Shell oil/Seafoam/Wet Clutch

[tunaboy]

I have an '80 1100 with 22K and have been running Mobil synthetic oil in it for the last 3-5000 miles. Yesterday I added 6oz of Seafoam to the oil and ran it for about 40 miles, drained the crankcase and replaced the filter and added the Shell oil recommended. There are 3 things I noticed. The starter seemed a little more crisp, the clutch seem to engage a little better and the transmission seems a little more notchy and clunky. The reason I went with the Mobile 1 was because of transmission noise. The Seafoam did do what it was supposed to and the improvement in the starter and clutch are a good thing. Is the slipperier synthetic oil better for the transmission but not so good for the clutch?
Tuna

[SteveB123]

Depends on which oils you've used, both Mobil and Shell make many different oils.

[RBGERSON]

QUICK!!!!! check the oil bottle does it say friction modifiers or similar there is a small circle on the bottle the bottom part should be blank if not probably the wrong oil to use.,,then BAD!!! for you clutch it will make it slip and burn..

[tunaboy]

Sorry for the confusion. The Shell oil that I am trying is the RotellaT 15-40 and the Mobile product is Mobile 1 synthetic. I do believe that the Shell RotellaT oil is the one recommended. So if I understand the oil thing the products with friction modifiers are too slippery for the wet clutch and causes it to slip and burn our sooner? The synthetic worked better in the transmission yielding quieter shifts but if it fry's my clutch I will not use it. If you don't use the Shell oil in your bike what do you use?
Tuna

[SteveB123]

Sorry for the confusion. The Shell oil that I am trying is the RotellaT 15-40 and the Mobile product is Mobile 1 synthetic.

WHICH Mobil 1 synthetic were you using?
Car or bike?

[tunaboy]

Sorry, did not know that Mobile made a motorcycle specif and an auto version of Mobile 1. I had been using the auto version and probably should have been using the bike product. If the bike version of mobile 1 is OK for wet clutches any idea if my transmission would clunk less with it as well? I do see other bike specific oils from other manufactures but not the Mobile stuff. Do you use RotellaT or something else?
Tuna

[SteveB123]

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-10W-4 ... t/16767829

I use Rotella.

[seabee_]

I use DeloLE oil with good results. Any of the 'diesel' oils like Delo or Rotella are good for the 'wings. The biggest thing is to READ the label to be sure there are no friction modifiers.

[Wingsconsin]

Rotella T6 Full Synthetic Rated in the dark blue bottle is the synthetic of choice...
I have run that oil in my GL1500 for nearly 65,000 miles now with NO troubles.
Currently the GL1100 INterstate also is running the Rotella T6 with no troubles for the past 3500 miles +.
The Wings transmissions are clunky by nature. I have used the Delo 400 as well , but HAD the Synthetic for the last change already in the garage so I used it...
Change every 5K miles witha new filter and ride. Goldwings love to be used a LOT !
The more you ride - the better it will run .

[patbrandon1]

Not meaning to step on anyone's toes here, but there were different oils in 1996 than there were in 1980. And what your manual says to use is what you should use, because there are good reasons they suggest it. I change my oil and filter every 4,000 miles. The Honda service manual says to change it every 8,000 miles. I change it more often, because the engine will last longer. I use Rotella-T 10W40, but any oil that is the equivalent to what is recommend is a personal choice. There are oil opinion wars all over the internet about this. But I have many Goldwing friends that say never use synthetic in the oldwings.

Keep it changed often, (it may look clean but still be broke down) and use what is recommended in the manual. You will have better results. You do not get any added benefit to using synthetic oil in your 1980, and it costs more. I do use synthetic oil in my car and truck, so I'm not against it where applicable. I attached a pic of what my manual says.

[SteveB123]

You do not get any added benefit to using synthetic oil in your 1980, and it costs more. I do use synthetic oil in my car and truck, so I'm not against it where applicable. I attached a pic of what my manual says.

Boy, there's a can of worms.

What benefit do you get using synthetic in you car, that you feel you won't get in your bike?

[Wingsconsin]

Not meaning to step on anyone's toes here, but there were different oils in 1996 than there were in 1980. And what your manual says to use is what you should use, because there are good reasons they suggest it. I change my oil and filter every 4,000 miles. The Honda service manual says to change it every 8,000 miles. I change it more often, because the engine will last longer. I use Rotella-T 10W40, but any oil that is the equivalent to what is recommend is a personal choice. There are oil opinion wars all over the internet about this. But I have many Goldwing friends that say never use synthetic in the oldwings.

