Distinguished Attire


Anything goes - doesn't fit any other category!
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robb
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by robb »



brettchallenger wrote:I don't think half helmets are very safe -
Half helmet is safer than none and they carry the same DOT rating. Way too much heat inside a full helmet. Next thing we know it will be a requirement to wear underwear to ride. Last summer the wife made me start riding with no backrest, left a cobra head white spot on my back.



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seelyark1
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by seelyark1 »

Just for something to think about, go to your nearest paved road, run down it and then dive onto it. Then think about it as being 30, 40, 50 MPH. I'll keep my gear on. I got a few scratches and some damaged gear.
Ride safe, and smart. Asphalt is like #1 grit sandpaper. Dave

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brettchallenger
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by brettchallenger »

brettchallenger wrote:I don't think half helmets are very safe -
Sorry, my comment was meant as a joke, albeit a bad one.
“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”

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seabeechief
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by seabeechief »

robb wrote:
brettchallenger wrote:I don't think half helmets are very safe -
Half helmet is safer than none and they carry the same DOT rating. Way too much heat inside a full helmet. Next thing we know it will be a requirement to wear underwear to ride. Last summer the wife made me start riding with no backrest, left a cobra head white spot on my back.

What? We have to wear underwear?

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yamaha96
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by yamaha96 »

I normally wear my Field Sheer jacket, and either jeans and chaps, or i have armored Field Sheer riding pants also, Harley boots , depending on the weather full leather gloves or no finger gloves , i like to wear full face helmets , either Shoei or HJC , Your Va. friend ,Mike.

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garwil
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by garwil »

ATGATT - All the Gear all the Time!!

Full face helmet
Textile Jacket with elbow, back, shoulder padding.
Textile Pants with Knee, hip padding.
Riding Boots
Riding Gloves

I might, every few months, ride down to the nearest store with only a helmet and street clothes, but very rarely.
I have watched to many friends recover from road rash, and many other walk away with minor or no injury simply because of the gear they wear.

I have never dumped a bike at speed, but its not my fault. :lol:
When I finally do it, I intend to be as prepared as possible.
In the mean time, my gear helps me be comfortable, and I don't live in fear of the dreaded June Bug at highway speeds.

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msteinbrink
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by msteinbrink »

I like to define myself as a "motorcycle rider" rather than a biker so I wear a textile tourmaster jacket with zip out liner for the most part. I always wear boots, gloves and jeans and I do have good rain gear as I ride almost year round here in the Pacific NW. However, I do spaz out my nurses when it gets over 75 and go with the tank top option...gotta get the sun while I can.... lol and sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do.........

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DJnRF
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by DJnRF »

Back when I started riding there were mostly Harleys on
the road, and darn few compared to today. As the gangs
were started after WW2 with so many Harleys available
from the military, leathers got their firm grip with those
riders. I was no different then. My leathers consisted of
a heavy police motorcycle jacket, and a pair of military
Sherpa lined leather flight pants. I also wore a pair of
WW2 combat boots. Today is much different for me.

These days I use my leather jacket with a heavy zip out
liner for cold weather wear. I take the liner out as the
temperatures increase to mid-sixties. When those rise
to upper seventies and above I usually switch to a Levi
jacket. I mostly wear jeans and boots. My boots are
two different military ones for different weather conditions,
a pair of ranch Wellingtons, and a pair of lineman safety
boots. Which I wear is dependent upon what I am doing
that day. There are some times that I do wear my low
quarters, but that is mostly when I am responding to a
fire or ambulance call where I am going to have to change
into my fire gear as soon as I get to the station. The
Wellingtons come off fast enough, but don't go on as fast
as the shoes, so it does depend upon timing in getting
out the door to run on the call. I do have the blue lights
on front and rear of my machine, and usually run 80 to
85 mph on such a run.

I do use my neoprene coated nylon rain gear many times
in cold weather as well as in rain. If gear stops all wind it
also stops much of the cold. I seldom use my Goretex gear
as it isn't as heavy as the neoprene gear. But, if it is really
hot the Goretex breathes better.

I wear my police half-helmet most of the time. It is the
only way I can hear the two-way radio anyway. I liked it
much better when I had a Motorola Power Voice speaker
on my machine as that was really a very loud speaker. I am
considering taking one of the old Motorola speakers and
building up the circuit to make another Power Voice one.
It was almost as loud as my 100 watt siren speaker.

My good fortune has been that in all my riding years (now
58 years) I have never been down, or in any kind of crash.
The only times I have even dropped my machines over the
years was when stopped, or almost stopped. Even then it
was never on my Harleys. I never dropped any of the Honda
motorcycles until I got my Interstate. (anyone know of a
good way to get me taller?)

At today's gas prices (I remember the years of prices at
18.9 per gallon) I try not to drive my truck that only gets
10 mpg (city and highway), or my car at 17 to 28 while my
motorcycle is getting 45 city, and 60 highway. My SS
income isn't good for the luxury of driving the others.

I have investigated many crashes involving a motorcycle,
and every time I found that the rider had done something
he should not have done. Most times it was just a mere
failure to recognize a hazard soon enough. Complete
awareness all the time while riding is the key, and many
times we are just not aware of what we are really doing,
but just what we think we are doing.

Unfortunately, for me, I am at an age now where I am
finding that I am not as aware as I should be, or used to
be. I am constantly trying to alert myself to the awareness
I should use. At times, my mind is not exactly where it
should be.

