Tire rotation direction is wrong


Technical information and Q&A applicable to all years and models of Goldwings
User avatar
The Wolf
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:49 pm
Location: Ridgely, MD
Motorcycle: 2013 1800 /Roadsmith Trike
1995 1500 Aspencade sold
2003 Illusion Blue
1975 Goldwing
1975 Honda 360T
1975 Goldwing rebuilding taking it naked

Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by The Wolf »



I just got a 1995 Aspencade that had new tires put on in 2010 and only has 300 miles on them. Been working on getting everything working and found that the front tire has the rotation arrow going in thee wrong direction. It's a Dunlop Elite3 130/70 -18. I'm thinking it was mounted wrong, but not sure, any advise would be appreciated!
Ken in Maryland


The Wolf in Ridgely!
User avatar
ka4yqi
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:32 pm
Location: Carrollton, Ga.
Motorcycle: 2012 goldwing trike with RoadSmith hts1800 kit
2007 Kawasaki 1600 Nomad
1999 Honda Valkyrie Interstate
Sold = 1998 Goldwing Se
Contact:

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by ka4yqi »

Get the arrow up to the top of the tire it should be point forward. if on the bottom near the road it should be point to the rear of the motorcycle.
User avatar
Viking
Posts: 3760
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:59 pm
Location: North Bay, Ontario, Canada
Motorcycle: 2009 GL1800 AD
1987 Harley Softail Custom
1974 Harley FLH (sold)
1965 Harley FLHE (sold)
1957 Harley Chopper (sold)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by Viking »

Is it possible with a GL1500 to mount the wheel backwards - for instance, will the axle still slide into place? If so, just turn the wheel around and reinsert the axle.
It ain't about the destination - it's all about the journey

Image
User avatar
RoadRogue
Posts: 2069
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:51 pm
Location: southern Okanogan BC, Canada
Motorcycle: 1997 1500SE

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by RoadRogue »

Sorry Viking, unlike your 1800, the front wheel of the 1500 drives the speedo cable. It is attached to the left side of the wheel, so NO you cant just flip the wheel over.
Ka4yqi has it correct. 8-)
Ride safe, Todd
Over night campers welcome
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

Other than tread directionality for rain/snow does it make any detectable difference? Some suggest the internal structure is slightly altered in directional tires. Is that true?

In other words is it worth the bother of correcting directionality?



http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/tran ... inf20e.doc
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

http://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=980968

"Increased tread depth of the circumferential grooves in tires is an important contributor to wet skid resistance. Directional tires are now becoming a common design because the groove pattern gives the impression of more aggressive traction capabilities. However, the directional requirement makes tire rotation for maintenance purposes more difficult by requiring a dismount and remount to maintain the correct direction of rotation. This paper reports on a study that was designed to test reversed rotation with regard to braking and lane changing on wet pavements. The study was designed to address a specific issue involving the right front reversed application of a directional tire, as well as developing data from motion measuring and global positioning system instrumentation. Nineteen combinations of tire sets were tested at three test locations. Findings show that mounting one or more directional tires opposite the intended direction of rotation did not appear to adversely affect braking or maneuvering on wet pavements."
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/ ... techid=188&

"So what is our conclusion? On dry roads and in moderate rain at city speeds, even though they always look cool, directional tires do not provide much of a wet traction advantage. However for drivers who spend a lot of their driving time on the highways, interstates or at higher speeds (during race track drivers schools and lapping days), directional tires will better resist hydroplaning.

Unfortunately directional tires do exhibit a drawback because their tread pattern is designed to only roll in one direction. It limits their tire rotation pattern possibilities. Without being remounted on their wheels, directional tires can only be rotated from the front to rear axles on the same side of the vehicle. This makes them more susceptible to irregular wear (sometimes called “saw tooth” or “heel & toe” wear).

To minimize this possibility, it is important that tires with directional tread designs be rotated more frequently than other tires, especially early in the tire’s life. While tire rotation can’t completely eliminate the possibility of irregular wear, it helps even out wear on most vehicles because the tires are experiencing different stresses as they are repeatedly reassigned from the “driven” to the “non-driven” axle, as well as to and from the vehicle’s steering axle.