Keep it changed often, (it may look clean but still be broke down) and use what is recommended in the manual. You will have better results. You do not get any added benefit to using synthetic oil in your 1980, and it costs more. I do use synthetic oil in my car and truck, so I'm not against it where applicable. I attached a pic of what my manual says.

Well...I will agree to disagree here a little bit.

YES- Oils are different today than in 1980 (they are better now)

Changing oil more often does not guarantee longer engine life...Changing oil beyond it's useful life does lead to accelerated engine death.

The added beneift of using Synthetics in my mind is the extended life over regular dino oil.-That being less viscosity breakdown on synthetic vs dino. The oil stays slippery longer as the oil molecule strands stay bonded together longer. That being said I DO change every 5000 miles on synthetic oil - primarily becasue it is easy to remember when to do it....60,000 - 65,000-70,000...etc.

Using Synthetic in older 4 cylinder Wings can be problematic due to the advanced FLOW properties of synthetic. Changing from dino oil to synth wil expose leaks as the better flowing oil creeps its way past those seals where in the dino oil and it's sludge build up never leaked. I know this from when I had my GL1200 and made th switch. This problem also can show itself when people do the MMO or SEAFOAM in the oil thing -- this cleans the internals and removes the layer of sludge that was clogging the leak. Then they witch to Synthetic and it's better flow and bingo -- a leak -- blamed on switching from one oil to the other...which is not actually a true cause-effect relationship.

For MY Wings currently I am running Rotella T6 Synthetic. Longer periods between changes at 5000 miles (still well within the owners manual specifications) but I can run it to 10,000 if I desire. My GL1500 has 120K+, the GL1100 is at 90K and counting, and the Suzuki GS650 is running Delo because I happened to have a gallon in the garage for my mower and I used it ...

[patbrandon1]

Boy, there's a can of worms.
What benefit do you get using synthetic in you car, that you feel you won't get in your bike?

Good point. The car/truck run cooler, get better gas mileage, and need oil changing less often. These things would benefit any engine, so why don't I run it in my Wing? Because of the wet clutch. It is always highly recommended to not use friction modifiers. I cannot know there are none of those in synthetic oils, because they are not required to tell you that. I worked for an oil company for years, and the additives in synthetic are many, and not listed on the label. I don't like working on the clutch.

My biggest point in this whole synthetic vs. petroleum oil is, how did these Wings from long ago survive with such longevity in the beginning of their lives without synthetics?

[SteveB123]

Good point. The car/truck run cooler, get better gas mileage, and need oil changing less often. These things would benefit any engine, so why don't I run it in my Wing? Because of the wet clutch.

I thought we were talking about bike specific oils, like Mobil1 4T, or Rotella T6.
The specs for 4T go on at length about the lack of friction modifiers.

[WINGER3]

I have an '80 1100 with 22K and have been running Mobil synthetic oil in it for the last 3-5000 miles. Yesterday I added 6oz of Seafoam to the oil and ran it for about 40 miles, drained the crankcase and replaced the filter and added the Shell oil recommended. There are 3 things I noticed. The starter seemed a little more crisp, the clutch seem to engage a little better and the transmission seems a little more notchy and clunky. The reason I went with the Mobile 1 was because of transmission noise. The Seafoam did do what it was supposed to and the improvement in the starter and clutch are a good thing. Is the slipperier synthetic oil better for the transmission but not so good for the clutch?
Tuna

I use Rotella and Delo for as long I can remember, sometimes that's about 2 days. Trucker's know oil and drive 5-600,000 mi. on there engines befor a rebuild, they know what's best.Here is the site for all your oil questions, read and learn.

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

[patbrandon1]

I thought we were talking about bike specific oils, like Mobil1 4T, or Rotella T6.
The specs for 4T go on at length about the lack of friction modifiers.

Here is a pro synthetic bike motor oil article link...http://www.post610.org/truth_about_motorcycle_oils.htm

I guarantee you that there are friction modifiers in all synthetic motor oils. I used to blend them. Although the article is a long read,it is worth the info. Notice in the article about how motorcycle motor oils are made to have one believe they are better. It is a ploy to make money. Slap a different label on, and charge $3 more per quart. THIS HAPPENS.

I am going to change my oil every 3 to 4 thousand miles, depending on how I have ridden during that oils life. 100 miles before I change it, I am going to run Seafoam in it for 100 miles, because there is left behind sludge and contaminants that I like to clean out. Synthetic leaves these behind as well. And I would change synthetic at the same interval, and Seafoam it too. Soooo to me, why spend 3 times as much for the oil, and I know there is an amount of some type of friction modifier in it that I don't want in there. With conventional oil, there are none.