Doctors found a new disease in me. Actually, they think it
has been around for a very long time, but I am the first
where they realized it as a disease and gave it a name.
It is called the A.S.S. Syndrome.
(Alzheimer's, Senility, Stupidity.)
I sure hope they find a cure.
"Survival is one's own ability to cope with and overcome any adverse or threatening situation, condition, casualty or event." ©Dj 1969

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garwil
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by garwil »

I think I have a similar condition. Its called O.F.F. (opinionated, flagrant, fat head). ;-)

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DJnRF
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And, many others since I started riding. Started on a Harley in 1956.

Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by DJnRF »

garwil wrote:I think I have a similar condition. Its called O.F.F. (opinionated, flagrant, fat head). ;-)
Gee. Maybe they can find a cure for yours too. lol
"Survival is one's own ability to cope with and overcome any adverse or threatening situation, condition, casualty or event." ©Dj 1969

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Fatwing Chris
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by Fatwing Chris »

seelyark1 wrote:Just for something to think about, go to your nearest paved road, run down it and then dive onto it. Then think about it as being 30, 40, 50 MPH. I'll keep my gear on. I got a few scratches and some damaged gear.
Like I said I've already been down(not my fault)and I'd sooner be comfortable and take my chances.
If I'da known it would last this long,I'da taken better care of it.
Chris
Double Dark
Darkside # 1602

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DJnRF
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And, many others since I started riding. Started on a Harley in 1956.

Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by DJnRF »

I must admit that I have been known to ride while wearing a suit,
tie and shined dress shoes. Of course, this was when I was appearing
in court. Since I never attend any 'formals' I have never worn a
tuxedo while riding. I doubt very much that will ever happen.
"Survival is one's own ability to cope with and overcome any adverse or threatening situation, condition, casualty or event." ©Dj 1969

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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by HawkeyeGL1200 »

I don't own any riding clothes with unpaid advertisements on them. In cold weather, I have a "long" mesh coat with an insulated (zip out) liner that I wear over a matching set of insulated riding pants. Both resist water quite well. When it gets really cold out, and I ride as long as it isn't snowing or ice and snow on the road surface, I usually wear a wool sweater and maybe insulated long underwear down to the low 20's (F)... Insulated, gore-tex lined leather boots... and insulated gauntlets that go about half way up my forearm... full face helmet with a balaclava under it for when it's severely cold.. I forgot to mention my coat and pants have "armor" in them.

In warmer months, I wear an armored jacket, made of ballistic nylon and kevlar lined leather gloves, leather boots, full face helmet and blue jeans. I'm still looking for the "perfect" hot weather jacket. I rode home today, and got caught in a thunderstorm for about 12 miles... it felt pretty good to get rained on while riding in the 95 degree heat. I barely got wet.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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brenniac
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by brenniac »

I dress for protection, comfort and style in that order.


'06 Gold

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DJnRF
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And, many others since I started riding. Started on a Harley in 1956.

Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by DJnRF »

Over the years I have investigated many motorcycle accidents. In every
case I have found several things. First off, all involved mistakes made
by the rider that led to the accident. That even included accidents where
the cycle was struck from behind while stopped at an intersection traffic
light.

Next was the speed of the motorcycle. Many were just too fast for the area,
or circumstance: ie; Too fast for conditions. (Whether those conditions were
of weather, traffic, roadway, sun, night, motorcycle condition, etc.)

Whereas, road rash is not a fun thing, it is never, in, and of itself, a life
threatening issue. It is just that one of the above situations were the cause
of that ultimate end. Most road rash injuries are caused by not wearing a
sufficient attire to prevent. However, heavy leather, armored, or highly
insulated clothing is not needed to prevent such injury. A good, heavy denim
is sufficient for that, although, not so good for the clothing. It is just enough
to prevent any serious road rash issue. LIght weight cotton, poly, or nylon
does nothing to prevent any injury. GoreTex weave, or Kevlar (aramid fiber)
material also will do the job of protection, however, the cost for those items
is very high. (Military surplus of such materials can be found for much less.)

Keep in mind that no apparel protection can ever prevent death, or serious
injury where speed is involved. That is from speed of the motorcycle (such
speed being typically from 40 mph and above), or speed of the body thrown
from the machine to impact some hard, or sharp, penetrating surface. Any
protection from those issues must come from an impact balloon alone. As
far as I know, these things have only been used to 'bounce land' our planetary
landers used in space exploration. None have ever been installed into our
clothing for motorcycles.

Broken bones can still happen by even a padded impact. Even a ballistic vest
used by military, and police that will stop a bullet will still cause serious
injury and/ or death due to what is known as "blunt force trauma". The
padding of the Kevlar does not prevent deformation of the material enough
to prevent harm to the body. A bullet fired from a distance is more of a
danger than one fired against the Kevlar. Penetration of the Kevlar is greater
when the velocity has increased sufficiently away from the muzzle. Any
penetration of the body at and above 2 inches is sufficient to cause serious
harm/ injury, or death even though it never breaks the skin. Therefore, the
speed of the object (body in this case) is the real culprit. In a crash (accident)
of any kind on a motorcycle the body is catapulted from the machine at a
greater speed than that of the motorcycle itself. (Think of it like a machine-gun
bullet fired from a jet plane. The plane is going at 500 mph, and so is the bullet
until the bullet is fired, at which time it is going at the speed of the bullet being
fired, PLUS that 500 + mph for some distance.)

