Motorcycle crime in England


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Motorcycle crime in England

Post by WingAdmin » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:50 am



Apparently motorcycle crime in England has been skyrocketing in the last couple of years - one or two criminals, on a scooter, moped or even a small motorcycle, will grab a purse/otherwise mug an unwary victim, and speed off before the victim has any chance to do anything.

The policy of police has up until now been to only pursue these thieves if it's safe for everyone. The criminals figured out that if they removed their helmets, the police would not chase them, so they have started doing these crimes bare-headed.

But no more: London police are now using what they call "tactical contact" to combat these thieves:






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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by rudolphwolven » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:29 am

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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by Aussie81Interstate » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:06 pm

The only thing wrong with that is if some one is critically injured or even killed with an incident like that - then I can only imagine what the courts would do.

Personal view is - do the crime - expect to be punished - and no mercy shown - losing your life for a bag **** - could be a little over the top imho

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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by Sadanorakman » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:02 am

UK born and bred here.

There's a fundamental issue with this regarding Policing in the UK. We are a society supposedly 'policed by consent'.

This means that the police don't have the right in law to simply knock someone off of their motorbike thus potentially causing them personal injury, regardless if that individual has just punched someone in the face and stolen their mobile phone.

Already since the 'met' (Metropolitan Police) i.e. the London Force issued these stronger intervention guidelines, then one of these recent incidents is being looked into by the police complaints commission. The police officer involved may well be prosecuted due to the thieving scrote (who had committed multiple offences) getting injured when he was knocked off the scooter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46440172

My initial gut feeling is that these scrotes should have no rights, and almost anything should be considered fair to take them off their scooters when they are terrorizing the public. Thing is, if you condone this level of unchecked intervention, then eventually the police get emboldened, the inherent corruption that always exists within these organisations grows unchecked, and you end up with a police state.

There's no easy answer to this... how far should measures go? Nobody should be beyond the law!
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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by Pam » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:37 am

I would certainly hope that prior to issuing this change in policy to combat this crime that Upper management in the Police organization did there due dilagence and research. I would also think they should have gotten some guidence from prosecution lawyers not to mention civil lawyers to ensure that the officers at the street level had some sort of portection for doing there job and following policy.

Just my thoughts

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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by Sidcar » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:54 am

It has to be pointed out that since the police started using this tactic there has been a noticeable drop "scooter crime". No bad thing.

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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by brettchallenger » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:58 am

Personal view is - do the crime - expect to be punished - and no mercy shown - losing your life for a bag **** - could be a little over the top imho
I wonder what the position would be in Australia if a gang of young men on scooters, violently attacked and robbed someone on the street and made their get away on scooters. Given that the Australian police are routinely armed (they still are not here in the UK), would a police officer consider using a firearm on such an occasion, especially if an indvidual being chased was believed to be armed with a knife?
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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by Maz » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:32 am

This is a subject that is very close to my heart and I am involved with on a daily basis, for reasons that I will not divulge on an open forum. It should be noted that the vast majority of the scooters being used in these crimes are, as expected, stolen. In the majority of cases, the "mugging" is merely the first of the offences to be committed during an event. In order to get away from the crime scene, the scooters will be ridden at ridiculous speeds along pavements (US sidewalks) crowded with pedestrians who WILL be mown down if the perpetrators deem them to be an obstruction to their flight to freedom. I have heard opinions from all sides of the argument but I would like to know the following;

a) Is this type of crime prevalent outside the UK and, if so, what action would your Law Enforcement agencies take?
b) If you, or a close family member were one of the unfortunate victims of either the initial theft of the scooter, the mugging aspect or the injury caused by being hit by a scooter at 40+ mph while walking along the pavement (sidewalk), what action would you like to see taken?
c) What ideas do you have to reduce this crime?

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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by WingAdmin » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:48 am

Maz wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:32 am
This is a subject that is very close to my heart and I am involved with on a daily basis, for reasons that I will not divulge on an open forum. It should be noted that the vast majority of the scooters being used in these crimes are, as expected, stolen. In the majority of cases, the "mugging" is merely the first of the offences to be committed during an event. In order to get away from the crime scene, the scooters will be ridden at ridiculous speeds along pavements (US sidewalks) crowded with pedestrians who WILL be mown down if the perpetrators deem them to be an obstruction to their flight to freedom. I have heard opinions from all sides of the argument but I would like to know the following;

a) Is this type of crime prevalent outside the UK and, if so, what action would your Law Enforcement agencies take?
b) If you, or a close family member were one of the unfortunate victims of either the initial theft of the scooter, the mugging aspect or the injury caused by being hit by a scooter at 40+ mph while walking along the pavement (sidewalk), what action would you like to see taken?
c) What ideas do you have to reduce this crime?

Maz
I rarely (if ever) hear of this type of crime in the US. Whenever I hear of "scooter muggings" it always seems to be from Europe or Mexico/South America.

