totally off topic


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hugger-4641
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totally off topic

Post by hugger-4641 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:32 pm



Totally off topic, but I'm hoping somebody here is also a car nut like me and has some insight on my issue. I've checked all the car forums i can find and have found no answer yet.

I have this problem with my daughters '04 Celica GT. It's been in my shop for 3 months now and I am about ready to take it to the scrap yard ! In the last 3 months we have put new radiator, new thermostats, new water pump, and now a new heater core (which was a real P.I.T.A). I even tested both the old thermostats and the new one to see if any were defective and they all open at about 185 F. I still have the same problem. It will idle forever with no problems, radiator fans cycle on and off as they should, drive it down the road and will briefly overheat and then cool back down. No hot air from the heater no matter what. I have burped the system per Toyota's instruction, several times, and also tried my own "force feed" method of forcing coolant into the return hoses and heater core. There is no oil getting in the coolant, no coolant in the oil, not loosing any coolant, and no performance problem as far as power, starting, etc., so I'm not inclined to believe there is any problem with the head. I can feel hot coolant on input side of heater core, but it never seems to be exiting the heater core, that hose stays cold and no heat ever comes from the heater. The only part of the system I haven't had apart is the tubing from the heater core to the water pump. This appears to go under the fuel injection and intake, so it looks like I'm going to have to remove all that and see if there is a valve or a blockage of some kind. I guess I'm about to tackle that next, but any help or ideas are welcome and I thought I would give it a shot in the dark here to see if someone else might have run across something like this !



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Sadanorakman
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Re: totally off topic

Post by Sadanorakman » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:59 pm

I'd bet you a shiny silver dollar it's an air-lock.

https://www.newcelica.org/forums/showth ... p?t=361255

Seems like this car is a bear to bleed the air out.

I'm not being funny, but ignoring the heater matrix for a moment (to keep things simple). If the cooling radiator has no blockages (you say it's new), the thermostat opens appropriately, the water pump is spinning, and there are no air locks, then water should flow, and the car should not overheat... It's just not likely there's any blockage in the engine block/head as there are many paths for the water to flow in parallel.

it shouldn't really matter if water flows or not through the heater matrix, as it has limited diameter pipes, sufficient only to pass enough water for a kilowatt or two of heat to be bled off and into the passenger compartment. AS LONG as there is no air lock where the heater loop breaks in or out of the main coolent loop, which effects the flow there.

A water pump impeller spinning in mainly air ain't going to drive water anywhere!

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Re: totally off topic

Post by DenverWinger » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:56 pm

Get a new radiator cap.

My Toyota was doing the same thing, cap not holding pressure and it would put enough coolant in the overflow tank to start overheating, slow down some and it'd suck the coolant back into the radiator.

New cap fixed it.
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Re: totally off topic

Post by Aussie81Interstate » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:35 pm

My 2 cents worth would be a blocked heater core - so see if you can disconnect the input and output and try and flush it through. - do it both ways - and see if any crud comes out.

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Re: totally off topic

Post by tamathumper » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:13 pm

If that was a P-Car, I'd suspect the Heater Control Valve.

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Re: totally off topic

Post by bigsteveswing » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:12 pm

My boss has a Tacoma truck and he had been battling a supposed air bubble trapped in the system. He was told that some shops have been pulling a vacuum somehow on the system, much like you would do on an AC repair. How they are going about that is something I do not know. One shop told him, as strange as it sounds, to park the truck overnight on a steep incline nose up, theory was the bubble would work its way up with time...

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Re: totally off topic

Post by raven41951 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:44 pm

I have owned Toyotas since the 80s and haven't seen this one. It sounds like a blockage in or near the core. Since you have replaced the core I would look for the temperature control valve and make sure its clear. If a PO had used some type of stop leak it could be gummed up somewhere near the heater core. I can't help but think that that initial high heat you're experiencing has something to do with it. Almost like something is blocking, then releasing under heat and pressure then gelling again after cooling which leads me to a previous use of stop leak.

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Re: totally off topic

Post by DenverWinger » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:10 pm

He did state he replaced the heater core. Blocked or not, would not cause engine overheating in either case.

Most cars have a valve in one of the heater hoses, either vacuum operated or mechanically operated thru a cable. Supposed to shut off flow of coolant thru the heater core when you select "cold" on your heater control. My Camry has a cable operated valve, the Jeep has a vacuum operated valve, valve usually controlled by temperature lever. You can see them operate if someone works the controls.

But I've seen them go bad where the lever on the outside of the valve actuates, but the valve ball inside does not turn, and thus no coolant flow thru the heater core.

Have you checked your valve? You can try just bypassing it with some garden hose fittings to check.
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Re: totally off topic

Post by hugger-4641 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:57 pm

DenverWinger wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:10 pm
He did state he replaced the heater core. Blocked or not, would not cause engine overheating in either case.

Most cars have a valve in one of the heater hoses, either vacuum operated or mechanically operated thru a cable. Supposed to shut off flow of coolant thru the heater core when you select "cold" on your heater control. My Camry has a cable operated valve, the Jeep has a vacuum operated valve, valve usually controlled by temperature lever. You can see them operate if someone works the controls.

But I've seen them go bad where the lever on the outside of the valve actuates, but the valve ball inside does not turn, and thus no coolant flow thru the heater core.