If you are riding at 45 mph, and are launched from your machine you are
traveling at a speed of over 50 mph until your body impact onto something.
How fast over 50 mph all depends upon several factors such as your weight,
build, direction and angle of your 'flight', and any added impact to your
machine that helped with your 'launch'.

No amount of 'padding' is going to prevent the blunt force trauma to your
body. Only the object, or surface you will impact can reduce or eliminate
this.

Last month I was involved with a motorcycle accident in which a gal had
lost control of her machine on a curve. She was riding with two other
guy friends. They were riding in no hurry. Her speed was within the posted
limit for that road, and curve, but she had 'drifted' too far to the outside
of the curve while communicating with one of the others. This caused her
to leave the road surface, which was 3 inches above that of the road shoulder.
That sharp of a drop-off caused her machine to swerve more to the right.
The ditch began about two feet from the road shoulder, and dropped off
another foot in depth. The slope down and again up to the yard of a farmhouse
was steep enough to launch her slightly into the air. She landed on the lawn fine,
but in still moving about 30+ mph encountered another slight incline at the
driveway. This was high enough to cause her to 'launch' her into the air again.
This time was much higher than from the ditch. She went airborne about ten
feet up, and for a distance of about sixty feet. She came down on the front wheel
in a plowed farm field. The ground was soft enough that the motorcycle stopped
as soon as the front wheel impacted the soft dirt, and the real wheel merely
dropped onto the ground. The motorcycle did not move any further forward. In
the process of her body being launched from the impact her jacket (not buttoned
closed) caught on her handlebars and turned them to the left. That insured that
the motorcycle was a good launch for her body, and helped to insure that the
motorcycle had no further forward movement. The motorcycle remained in an
upright position, while her body was thrown another eight feet to the left front
of her machine. Besides some bruises and being shaken, she was in good shape.
She was transported to the hospital to be checked more fully, but she was fine.
She was saved from serious injury by the soft dirt of that plowed field. Her
motorcycle had only a broken mirror, and turn signal on the left front, plus a bent
axle.

How do you imagine she would have been had she struck a hard surface, or
a tree? The padding of the soft earth was more than enough to prevent any
serious injury. No amount of 'padding' of the body could save her had she
struck a hard surface at a speed of about 35/ 40 mph. She would have had
serious injury, and quite possibly a broken neck, or back. (These latter types
of injuries are always due to the fact that no helmets are designed to
protect the neck or back. Full face helmets merely add some wind and
weather protection for rider comfort. I have never heard, or seen any fatal
injury of a person due to jaw injury caused while wearing a half or three
quarter helmet.)

So, keep all this in mind when spending a small fortune on your protective
clothing. Those things almost never protect one from serious injury or
death in motorcycling accidents. Rider mistakes, and speed are the direct
cause of such injuries and deaths. (The most serious mistake any rider can
make is having even one drink of an alcoholic beverage before riding. One
such drink even impairs the abilities of even the most avid drinker.)
"Survival is one's own ability to cope with and overcome any adverse or threatening situation, condition, casualty or event." ©Dj 1969

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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by WingAdmin »

I agree with most of what you've written here. However, there are a few things I have to disagree with, a couple of which involve basic physics.
DJnRF wrote:However, heavy leather, armored, or highly
insulated clothing is not needed to prevent such injury. A good, heavy denim
is sufficient for that, although, not so good for the clothing. It is just enough
to prevent any serious road rash issue.
I wholly disagree. It is well known that denim jeans of any weight offer little to no protection against road rash. They wear through very quickly, exposing the skin inside. I know this from direct personal experience, and from the experience of others who have been through the same thing. Wearing jeans as protective gear is about the same as wearing no protective gear at all.
DJnRF wrote:Keep in mind that no apparel protection can ever prevent death, or serious
injury where speed is involved. That is from speed of the motorcycle (such
speed being typically from 40 mph and above), or speed of the body thrown
from the machine to impact some hard, or sharp, penetrating surface. Any
protection from those issues must come from an impact balloon alone. As
far as I know, these things have only been used to 'bounce land' our planetary
landers used in space exploration. None have ever been installed into our
clothing for motorcycles.
Actually they have. There are quite a few manufacturers of motorcycle jackets with built-in airbags. They are definitely not cheap, but they do exist:

http://www.bikebone.com/Air-Vest-Motorc ... it-Air.htm

http://www.dainese.com/us_en/d-air/#time_7



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DJnRF wrote:Broken bones can still happen by even a padded impact. Even a ballistic vest
used by military, and police that will stop a bullet will still cause serious
injury and/ or death due to what is known as "blunt force trauma". The
padding of the Kevlar does not prevent deformation of the material enough
to prevent harm to the body. A bullet fired from a distance is more of a
danger than one fired against the Kevlar. Penetration of the Kevlar is greater
when the velocity has increased sufficiently away from the muzzle.
Once a bullet exits the muzzle of a gun, the motive force driving it (the massive pressure behind it in the barrel) is gone, therefore the bullet stops accelerating, and begins decelerating due to massive amounts of wind resistance (drag) (drag is a square of velocity, so at high velocities, drag is immense). This is why, when measuring the velocity of bullets, the chronograph is placed only a few inches from the muzzle of the gun, as this is the highest velocity the bullet will be travelling. No object can continue to accelerate unless there is a force acting upon it.
DJnRF wrote:In a crash (accident)
of any kind on a motorcycle the body is catapulted from the machine at a
greater speed than that of the motorcycle itself. (Think of it like a machine-gun
bullet fired from a jet plane. The plane is going at 500 mph, and so is the bullet
until the bullet is fired, at which time it is going at the speed of the bullet being
fired, PLUS that 500 + mph for some distance.)

