my bike does handle just fine in the curves, last photo is wife and I on Moonshine 28.


Camber thrust is related to speed, the higher the speed in a curve the greater the camber thrust, however, this dynamic applies to all speeds on a motorcycle due to the fundamental way a motorcycle takes a curve. It is the leaning action of a motorcycle that creates camber thrust and this force is applied regardless of speed. This is the reason motorcycle tires have a stiffer side wall than a car tire. A car tire in a curve will exhibit sidewall flexing, and depending on the speed and the curve the tire will flex to maintain a flat pattern on the road surface, that is until, friction is broken or sidewall failure, there is no downward force being applied to the tires with the exception of the weight of the car. For a motorcycle, entering a curve at the same speed of any car the dynamics are completely different. You have 3 actions at play here, gravity, centrifugal force and the gyroscopic action of the wheels and tires. Seeing how your center of gravity has changed, you will have gravity trying to pull you down, centrifugal force will exert a force parallel with the bike, and the gyroscopic action will try and upright the bike, this creates a camber force which will be exerted onto the sidewall of the tires.
Yeah, what you said.. "the tire will flex to maintain a flat pattern on the road surface" leaving a larger foot print, more rubber on the ground. "that is until, friction is broken or sidewall failure," more rubber on ground equals more friction (aka grip) which is the whole point. Have never heard of car tire side wall failure on a motorcycle. I realize I am not looking a this in the engineering and scientific terms that you are, just saying what I know works from experience (over 30,000 miles on CT on this bike). Sorry if I'm sounding argumentative.
I completely agree with your post, I know a lot of riders that are Darksiders, I don't have a problem with that. I was just trying to point out the differences between the two tires and the science that goes into them. Agreed, most touring bikes can run a car tire with no problem, due to the nature of touring.
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by 823JIM » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Thank you wing rider 2012 for the good discussion and your input on this subject. Been nice talking with ya, and thank you for your service to this country.
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by Fatwing Chris » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:28 pm

Defender wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:15 am
I am looking at a a cheap Walmart winter tire 195 65r16. It has what looks like a more rounded tread profile. Will the tire fit? It has a 400 tread depth.
Anyone that is looking at CT's please,please don't post on the forums that you're looking at or running a $49.95 tire on your Wing.That just feeds the nay-sayers.They focus on the false fact that we run CT's because they're cheaper.Most of us that run them buy expensive tires contrary to popular belief.Yes they are slightly cheaper but that benefit is was down the list of benefits.
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by Fatwing Chris » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:36 pm

Fatwing Chris wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:28 pm
Defender wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:15 am
I am looking at a a cheap Walmart winter tire 195 65r16. It has what looks like a more rounded tread profile. Will the tire fit? It has a 400 tread depth.
Anyone that is looking at CT's please,please don't post on the forums that you're looking at or running a $49.95 tire on your Wing.That just feeds the nay-sayers.They focus on the false fact that we run CT's because they're cheaper.Most of us that run them buy expensive tires contrary to popular belief.Yes they are slightly cheaper but that benefit is was down the list of benefits.
BTW The previous posts seem to say that CT's are only good for laid back type of touring.That statement is far from true(sorry).Science might tell you that but real life riding is completely different.Sometimes things on paper just don't transfer to real life experiences.For those of you that know or heard of YellowWolf(a man that has ridden the Dragon probably more than any one alive)and ridden it hard stated that he was faster with a CT on the back.The wife and I ran the Dragon in the rain a couple of years ago in the rain with a CT and not a whole lot slower than we did last year when it was dry.You worry more about the frt washing out than having the rear go away.
If I'da known it would last this long,I'da taken better care of it.
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by AZgl1800 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:49 pm

I agree with the two previous posts.

the E3 on the rear of my 2002 GL1800 was absolutely dangerous in the wet or where a previous rain had washed sand and gravel across country road near a turn.

My multiple experiences with that tire over a time span of about 3 months, made it very clear that for me, one who rides hard and fast, with or without the trailer, something had to change.