Have you checked your valve? You can try just bypassing it with some garden hose fittings to check.
Thanks to everyone for the replies!
I have not replaced the reservoir cap yet, so I will definitely go ahead and do that, but it does build up plenty of pressure in the tank as I tested this once after the engine fans had cycled.

This heater core does not appear to have a valve, unless it is hidden somewhere in that circuit that I haven't tackled yet, which runs under the intake. The heater core and aluminum supply lines are all one piece and come strait thru the firewall. What I assume is the "input" side has a rubber hose that goes directly from the heater core to the thermostat housing, and this hose heats up as the engine temp does. The other side that I assume is the "return" line has a short piece of hose that connects from the heater core to a steel tubing . This steel tubing then runs under the intake and disappears. If there is a valve, it has to be somewhere in this line. So I guess that's where I'm headed after I try replacing the cap.

Thanks again for all the replies, I was hoping maybe I was just missing something simple, but this one has sure been a doosy.

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Re: totally off topic

Post by 97Aspy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:32 pm

Stumbled across this post where they pulled the car on ramps and then followed the bleeding procedure. Worth a shot.

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/17-c ... licas.html

Good luck

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Re: totally off topic

Post by raven41951 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:58 pm

I just read the procedure mentioned above. What a simple, easy fix. All I can says is: Well I'll be dipped.....

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Re: totally off topic

Post by hugger-4641 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:46 am

I've tried this every time I've drained and refilled the system, about 5 times now, twice when I replaced thermostats, once after water pump replaced, once after radiator replaced, and once after heater core replaced, still hasn't fixed my problem, so I must have something else going on.

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Re: totally off topic

Post by DenverWinger » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:17 pm

Have you tried disconnecting heater hoses from the engine and putting a garden hose to one of the heater hoses? Water from the garden hose should come out the other heater hose....
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Re: totally off topic

Post by WingAdmin » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:27 pm

DenverWinger wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:17 pm
Have you tried disconnecting heater hoses from the engine and putting a garden hose to one of the heater hoses? Water from the garden hose should come out the other heater hose....
Unless it's blocked, in which case you will blow out hoses and/or seals, or rupture a radiator.

Your cooling system is designed to run at around 4 to 7 psi.

Typical residential water pressure is between 45 and 80 psi.

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Re: totally off topic

Post by DenverWinger » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:41 pm

Oh, no, I wasn't even suggesting making a hard connection to household pressure, just pointing the end of the garden hose into the heater hose and hold them together by hand.

Good that you warned against a hard connection, though! :)
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
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♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

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Re: totally off topic

Post by hugger-4641 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:55 am

I actually did rig up a flush system to force coolant thru the heater core. I rigged fittings into a 2 gallon jug so I could force compressed air in the top and coolant out the bottom into the heater core, and captured the coolant leaving the core and repeated the process twice. I did put a second regulator in the air supply to limit pressure somewhere around 10psi.

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Re: totally off topic

Post by topgun » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:56 pm

At this point you're fighting either
A. A very stubborn air lock
B. A cylinder head or head gasket issue

A > Find someone with or use an air tool that applies vacuum to the system repeatedly
B > Try a combustion gas analysis kit on radiator OR apply compressed air to each cylinder, on TDC, and watch for level to change

It's possible to have compression getting into coolant without coolant and oil exchange

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Re: totally off topic

Post by thebruce » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:26 pm

Head gasket. I have a car that does exactly the same thing.
topgun wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:56 pm

It's possible to have compression getting into coolant without coolant and oil exchange
Nailed it.
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Re: totally off topic

Post by hugger-4641 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:16 am

thebruce wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:26 pm
Head gasket. I have a car that does exactly the same thing.
topgun wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:56 pm

It's possible to have compression getting into coolant without coolant and oil exchange
Nailed it.
Well, first time for everything I guess. I've never seen a head gasket fail that didn't exhibit some mixing of oil/coolant somewhere or some loss of compression. If I don't find anything in this return tube system, I guess I'm pulling the head. I'm already gonna have the intake and all the other goodies pulled off anyway. Thanks for the replies!

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Re: totally off topic

Post by bigsteveswing » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:06 am

I had a 4.6L F-150 that leaked hot exhaust gas into the coolant system from a bad head gasket, I could be driving down the road everything normal, all at once temp gauge would soar, truck would go into limp home mode and the heat would immediately go cold. Stop and open the pressure cap and it would vent a bunch of hot gas then return to normal. I guess that hot air bubble would hit the pump and nothing moved, remove the air and it went back to normal. Never lost coolant, mixed oil, no real symptoms otherwise...

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Re: totally off topic

Post by hugger-4641 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:04 am

Thanks for all the replies folks. Haven't got it back together yet , but have confirmed that there is no valve and no obstruction in the return circuit to the water pump, and the head gasket does appear to be leaking between #1 and #2 cyl. Diagnostic tool was showing a miss fire on #2 that was not evident to the naked ear. Pulled the coil packs and #2 plug was submerged in clean oil. Design of the valve cover pretty much assures that this is coming from head gasket. So, my daughter and her boyfriend are now going to pull the head, under my supervision of course. On this engine it's almost better to pull the engine to remove the head. But it can be done in the car if you remove front motor mount and transmission mount and raise the front of the engine high enough to allow removal of the timing gear components. This of course is after you remove the intake, fuel injection, exhaust, and all the other goodies that are in the way. Should be fun getting to watch them crawl under, over, and inside this thing instead of me doing it. 8-)
Thanks again for the replies!



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