If you are riding at 45 mph, and are launched from your machine you are
traveling at a speed of over 50 mph until your body impact onto something.
How fast over 50 mph all depends upon several factors such as your weight,
build, direction and angle of your 'flight', and any added impact to your
machine that helped with your 'launch'.
Again, not physically possible. This is not a valid comparison. A plane travelling at 500 mph then fires a bullet. The bullet accelerates within the barrel, and emerges at the muzzle of the barrel travelling at the sum of the airplane's velocity plus the velocity which it has accelerated within the barrel.

On a motorcycle, unless it is equipped with some sort of ejection seat, the rider will never fall off at a higher velocity than the bike/rider was already travelling. The rider and bike are travelling at 45 mph. A crash occurs, meaning the bike hits something. The kinetic energy stored in the bike (as momentum) is absorbed by the bike and by whatever it hits (transforming primarily into heat). As a result, the bike decelerates extremely quickly. The rider, not being fastened to the bike, continues to travel at 45 mph, and flies off the bike. He does not accelerate, because there is no force being applied to him to accelerate him, so he travels through the air beginning at 45 mph, but decelerating due to wind resistance (drag). There's no way he can be sitting on a bike travelling at 45 mph, crash into something, then somehow magically be accelerated through the air to over 50 mph.
DJnRF wrote:Full face helmets merely add some wind and
weather protection for rider comfort. I have never heard, or seen any fatal
injury of a person due to jaw injury caused while wearing a half or three
quarter helmet.)
A full face helmet will definitely not keep you from a fatal injury to the jaw...but it will sure make your life a whole lot better if you DO live, because you will be able to do things like chew and talk.
DJnRF wrote:So, keep all this in mind when spending a small fortune on your protective
clothing. Those things almost never protect one from serious injury or
death in motorcycling accidents. Rider mistakes, and speed are the direct
cause of such injuries and deaths. (The most serious mistake any rider can
make is having even one drink of an alcoholic beverage before riding. One
such drink even impairs the abilities of even the most avid drinker.)
Totally agree. Protective clothing is primarily for abrasion protection and low-velocity impact injuries to joints, back and and extremities (where the protective armor exists), primarily while tumbling down the road. There is no armor that will protect you from a high velocity blunt impact injury - the best we can do is to stay alert as possible, watch for others, and not drink while riding (alcohol is involved in a vast majority of fatal motorcycle accidents where I live).

You basically want to do anything you can to absorb impacts over as long a time as possible - the woman hitting a soft, plowed field is a perfect example. Her initial impact and deceleration into the field may have taken 100ms - but that's a far cry from the 10ms (or less) that she would encounter hitting a tree or other hard object. This is the same reason car airbags have huge holes in them: It inflates, your face hits it, and the holes allow the gas to escape as you plow into it. This escaping gas allows the impact and deceleration to take as long a time as possible (even though it's still over in the blink of an eye) which reduces the overall G's transmitted to your body. Same reason cars crumple up at the ends - it absorbs energy and lengthens the amount of time it takes for the car to decelerate.

In the old days, when cars did not have crumple zones, the full force of the impact was transmitted directly into the frame. The (typically unbelted) driver continued forward at the original velocity until he hit the dash or windshield, where he was decelerated almost instantly. This made a fatal crash 60 years ago easily survivable by today's standards in today's cars.

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HawkeyeGL1200
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1981 GL1100 Interstate

Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by HawkeyeGL1200 »

DJnRF wrote: Penetration of the Kevlar is greater when the velocity has increased sufficiently away from the muzzle.
"Warning: Off Topic"
I don't mean to pick nits, but a projectile (bullet) fired from a rifle or handgun begins to lose velocity as soon as it clears the muzzle of the barrel. The propellent, being burnt inside the chamber and barrle of the firearm is the only force acting to accellerate the projectile, once the bullet clears the end of the barrel, the rapidly expanding gasses have no further effect on the bullet. They do make a big noise... but add no speed increase beyond the end of the barrel...

I loved the rest of your post. Fortunately (for me) I have not investigated any motorcycle accidents, and I would prefer to leave that to experts because even reading baout them makes me very sad. I expect that if it were necessary for me to see them first-hand, I may start drinking bourbon again...

Thank you kindly for your very insightful post.
I am wrong as often as I am right concerning what is wrong with someone else' motorcycle without having seen the machine in person. Guessing with limited information, as to the source of the trouble, is sketchy at best.

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Mh434
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by Mh434 »

I, too, have investigated many motorcycle crashes (I was a collision analyst & reconstructionist for 15 years) and, unfortunately, have been in a couple myself. I always ride with protective gear (used to be leather, now it's armored textiles) plus a modular or full-face helmet the majority of the time (the exception is when I'm riding with my wife on the back, and I'm waiting on the arrival of my new headset for my modular helmet, whereupon I'll be back to that one when doubled up).

Each of us has to make our own decisions in life. After what I've seen, and felt, I choose to wear the maximum protective gear I can use in the prevailing weather conditions. While road rash may not be fatal, it can be debilitating & take months to recover from. The pain is much like a bad burn (feature nothing but raw meat left - all the skin is gone entirely - looks like a freshly cut steak). NOT something to sneer at!