I bought a premium tire because of recommendations, it is a Michelin run flat and since it was installed, it has never, ever once threatened to hydroplane, or swing out sideways on me regardless of the type of terrain. On a trip to the east coast in 2015, Lopeha who was my guardian ( for healh reasons ) rode with me every step of the way. We went through hundreds of miles in rain where we probably should have stopped.

But, with RF tires on both bikes, we just donned our Frogg Toggs and kept going.
John
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daughter named her Big Bird :lol:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com

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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by 823JIM » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:32 pm

Fatwing Chris wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:36 pm
Fatwing Chris wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:28 pm
Defender wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:15 am
I am looking at a a cheap Walmart winter tire 195 65r16. It has what looks like a more rounded tread profile. Will the tire fit? It has a 400 tread depth.
Anyone that is looking at CT's please,please don't post on the forums that you're looking at or running a $49.95 tire on your Wing.That just feeds the nay-sayers.They focus on the false fact that we run CT's because they're cheaper.Most of us that run them buy expensive tires contrary to popular belief.Yes they are slightly cheaper but that benefit is was down the list of benefits.
BTW The previous posts seem to say that CT's are only good for laid back type of touring.That statement is far from true(sorry).Science might tell you that but real life riding is completely different.Sometimes things on paper just don't transfer to real life experiences.For those of you that know or heard of YellowWolf(a man that has ridden the Dragon probably more than any one alive)and ridden it hard stated that he was faster with a CT on the back.The wife and I ran the Dragon in the rain a couple of years ago in the rain with a CT and not a whole lot slower than we did last year when it was dry.You worry more about the frt washing out than having the rear go away.


I did not intend to imply that at all, if it sounded like that I am sorry. I ride just about every Tuesday night (summers) with a group with diverse motorcycles. The ride captain (leader) rides a 1400 Kawasaki Concourse . I have no problem keeping up with this sport touring bike in the corners with my CT equipped 2003 'wing, and can outrun must in the group.
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by frostypop » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:29 pm

well a few months ago I told you about the bike I bought with a CT on the back, I put 700 miles on then decided to replace it, it was down to the indicators. I decided to go back with a MT and I like the MT better. I like it in the corners and on angle drive ways like coming out of gas stations. the CT wanted to push you down the angle quicker than the MT does. so that's my thoughts 8-)

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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by 823JIM » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:17 pm

frostypop wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:29 pm
well a few months ago I told you about the bike I bought with a CT on the back, I put 700 miles on then decided to replace it, it was down to the indicators. I decided to go back with a MT and I like the MT better. I like it in the corners and on angle drive ways like coming out of gas stations. the CT wanted to push you down the angle quicker than the MT does. so that's my thoughts 8-)
Car tires do have a little different feel to them. But not all motorcycle tires feel the same and some have different handling characteristics than others. Not everyone will like the feel of a CT and or give it the time to get use to. 700 miles on a wore out tire is not much time to make a decision, and I am sure not everyone here would agree on the tire you did decide on. We all have to decide what we are comfortable with.
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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by AZgl1800 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:27 pm

My current Michelin CT has a more square profile than I would like.
Yes, it does want to "straighten up" at slow speeds, and there is a definite feel in slow speed turns that we do not experience with a round m/c tire.

My next rear tire, will be another RF but it will definitely have a much more rounded profile than my Michelin has.

I have a spare Michelin in the garage that I bought to have on hand in case I had a flat, but, I am thinking that is nonsense, I need to sell it so the date/code don't expire.

Anyone want a Michelin Primacy Alpin PA3 195/55/16 RF ZP
if we can agree on the cost, it is yours. will get the date code




John
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daughter named her Big Bird :lol:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com

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Re: Auto Tire on the Rear, GL1800

Post by frostypop » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:49 pm

I went with the Dunlop E4 tires on front and back. I like the way ride so far. we will see how many miles I get out of them 8-) I am not against the CT tire on a bike anymore. I compared them side by side and as far as I could tell the bead was not much different, it looked like it was mounted up find to me. I looked up the tire on internet and it said what size rim it should be mounted on, if I remember right it was a 5 to 6 inch rim, which is what the back rim is. 8-)



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