NOTE: If directional tires are accidentally installed backwards during initial installation or following tire rotation; the driver should simply reduce speeds in the rain and have the tires installed correctly at the first opportunity. Running directional tires backwards for a brief period of time will not hurt their internal structure."
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

To rephrase my question, assuming proper inflation is the front motorcycle tire at risk of aquaplaning at road legal speed and does incorrect rotation of a directional tread pattern make a measurable difference? So far, the few references found above suggest it appears purely cosmetic. I would welcome additional evidence.
User avatar
silverado6x6
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:29 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska and Adelaide,South Australia
Motorcycle: 1995 GL1500 Aspencade
And 17 other bikes, 5 more Goldwings, 3 Ventures, 2 Vmax

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by silverado6x6 »

I do not think there is an Elite 3 "rear" tire in this size, but if there was some folks have mounted a rear specific tire on the front like Bridgestone Battlax BT45, and they mount them reversed. Maybe somebody was confused and thought your E3 needed to be like that?
I was going to buy the BT45 rear in 130/70-18 but will be mounting a heavier load rating Shinko front tire instead.
Check the bearings out while you have wheel off, they are cheap insurance to replace, and also its a good time to clean out the speedo gear and repack with grease, some use Lubriplate, I use SuperLube synthetic grease.
Founder of Steel Horse Restorations
Image
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

Found this statement ...

"The other big reason for noting wheel direction has to do with the manufacturing process. The tread rubber is initially a flat strip that's cut to length, at an angle, and then spliced together with the two ends overlapping, creating a hoop. Under acceleration, a tire mounted backwards will try to peel back this splice. The opposite is true for the front wheel, where directional forces are reversed under hard braking."

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Rid ... tions.aspx

It seems possible that delamination is possible or increased by reverse rotation. Is it true? If so and all tires are manufactured this way, shouldn't all tires be unidirectional?
User avatar
Viking
Posts: 3760
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:59 pm
Location: North Bay, Ontario, Canada
Motorcycle: 2009 GL1800 AD
1987 Harley Softail Custom
1974 Harley FLH (sold)
1965 Harley FLHE (sold)
1957 Harley Chopper (sold)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by Viking »

RoadRogue wrote:Sorry Viking, unlike your 1800, the front wheel of the 1500 drives the speedo cable. It is attached to the left side of the wheel, so NO you cant just flip the wheel over.
Okay, thanks Todd. All I had to check with was a parts manual, which showed that the axle was the same thickness right to the shoulder, but only showed the left side of the wheel, so I could not see if the right side might also have a notch which the speedo could fit into.
It ain't about the destination - it's all about the journey

Image
wingsound
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:37 pm
Location: Skaneateles, NY
Motorcycle: 81 GL1100 standard
93 GL1500 Aspencade
74 BMW R90/6

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by wingsound »

I'm running a rear tire on the front of my 93 and i installed it "backwards". By doing so the tread pattern is correct for the front. My understanding is that the rear is designed for acceleration whereas a front tire is designed for stopping.
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

We can see tread patterns of lugs and voids that appear directional, but so far I found no evidence that reverse rotation makes a measurable difference. Also there is no mention of tire construction implying any directional significance. Asymmetry of tire curb side vs inside is a separate issue.

In fact this was explored in a law suit in which it was alleged that directional tires mounted in reverse contributed to a (automobile) motor vehicle accident.

There was no evidence before the courts of a measurable effect on tire traction resulting from such a mounting error in an automobile.

No similar trial for a motorcycle was found in my search. I welcome any evidence relevent to this.

The measurable differences in hydroplaning seem to relate to coefficient of adhesion, pavement fluid depth, fluid viscosity, fluod density, tire inflation pressure, tire load (normal to the track), tire tread pattern (Size of lugs and voids) and tire tread depth.

As far as I can find, the rotational appearance of tread pattern seems to have more to do with effective marketing suggesting "higher designed performance" is thereby attained.



http://books.google.ca/books?id=Pvsv78x ... ty&f=false
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

Just to be clear, we are not discussing agricultural or off road conditions in which the self cleaning action of heavily lugged tractor tires is helpful .
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

As it turns out the literature on hydroplaning is extensive and much of it begins with engineering study of landing on wet runways. It has a more specific title of elastohydrodynamic tyre-road interaction. (Tyre is tire)

The 1960 video documents tests of aircraft tires to examine hydroplaning



   Never miss a video: Subscribe to the GoldwingDocs YouTube channel today!


Dynamic hydroplaning occurs when the amount of water encountered on the roadway by a rotating tire exceeds the combined drainage capacity of the tread pattern of the tire and the texture of the pavement. The mass and viscosity of the water cause it to resist being displaced from between the tire and the pavement, thus generating lift forces on the tire which reduce tire contact with the pavement. When the lift forces are sufficient to completely support the load on the tire, contact with the road is no longer made and full dynamic hydroplaning is said to occur.

Prior to the onset of full tire hydroplaning, a transitional condition occurs in which the surface contact area of the tire footprint is decreased as the vehicle speed is increased. This condition is sometimes referred to as “partial hydroplaning” and it is associated with a reduction in the effective friction coefficient.