Synthetic oils are blended chemicals, conventional oils are refined crude oil. There is a big difference, and the older Wings were designed and engineered to run on the later.

I'm just sharing what facts I have personal experience with. And I hope that we can continue to learn from each other like this. You make very valid points, and I do take heed to them, and appreciate your time. I just have the idea that the benefits aren't enough to use synthetic, when I do personally know they contain some form of friction modifiers. And I never want to tear into a Goldwing clutch again if I don't have to. The one I did have to tear into (1983 1100), the PO had used synthetic, specific to motorcycle use. Not saying that was the total demise of the clutch, but I know it doesn't help it.

Keep postin, riding, and smiling. And thanks again for taking time to help me learn.

[SteveB123]

I guarantee you that there are friction modifiers in all synthetic motor oils. I used to blend them.

"So unlike Mobil 1 for cars, Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 motor oil has no friction modifiers, which could lead to clutch slippage"
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... aspx#FAQs2

"AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil contains no friction modifiers and promotes smooth shifting and positive clutch engagement."
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/m ... cycle-oil/

Who did you used to blend for?

[patbrandon1]

"So unlike Mobil 1 for cars, Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 motor oil has no friction modifiers, which could lead to clutch slippage"
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... aspx#FAQs2

"AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil contains no friction modifiers and promotes smooth shifting and positive clutch engagement."
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/m ... cycle-oil/

Who did you used to blend for?

I used to work for Eastern Oil Company in Pontiac MI and we produced products for Shell, Sunoco, and Eastern (house brand). And the exact same oil for Shell and Sunoco was considerably more costly than Eastern. Advertising costs? Or do people like to have brand names?

I read the links, and of course the manufacturers of the products are going to promote them on their own sites. But here is a direct quote from the Mobil site link you posted...
"Additive packages balanced differently for motorcycle engine and transmission operation. For passenger vehicles, fuel economy and emission system protection are higher priorities. These require low phosphorus systems and the use of friction modifiers. Motorcycle oils do not require friction modifiers for fuel economy and for better clutch friction less/no friction modifier is optimum. Motorcycle oils allow the use of higher levels of antiwear additives such as ZDDP (phosphorous)."

Where this quote says "less/no friction modifier is optimum", that does not say there is none in their oil. And where it says "optimum" why doesn't it say no friction modifier is "necessary"? Because it is in there, or they would have worded it accordingly, stating that it contains no friction modifier. And another quote from there..."So unlike Mobil 1 for cars, Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 motor oil has no friction modifiers, which could lead to clutch slippage." That statement doesn't say it doesn't contain ANY. It says "Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 motor oil has no friction modifiers, which could lead to clutch slippage.", and in their opinion, the modifiers it contains will not lead to clutch slippage. The modifiers are very expensive, and very little amounts of it are added, but to justify charging top end prices, the miniscule amount that is added, in their opinion won't cause clutch slippage. The way they word it, is covering their butt.

So I'll quit buggin about this. It's just that I know what oil companies have on their agenda, and have watched them be less than honorable about their marketing techniques. The motor in my Wing will last just as long as any that use synthetic. And when others ask, I tell them what I have experienced as a helpful way they can make a more informed decision. To trust the oil companies for what they post as total truth, is a mistake.

[hrobinson]

I have a friend who lives out where they don't pave the roads. In the Mojave Desert. He runs pure Synthetic (Don't remember the brand I think its Castor Oil) and Changes between 5 and 10 thousand and has never had a problem with slipping clutch. He has over 200,000 miles on the bike.

I have another friend who put over 400,000 miles on a '82 interstate using just 20-50 Caster Oil (Standard motor oil). The bike burned up in a garage fire before it hit the bone yard. This motor is now in another '83 goldwing and still going strong.

I have run Synthetic / Synthetic blend in my motorcycle from time to time. But since I like to change my oil every 3 to 4 thousand, I started using standard Petroleum oil. In the summer I have run 20-50 Castor oil (standard motor oil) and in the winter I have run 10-40 for a thinner viscosity in the colder weather. Ah yes living in Southern California has its advantages.

Anyway, I have found that running 20-50 in the winter can cause Starter Clutch problems, where the oil is too thick to allow the roller bearings to lock in place when the bike is cold, so you hear grinding sound because the starter gear has not fully engaged. Using the 10-40 alleviated that problem.