As far as helmets are concerned, with the exception of the Harley beanie (the ones that have a sticker inside saying "For novelty use only - not for use as a safety helmet"), whatever helmet you wear will protect you infinitely better than the one you've left at home. I, personally, have investigated motorcycle deaths from crashes at speeds of 30 mph, as a result of inadequate helmet usage. It's not pleasant - photographing the autopsy, informing the deceased's family, detailing the injuries, etc.

As far as style is concerned, I've just ordered (as in, this morning!) a Joe Rocket Skyline 2.0 mesh "Goldwing Edition" jacket. I've had Joe Rocket stuff before & like it a lot (it was issued equipment for my police department motorcycle officers, me included). My previous JR jacket was pretty much destroyed in a crash (I was hit by a large buck), but the jacket did its job. Likewise, the modular carbon-fiber/kevlar helmet I was wearing at the time - destroyed, but my head stayed in one piece.

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robb
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by robb »

brettchallenger wrote:
brettchallenger wrote:I don't think half helmets are very safe -
Sorry, my comment was meant as a joke, albeit a bad one.
No problem here, I can take a joke and throw my own at same time. Not joking about underwear. After 4 strokes I do whatever is needed to keep body temp comfortable and that mean as little as possible. I do meet my only real requirement, pray up before mount up. It has never let me down.

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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:50 pm
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Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100i Interstate
And, many others since I started riding. Started on a Harley in 1956.

Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by DJnRF »

WingAdmin wrote:I agree with most of what you've written here. However, there are a few things I have to disagree with, a couple of which involve basic physics.
DJnRF wrote:However, heavy leather, armored, or highly
insulated clothing is not needed to prevent such injury. A good, heavy denim
is sufficient for that, although, not so good for the clothing. It is just enough
to prevent any serious road rash issue.
I wholly disagree. It is well known that denim jeans of any weight offer little to no protection against road rash. They wear through very quickly, exposing the skin inside. I know this from direct personal experience, and from the experience of others who have been through the same thing. Wearing jeans as protective gear is about the same as wearing no protective gear at all.
DJnRF wrote:Keep in mind that no apparel protection can ever prevent death, or serious
injury where speed is involved. That is from speed of the motorcycle (such
speed being typically from 40 mph and above), or speed of the body thrown
from the machine to impact some hard, or sharp, penetrating surface. Any
protection from those issues must come from an impact balloon alone. As
far as I know, these things have only been used to 'bounce land' our planetary
landers used in space exploration. None have ever been installed into our
clothing for motorcycles.
Actually they have. There are quite a few manufacturers of motorcycle jackets with built-in airbags. They are definitely not cheap, but they do exist:

http://www.bikebone.com/Air-Vest-Motorc ... it-Air.htm

http://www.dainese.com/us_en/d-air/#time_7



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DJnRF wrote:Broken bones can still happen by even a padded impact. Even a ballistic vest
used by military, and police that will stop a bullet will still cause serious
injury and/ or death due to what is known as "blunt force trauma". The
padding of the Kevlar does not prevent deformation of the material enough
to prevent harm to the body. A bullet fired from a distance is more of a
danger than one fired against the Kevlar. Penetration of the Kevlar is greater
when the velocity has increased sufficiently away from the muzzle.
Once a bullet exits the muzzle of a gun, the motive force driving it (the massive pressure behind it in the barrel) is gone, therefore the bullet stops accelerating, and begins decelerating due to massive amounts of wind resistance (drag) (drag is a square of velocity, so at high velocities, drag is immense). This is why, when measuring the velocity of bullets, the chronograph is placed only a few inches from the muzzle of the gun, as this is the highest velocity the bullet will be travelling. No object can continue to accelerate unless there is a force acting upon it.
DJnRF wrote:In a crash (accident)
of any kind on a motorcycle the body is catapulted from the machine at a
greater speed than that of the motorcycle itself. (Think of it like a machine-gun
bullet fired from a jet plane. The plane is going at 500 mph, and so is the bullet
until the bullet is fired, at which time it is going at the speed of the bullet being
fired, PLUS that 500 + mph for some distance.)

If you are riding at 45 mph, and are launched from your machine you are
traveling at a speed of over 50 mph until your body impact onto something.
How fast over 50 mph all depends upon several factors such as your weight,
build, direction and angle of your 'flight', and any added impact to your
machine that helped with your 'launch'.
Again, not physically possible. This is not a valid comparison. A plane travelling at 500 mph then fires a bullet. The bullet accelerates within the barrel, and emerges at the muzzle of the barrel travelling at the sum of the airplane's velocity plus the velocity which it has accelerated within the barrel.

On a motorcycle, unless it is equipped with some sort of ejection seat, the rider will never fall off at a higher velocity than the bike/rider was already travelling. The rider and bike are travelling at 45 mph. A crash occurs, meaning the bike hits something. The kinetic energy stored in the bike (as momentum) is absorbed by the bike and by whatever it hits (transforming primarily into heat). As a result, the bike decelerates extremely quickly. The rider, not being fastened to the bike, continues to travel at 45 mph, and flies off the bike. He does not accelerate, because there is no force being applied to him to accelerate him, so he travels through the air beginning at 45 mph, but decelerating due to wind resistance (drag). There's no way he can be sitting on a bike travelling at 45 mph, crash into something, then somehow magically be accelerated through the air to over 50 mph.
DJnRF wrote:Full face helmets merely add some wind and
weather protection for rider comfort. I have never heard, or seen any fatal
injury of a person due to jaw injury caused while wearing a half or three
quarter helmet.)
A full face helmet will definitely not keep you from a fatal injury to the jaw...but it will sure make your life a whole lot better if you DO live, because you will be able to do things like chew and talk.
DJnRF wrote:So, keep all this in mind when spending a small fortune on your protective
clothing. Those things almost never protect one from serious injury or
death in motorcycling accidents. Rider mistakes, and speed are the direct
cause of such injuries and deaths. (The most serious mistake any rider can
make is having even one drink of an alcoholic beverage before riding. One
such drink even impairs the abilities of even the most avid drinker.)
Totally agree. Protective clothing is primarily for abrasion protection and low-velocity impact injuries to joints, back and and extremities (where the protective armor exists), primarily while tumbling down the road. There is no armor that will protect you from a high velocity blunt impact injury - the best we can do is to stay alert as possible, watch for others, and not drink while riding (alcohol is involved in a vast majority of fatal motorcycle accidents where I live).