Brett asked what would happen in Australia, with armed police. I can tell you what would happen in the US: the police are not allowed to simply shoot fleeing criminals. However - if that criminal was riding at speed on a sidewalk, mowing down pedestrians, here in the US that criminal could expect to meet his end very quickly due to extensive lead poisoning. Police will not hesitate to open fire on someone who is actively doing something that is injuring and potentially killing innocent people. Perhaps that's why this kind of thing doesn't occur here?

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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by brettchallenger » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:06 am

Perhaps that's why this kind of thing doesn't occur here?
I suspect the reason why this behaviour is more common in Europe - it has long been a problem in Southern Europe, are the nature of cities here. Thankfully, in the UK, this phenonemon has so far been limited to big cities, in particular London and to a much lesser extent Birmingham. And without trying to sound racist, the crimes are mainly though not exclusively committed by young black men. Modern "twist and go" scooters make excellent escape vehicles, they are fast and very manoevreable. Big English cities are full of small alley ways, parks, cycle lanes, canal tow paths and pedestrian paths which can easily be utilised as escape routes, places where cars simply cannot follow. There have also been a number of incidents where quite innocent people have been killed or badly injured by police pursuit vehicles and for a long time the police were instructed not to give chase to fleeing criminals in case third parties were injured. Moreover, those being chased would sometimes take off and discard their crash helmets, again making the police reticent to pursue in case a person was subsequently injured as a result.
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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by Sadanorakman » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:57 am

Maz wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:32 am

a) Is this type of crime prevalent outside the UK and, if so, what action would your Law Enforcement agencies take?
b) If you, or a close family member were one of the unfortunate victims of either the initial theft of the scooter, the mugging aspect or the injury caused by being hit by a scooter at 40+ mph while walking along the pavement (sidewalk), what action would you like to see taken?
c) What ideas do you have to reduce this crime?

Maz
A: I believe this type of crime was prevalent in Italy and France years ago... Scooter-borne handbag and jewelry snatching mainly. This was before the number of scooters exploded in the UK. Whether they still have issues with it now, I don't know. Hot-spots would be the tourist-rich environments.

B: Mostly, people want to see a process of justice resulting in a suitable punishment, and the prevention of re-offending. Thing is, an appropriate level of punishment to one person is not appropriate to the next. Prison rarely works, and there are so few police to catch the offender's in the first place, that they feel they can offend with impunity! It's a very difficult problem to tackle.

C: Wouldn't hurt if all scooters had an electronic (inductively-read) immobiliser chip embedded in the key like all modern cars, and some motorbike have. Granted if someone gets their scooter taken as they are riding it, this wouldn't help, but it might slow the use of bikes stolen whilst their owners are not around.
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Re: Motorcycle crime in England

Post by Maz » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:58 am

Sadanorakman wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:57 am
Maz wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:32 am

a) Is this type of crime prevalent outside the UK and, if so, what action would your Law Enforcement agencies take?
b) If you, or a close family member were one of the unfortunate victims of either the initial theft of the scooter, the mugging aspect or the injury caused by being hit by a scooter at 40+ mph while walking along the pavement (sidewalk), what action would you like to see taken?
c) What ideas do you have to reduce this crime?

Maz
A: I believe this type of crime was prevalent in Italy and France years ago... Scooter-borne handbag and jewelry snatching mainly. This was before the number of scooters exploded in the UK. Whether they still have issues with it now, I don't know. Hot-spots would be the tourist-rich environments.

B: Mostly, people want to see a process of justice resulting in a suitable punishment, and the prevention of re-offending. Thing is, an appropriate level of punishment to one person is not appropriate to the next. Prison rarely works, and there are so few police to catch the offender's in the first place, that they feel they can offend with impunity! It's a very difficult problem to tackle.

C: Wouldn't hurt if all scooters had an electronic (inductively-read) immobiliser chip embedded in the key like all modern cars, and some motorbike have. Granted if someone gets their scooter taken as they are riding it, this wouldn't help, but it might slow the use of bikes stolen whilst their owners are not around.
What we tend to find is that although most of the scooters that are being stolen have immobiliser chips in the ignition key, this is no deterrent to theft. Likewise a huge chain or two through the wheels will stop nothing. The gangs arrive in broad daylight on three or four other scooters (stolen and no licence plates) armed with hammers, knives, axes and battery angle grinders. One or two will attack the bike with the grinder whilst the others stand guard with the weapons to ward off any passers-by. The steering lock will be broken off and then one of the passengers will sit on the target scooter and be pushed along by one of the other scooters, by the rider using his foot against the 'dead' scooter. The dead scooter is then taken to a private garage/parking area so that the immobiliser can be over-ridden.
there are videos on Youtube showing these thefts in progress, including the threats to passers-by with the weapons.
My personal opinion is that these youths need stopping by whatever means possible, as long as it's carried out where no innocent party will be harmed.

There is one decent video on Youtube showing a scooter based mugging taking place, which was witnessed by some scaffolders in a truck. They jumped out of the truck and armed themselves with short lengths of scaffold tube before chasing down the offenders. This ultimately led to a number of arrests and prison sentences for the muggers.
Maz


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