We all know the old adage change oil every 3000 miles or loose it. I did read an article about 10 years ago, where Consumer reports took 3 brand new Taxi cars in New York, disassembled the engine completely. Measured each part and put them back together.

The test was simple using standard petroleum oil.

Taxi number 1 Change oil every 3,000 miles as recommended.
Taxi number 2 Change oil every 6,000 miles.
Taxi Number 3 Change oil very 10,000 miles.

After 100,000 miles disassemble all motors and take the same measurements again to see of there was any differences in engine wear between the taxis.

Guess what they found out?.

You will never guess.

The result of this test was there was NO appreciable difference in engine wear between changing oil at 3,000 6,000 or 10,000 miles.

All taxi's were exactly the same, Engine, Year, and capabilities. They were all driven in New York traffic for 100,000 miles and all had engine oil changes at the specified intervals. The "Change Oil" every 3,000 miles was a marketing campaign to get you to change the oil more frequently than was necessary.

Today we now see manufactures routinely say to change your oil every 7,000-10,000 miles. Yes, chemistry has improved but based on the test above not by much.

Now. We all fret and wonder. Oh our wet clutches just destroy the oil. They shear the oil molecule into oblivion. Really? What about the clearance between the cylinder wall and the piston. Think about this for a second. How often do we shift and activate the clutch as compared to the long drive. How often does the oil actually get smeared into oblivion? The oil molecule damage from our clutches, I feel, is far less than the overall damage our engines cause when operating at 5,000 RPM. Most of the time the clutch is firmly secured to the engine crank shaft. My feeling is that the damage our wet clutches do to the oil is minimal at most.

Do we need to spend extra money on Synthetic? I really don't think so as long as we are changing oil in according with the manufactures specifications. After all in 1982, Synthetics were just being developed. They were expensive and some times hard to get. They never intended to have synthetics run through these motors. Not that doing so would hurt the engine.

I have seen posts on other forums, where the rider puts synthetic in his cycle, then STILL changes every 3,000 miles. The only reason you want to run synthetic is the LONGER interval between oil changes. The other reason to run synthetic is that Synthetic is "thinner" and gets "thinner" faster. This in theory gets oil to critical parts quicker. Otherwise I feel its really a waste.

The reason you change the oil is as the oil is circulated through the engine it picks up dirt. Some times the engine floods and raw fuel leaks into the crank case. Most of the time the additive packages just break down due to hot temps and close tolerances of the piston and crank shaft.. These packages are what prevent foaming of the oil. The one thing you don't want to have happen is for the oil to foam up. it then looses its lubricating capabilities.

Remember that all you need is one molecule layer of oil to adequately lubricate all the parts. Also remember that oil acts to cool the motor as its running. So it does serve two purposes.

This is the same old argument "Should I run premium in my bike". That answer is also NO. It too is a waste of money. The engine is designed to run Regular fuel. Only vehicles that say "Use premium fuel only" should you run premium fuel. These would be ... oh BMW's (you know the "Bring My Wallets"). Mercedes, Lamborghini, Porche, etc. Those actually say on the fuel gauge "Use Premium Fuel only". Our bikes run fine on regular octain fuel. I did not mean to change the subject in this paragraph, but like I said in the beginning, its the same argument.

I am not a chemist or an expert in oil, I was just relating what I have experienced in the past.

I know that everyone wants the best for their ride. The question I really hear is "Will Synthetic oil prolong the life of my motor better than petroleum." I feel the answer is ... Well ... I don't know. Both provide lubrication for the motorcycle. I feel the only difference between Synthetic and petroleum (besides price) is the length of time between oil changes. That is the only benefit.

So If I were going on a coast to coast ride (from west coast to east coast) I might actually put Synthetic into the bike. Just so I don't have to change oil in the middle of the trip. For smaller trips and around town, I will continue to use petroleum. As I have over 150,000 miles on my bike and the motor is still running strong. I don't see the need to change.

-- Harold

[Wingsconsin]

well said Harold ..

[patbrandon1]

Very good write up Harold. I will bookmark this so I can direct others to see some quality words on this subject.

But there are 2 more advantages to using synthetic oil. In cars and trucks, it runs cooler, and creates more horsepower. In a motorcycle engine which is considerably smaller, it has the same effect, i.e. cooler running, and more horsepower, but at such a smaller degree that it is hard to measure. But it does do those 2 things for a motorcycle.

I wish I didn't know that there are slight amounts of friction modifiers in synthetic oil. I would probably use it in my wing, as I am pleased with how well it works in my car and truck. But I do know what is in synthetic, and hate working on clutches.