You basically want to do anything you can to absorb impacts over as long a time as possible - the woman hitting a soft, plowed field is a perfect example. Her initial impact and deceleration into the field may have taken 100ms - but that's a far cry from the 10ms (or less) that she would encounter hitting a tree or other hard object. This is the same reason car airbags have huge holes in them: It inflates, your face hits it, and the holes allow the gas to escape as you plow into it. This escaping gas allows the impact and deceleration to take as long a time as possible (even though it's still over in the blink of an eye) which reduces the overall G's transmitted to your body. Same reason cars crumple up at the ends - it absorbs energy and lengthens the amount of time it takes for the car to decelerate.

In the old days, when cars did not have crumple zones, the full force of the impact was transmitted directly into the frame. The (typically unbelted) driver continued forward at the original velocity until he hit the dash or windshield, where he was decelerated almost instantly. This made a fatal crash 60 years ago easily survivable by today's standards in today's cars.


Sorry it took so long to get back on this. My Internet here is terrible, and my
number of calls increased to several each day since I last was on here. (Also,
my 3 mile ride turns out to be exactly 4 miles from my machine parked at
my door to the door of the fire station.)

Now, I guess I should have made bold, italicized the words in your first quoted
statement of mine.
"A good, heavy denim is sufficient for that, although, not so
good for the clothing. It is just enough to prevent any serious
road rash issue."

Unfortunately, that 'good, heavy denim' is NOT what one finds in stores today.
It is only a special order item from only the Levi Strauss Co. It seems that all of
the denim manufacturers have cut the weight, and stitches per inch of their
retail products. The actual heavy weight denim was discontinued as a retail
product in the interest of more profits. I have not seen it in stores for quite
a few years now, but as a former dealer of protective clothing, I do keep up
on what is available for special order. I just didn't get into that info in my
post as most wouldn't consider that aspect anyway.

As for the inflatable items you provided links on, I had been aware that
research was being done by several companies on making these products,
but wasn't aware that any were yet being marketed. Unfortunately, I do
find some problems with those products. First, to me, there is not really
enough inflatable in the outfits, and there are no pants with the feature.
Common injury to the femur can cause a life threatening problem by a
severed femoral artery. A person can bleed out into the abdomen in only
a few minutes. Only a response by an advanced care ambulance might
have the chance to save the life of such a person with that injury, and
only then if they can get there, and identify the problem in the first few
minutes. Next is the amount of neck protection. Whereas, the device
does provide inflated protection, it does not prevent the type of injury
that is so common with deaths. That is the angled, and forward motion
of the head in many crashes. Use of a HANS device which quite simply
prevents the head from flexing forward during the deceleration that
comes with a forward crash deceleration. It doesn’t take a huge impact
to cause a lethal basilar skull injury; it is the angle of the hit and the lack
of support given to the neck that is responsible for Earnhardt’s death in 2001.
Those devices were available at the time, and Earnhardt had considered it,
but decided that since it did limit some movement, he would not wear it
that day. (It is now mandatory to be worn by professional race drivers.)

The final issue I have with these products is that no 'average' motorcyclist
would spend so much on these. Only those with loads of money, or are
very intent on cross country rides often, and who have the money to
spend will purchase these. Only very seldom will the average rider around
town ever consider spending this much. If a local survey of riders is done
I would expect most 'around town' riders to like the idea, but state that
since they only ride around the area they can't see spending that much
as it isn't needed. This is the type of answer I have gotten so far from
riders around here. I had even talked with one rider who rides all year
round for everything. He has a truck, but seldom drives it, even in
winter. He says he rides an average of 35k miles per year. Some of his
rides are of 50 to 100 miles. Even his ride to work is 32 miles.

Unless the price comes down dramatically on many of the products
being sold, I seriously doubt that many riders will ever purchase any of
these products. Even though statistics show that most fatal accidents
occur within six miles of the home, very seldom are any protective
clothings worn by most riders with their rides to a store for things,
or just joy riding around town. One only has to sit by a heavy traffic
highway close to any city and note the number of cyclists wearing
such clothing.

Even knowing all of this, and also being a member of the National
Assn. of Clothing Manufacturers where I have access to all the info
on such new clothing products, I seldom wear as much as should
be worn for every ride. My leathers are too hot in the 90 degree
days, so my heavy denim is good, but I also have something eise
to wear. I have a Cool Shirt and body armor. The shirt allows
air to circulate around the body under the armor, and the Kevlar
does protect from blunt force trauma to vital organs. Kevlar will
not stop sharp penetration, but it can reduce object impact. If
the impact isn't more than that of one from the caliber bullet it
is meant to protect it will do its job. Deformation of the vest
would then not be more than 2 inches, which the body can
handle without damage to vital organs.