My users manual recommends that I change my oil and filter every 8,000 miles. Does Mother Honda want my bike to break down sooner with that recommendation? Probably not. Why do they recommend 8,000 miles and almost everyone I know changes it WAY more often. I believe to a point that we have been brainwashed to believe we have to. Hornswaggled, and mislead. I change mine more often, because I also know that petroleum oil is not refined as well as it used to be.

Thanks for taking the time to post the information Harold.

[tunaboy]

So if you are running a synthetic or an oil with friction modifiers can you feel the clutch slip on acceleration? Any tell tale signs to be aware of? As mentioned earlier I had been running automotive Mobile 1 synthetic and the only thing I noticed was that the transmission shifted quieter. After changing to Shell RotellaT 15-40 the first thing I noticed was the transmission was clunkier but the clutch engaged a little smoother.
Note: I noticed in the local "Farm" store that they sold Valvoline 10-40 ATV oil compatible with wet clutches. I called the 800 number on the bottle and asked about using this in my bike. I was told that because of the higher RPM's that I should use their motorcycle specific oil. This sounds a little hokey to me. The ATV product was $5 quart, the motorcycle oil was $7 quart and probably the same product.

[patbrandon1]

So if you are running a synthetic or an oil with friction modifiers can you feel the clutch slip on acceleration? Any tell tale signs to be aware of? As mentioned earlier I had been running automotive Mobile 1 synthetic and the only thing I noticed was that the transmission shifted quieter. After changing to Shell RotellaT 15-40 the first thing I noticed was the transmission was clunkier but the clutch engaged a little smoother.
Note: I noticed in the local "Farm" store that they sold Valvoline 10-40 ATV oil compatible with wet clutches. I called the 800 number on the bottle and asked about using this in my bike. I was told that because of the higher RPM's that I should use their motorcycle specific oil. This sounds a little hokey to me. The ATV product was $5 quart, the motorcycle oil was $7 quart and probably the same product.

Here is what I was told to do by a fellow winger when I first got my 1100 and was told that it was running synthetic by the previous owner. And the PO also left an almost full quart of oil that he said was presently in the bike in the saddle bag. It was a major brand motorcycle specific synthetic oil....

Run on the highway at exactly 5000 rpms and note the miles/km per hour. Change the oil out good with a shot of Seafoam, and put in the standard oil. Go back to the highway and go exactly 5000 rpms and note the miles/km per hour. For me there was a difference of 7 miles per hour faster. So I believe there was slippage.

As far as the clutch slip on acceleration, I couldn't tell you, but if it was slipping at 5000 rpms, it may well be slipping during acceleration.

Was the 800 number operator being square with you? I gotta think they are trained to tell you to use the motorcycle specific oil. Is this honest information? The only way to know is to ask the chemist what is the specific chemical makeup of each. I am sure they are a bit different, but does that mean one is better for the bike than the other, or just a way to make more money? That is a call you will have to make, because you probably won't ever get the info you need from them to know for positive. You could always get a quart of each, and have a complete chemical analysis done on them to compare.

And just because I worked for an oil company that wasn't totally totally ethical in their marketing, doesn't mean they are all that way. But hey, if you could make $2 more on a bottle of something by slapping a different label on the same thing, would you be tempted to do that if it meant an extra $200,000 a year?

[tunaboy]

I am very interested in your comments about the clutch slipping on your bike at highway speeds. I had been running synthetic oil until a few days ago and now have the Shell RotellaT in the crankcase. As soon as the weather permits I will go check my RPM vs MPH and let you know what I find. In the example you sited I could see how a 7mph increase at 5000 rpm could damage a clutch in short order.
Tuna

[tunaboy]

Please see my post one spot up. I have been waiting for the weather to break so I can do the RPM vs MPH test on my 80 1100. Well the weather is still wet so I pulled out 2 old road tests one from Cycle and the other from Cycle World on my exact bike. Cycle lists the RPM @ 60mph at 3700. Cycle world list the RPM @ 60 MPH at 3722. My bike is stock and the tires are stock. I know for sure that my RPM @ 60 MPH is 4000 RPM. This is with synthetic Mobile 1 oil -the car stuff. I am VERY interested in getting the bike out to see if my RPM is now 3700 at 60 mph with the Shell RotellaT oil. I will get you some feedback tomorrow. If my RPM drops this would indicate clutch slipping with the synthetic and I will put up with the clunkier transmission with the Shell so I don't have to worry about clutch plates.
Tuna