That is about all I wear in the hot weather these days. Although, on
calls, I don't worry about any special clothing as the speeds I attain
then would not allow for my survival if I did have a crash. My rides
then on an open highway where I attain 80+ mph just are not good for
much of a survival chance in a crash even with protective gear.
It is 3.5 miles of high speeds at those times. Do the math. Four
miles total from the time of call, getting on clothing, to the
machine, starting and taking off to make it to the station in
four minutes means very high speeds. Of late, my average speed
has been around 75 mph, only due to the slow area by home with
turns and gravel.

As for the speed of a body with relation to that of a bullet fired
from a jet, it all depends upon the body actually being launched,
and not merely falling from the machine when it goes down. A
prime example here is when I was hit by a car in a parking lot.
My machine was not moving at all, but as I was trying to get
clear the car flipped my machine in such a manner as to throw
me off. I landed on my feet exactly ten feet from my machine.
In effect, I was launched.

This same type of 'launching' can occur at any time that the
motorcycle stops suddenly, such as impacting a barricade. In
that case the cycle will flip up and throw the rider off in
addition to the fact that the rider would fall forward off his
machine at the speed of the machine just prior to it striking
the barricade.

In accident investigation school they taught us to look for that
possible occurrence as it accounts for injuries that may have
been caused due to that as opposed to injuries that would have
occurred had the body not been so thrown off the machine.
The launching of a bullet from a jet is exactly the same as a
body being launched from a vehicle just as long as another
force to cause it has been applied. For the bullet, that force
was the gunpowder. From a vehicle it is any extra motion or
movement to eject the body. The standard formulas in physics
cannot be used without the added force that may have been
applied. Only in the investigation of the accident can these
forces be determined or if they are non-existent. Prior to
any such accident, they must always be considered as possible,
regardless of the probability.

All of this is also why it is important for a rider to try to come
off his machine as controlled as is possible. The attempt to
do a controlled layover, or to intentionally fall in a certain
direction and manner can be a help to prevent launching.

This type of incident can only be viewed when actually working
to view the crash and damage as applied to the injuries that are
medically expected and compared to the injuries actually incurred.
The math for each must be done only after each occurrence. They
can't apply before. The added 'force' mentioned is determined by
the details of the accident, therefore, it is directly proportionate
to the type of 'launch'. It is true that the rider is already moving at
the speed of the machine during travel, and will continue forward
at that same speed as long as some other force such as the motorcycle
being flipped as a result of the impact. At a time such as that many
factors must be calculated to obtain the body speed from that launching.
Speed of the machine at impact, weight of the machine, angle of
impact, metal strength and deformation, and even the coefficient of
friction immediately preceding impact must be considered. That is
why the most fully investigated accidents final report may take a week
or two to complete. If not already in a database, manufacturers must
be contacted for specifications of the parts involved. Tests on materials
done, and a lot of paperwork. Even more than I have mentioned here.

I was good at such investigations, but always hated all the work needed.
These days most agencies just write up basics, and let attorney's do
what they want for the case. No longer do many attorney's hire professional
investigators just for this purpose. I see many cases where the end result
of a suit are not what they should have been.

As far as jaw/ face injuries go, today modern medicine can rebuild most
with ease. I saw one man that attempted suicide with a shotgun in his
bathroom. He only succeeded in blowing his lower jaw completely off.
Today he is eating and chewing easily. Not like Bufford Pusser. (The
Tennessee sheriff of the movie.) We met him personally as his brother
had a bar here called the Western Lounge. I worked it extra as security.
My wife was also the editorial and research assistant to Maj. George Nonte,
and I was also his associate in the firearms business where we tested,
and evaluated new firearms then published articles on them. From our
positions, we met Bufford when he was recovering from his wounds,
and came up to Peoria to visit his brother. At that time the injuries
to his face/ jaw were not medically viable to fix. He did have serious
problems in eating and drinking. Things have changed these days.

You are correct about the velocity of a bullet slowing as soon as it
leaves the muzzle of the firearm. However, this takes a lot of
distance before any appreciable deceleration is measured. The
point at which a bullet is typically fired toward a body wearing a
ballistic vest there has been no such deceleration yet. Instead
the penetration force of the bullet is at its maximum velocity.
(FBI statistical surveys have shown that 97% of the time such shots
are fired within six yards.) No where near far enough for the
formula to apply.

Unfortunately for me, I don't tend to add much explanation, or at
times use more descriptive wording of certain things. Unless one
who is reading the work is highly schooled in writing, the subject,
and the technical aspects of the subject, they merely just
either accept, or reject the content they had read. Since our
bodies are merely a biological, chemical, mechanical, electrical
apparatus, and our mind works primarily due to the electricity,
and electricity always takes the path of the least resistance, our
previous memory on any given subject will always route the
person's acceptance of rejection based upon what is easiest for
him to do.

What I write is always of fact, not imagination. All is based upon
knowledge, training, and personal experience. Of course, this can
also be a problem for me when someone can't relate to what I say,
or what I mean, and haven't said. If writing a technical paper, or a
how-to book, I have to do differently than in these chat forums.

I do value your observations, however. Whether they apply or not
for what I have presented is not material. What is material is the
fact that both of our observations and information is being read for
others to examine and compare to their personal thinking. Even
though the principle of electricity might cause a wrong direction of
thought, and action, at least the information is available.

Good observations, though.
Dave.
"Survival is one's own ability to cope with and overcome any adverse or threatening situation, condition, casualty or event." ©Dj 1969

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WingAdmin
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Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by WingAdmin »

Hi Dave,

I agree, the size of the airbags that come out of that jacket in the video are nowhere near large enough. I had a search for another jacket I had seen a while ago, but didn't find it - it had much larger airbags, and included airbags that came up and supported the head and neck, much like the HANS device you mentioned - something that it seems only dirt bike riders wear.

I also agree with the "launching" of the rider off a bike in a frontal collision - I was launched up and over the hood of a pickup truck that turned in front of me many years ago, flipped in the air and landed on my feet quite a ways down the road. Of course, I was still moving fairly quickly and was slammed right to the ground, where the face shield and chin bar of my helmet took a beating but kept my face intact.

All in all, some excellent observations and comments.

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Mh434
Posts: 1512
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Motorcycle: 1997 gl1500 SE
Previous:
1981 GL1100I
1989 Kawasaki Concours

Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by Mh434 »

I just wish more riders would take it to heart! Every day, I see folks riding in shorts, tank tops & flip flops. And every time, I imagine the results of even a low-speed get-off, and shudder. No wonder our insurance costs are so high...

User avatar
DJnRF
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:50 pm
Location: FINALLY! Moved to a new home in Creve Coeur, IL.
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100i Interstate
And, many others since I started riding. Started on a Harley in 1956.

Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by DJnRF »

Mh434 wrote:As far as helmets are concerned, with the exception of the Harley beanie (the ones that have a sticker inside saying "For novelty use only - not for use as a safety helmet"), whatever helmet you wear will protect you infinitely better than the one you've left at home.
Very true! What I hate to see are the many cheap helmets that are for motorcycle riding
that are made of a one piece molded poly. One scratch on the surface breaks the surface
tension so that it can 'pop' like a sack of ripe tomatoes when accident force is applied.
Surface tension is what allows a water spider to walk on water, but if you break that
tension (such as with liquid soap added to the water) the spider will sink.

I had investigated one incident where the cycle rider was killed by just that problem
when his head struck the side rail of a truck that had turned in front of him. He probably
would have survived that crash had he a good helmet. (He also would have been able
to avoid the crash completely had he not been riding alongside of another. The other
rider had time to swing around the truck, but being alongside instead of staggered to
the rear of his friend, he did not have the time, or space, to avoid the crash.)

With the many types of good protective gear for riders these days, which also fit
with your remark of any helmet being better than the one left at home, a rider
decision of what to wear comes down to two issues. First is the mental acceptance
of need (or not), and the second is the ability to afford those things.

Manufacturers do not care about really helping to provide the best protection. If this
were not true, there would be no cheap and useless products for sale. The whole
'bottom line' is to make money. If they can do it in a market, they will sell whatever
they can for that bottom line. Dealers are the worst on this issue as they will
provide whatever they find to sell. They may know what is best, but they are
going to offer what they can market in their area regardless of quality. The
various manufacturers of even quality products will also have some of lesser
quality to sell. Some are quite useless, but as long as they sell is all that matters.

Dave.
"Survival is one's own ability to cope with and overcome any adverse or threatening situation, condition, casualty or event." ©Dj 1969

User avatar
DJnRF
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:50 pm
Location: FINALLY! Moved to a new home in Creve Coeur, IL.
Motorcycle: 1981 GL1100i Interstate
And, many others since I started riding. Started on a Harley in 1956.

Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by DJnRF »

HawkeyeGL1200 wrote:
DJnRF wrote: Penetration of the Kevlar is greater when the velocity has increased sufficiently away from the muzzle.
Hawkeye, I always tend to not explain my words as I should at times.
When I stated "when the velocity has increased sufficiently away from the muzzle"
what I meant was once the bullet had passed through the crammed up air, and
the escaping gases around the muzzle. It is at that point that the acquired
velocity of the bullet is then on its 'free path' to the target. Once the gasses
that drove the bullet down the barrel escape the muzzle, and the air disturbance
at the muzzle with the escape of the bullet and gasses have been completely
'left behind' and dissipated, the only forces then applied to the bullet are
the natural wind, and gravity. It is at this time that the true velocity is left
for its path. That is what I had meant by the "increase sufficiently away from
the muzzle."

Dave.
"Survival is one's own ability to cope with and overcome any adverse or threatening situation, condition, casualty or event." ©Dj 1969

User avatar
Mh434
Posts: 1512
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:24 pm
Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Motorcycle: 1997 gl1500 SE
Previous:
1981 GL1100I
1989 Kawasaki Concours

Re: Distinguished Attire

Post by Mh434 »

So true, Dave (re: prices of helmets). It bothers me that the Snell-approved helmets, for example, are so high in price that many people simply can't afford them. Believing that helmets that are anything less (basic DOT approval, for example) are all created equal may result in folks buying the cheapest helmets they can.

I was looking at Snell-approved helmets in my area a few weeks ago. The cheapest of them was around the $500 mark, was ugly, very uncomfortable, and had none of the features we've come to expect on modern helmets - except protection. The nicer ones ranged up to the $1500-$2000 area. Young, new riders just aren't likely to want to (or be able to) spend more on their helmet than they did for their new-to-them motorcycle. I can understand a bit of a premium, but price gouging on safety equipment is wrong, on every level, IMHO.



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