The capacity of the tire tread grooves for water flow is a factor in limiting the development of partial hydroplaning. Thus, at a given operating condition on wet pavement, the effective friction coefficient is reduced by worn tires.
The following physical factors are involved in the occurrence of hydroplaning of automobile tires:
• Tire construction type, size and aspect ratio
• Tire loading
• Tread depth
• Tread pattern
• Inflation pressure
• Pavement surface texture
• Water depth
• Length of path in standing water
• Vehicle speed

http://www.mchenrysoftware.com/board/vi ... ?f=9&t=282

Interesting that tire pressure increases the rigidity of the tread in contact with the surface and gives greater resistance to the inward buckling of the tread by fluid attempting to lift the leading edge. Increased air pressure also tends to reduce tread groove closure. The grooves are necessary to allow water to be redistributed from the contact patch.

Equations for predicting hydroplaning from speed are empirically derived best curve fit equations. The fundamental mechanism is not understood and predicting tire deformation by the thin film of fluid during hydroplaning is far from complete.

Page 83
Surface texture versus skidding: measurements frictional aspects, and safety ...
By J. G. Rose, American society for testing and materials. Committee E-17 on skid resistance, ASTM.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=CRDEneS ... ne&f=false

Only one reference from a truck tire manufacturer said,

"Once directional tires are worn greater than 50%, there is generally no negative effect of running them in a direction opposite to the indicated direction of rotation.

Operating directional tires from new to 50% worn in the opposite direction of that indicated on the tire will result in the premature onset of irregular wear, excessive noise levels, and significantly reduced tread life."

http://www.aircrafttyres.com/manuals/Mi ... a_book.pdf

Overall one sees that marketing literature mentions the benefits of "directional" tread.

The current market for airplane tires does not mention tread patterns of a directional nature.

At least one other writer seems skeptical in noting inconsistent tread directionality among manufacturers of motorcycle tires.

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=035
User avatar
silverado6x6
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:29 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska and Adelaide,South Australia
Motorcycle: 1995 GL1500 Aspencade
And 17 other bikes, 5 more Goldwings, 3 Ventures, 2 Vmax

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by silverado6x6 »

Always mark your rims direction with tape or a Sharpy marker if you take your tire off and to a tire installer, also mark the tire direction as well, and unless your tire installer does not know make sure the dot if your tire has it is aligned at the stem for better balancing. Really pissed me off when I bought high dollar snow tires for my SUV and the monkeys just installed them any way they chose. They were marked where they should be mounted. More tire installers do not get a premium wage, get the picture?
Unless the installer knows which way the rim turns he can only guess, give him a break, and NO you cannot effectively just turn the rim around, the speedo side is on one side only, you may not even get the calipers aligned properly, you can actually mount it the wrong way but its not the RIGHT way.
Founder of Steel Horse Restorations
Image
User avatar
The Wolf
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:49 pm
Location: Ridgely, MD
Motorcycle: 2013 1800 /Roadsmith Trike
1995 1500 Aspencade sold
2003 Illusion Blue
1975 Goldwing
1975 Honda 360T
1975 Goldwing rebuilding taking it naked

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by The Wolf »

Ok thanks everyone for a great discussion- I know so much more than before! I will remove the tire and mount with the rotation arrow pointing in the go direction! But I've got to do so much more work- replacing old dash lights with LEDs etc- changing old brake fluid and repaired chewed wires! But it's still winter here in MD so I'm good! Happy riding!
The Wolf in Ridgely!
User avatar
waynedudes
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:14 am
Location: Richmond, KY
Motorcycle: 1994 GL1500 with CSC Trike conversion

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by waynedudes »

So, just a simple question about the BT-45 tire. Which way is forward mount and which way is reverse mount? Would forward mount be with the rain grooves pointing toward the front of the bike? There may be an arrow on the tire somewhere. But I do not see it. Thanks.
bri720a
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:20 pm
Location: United States
Motorcycle: 96 GL1500SE & 03 VTX1800r

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by bri720a »

The "arrow" on the BT45 and 46 look more like a decoration on the side of the tire. Similar size to the writing etc.
User avatar
waynedudes
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:14 am
Location: Richmond, KY
Motorcycle: 1994 GL1500 with CSC Trike conversion

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by waynedudes »

There is a small decoration arrow on the tire. With the "rear mount only" stamp. So now I am still wondering if I should mount the tire forward or reverse? I am mounting it on the front of a GL 1500 Trike. Just not totally convince on which direction to mount it. Thanks for the info.
User avatar
C-dub
Posts: 739
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:29 pm
Location: DFW, Texas
Motorcycle: 2016 Goldwing Audio/Comfort/Nav ABS
Previous bikes:
2005 Hayabusa
1999 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1979 Suzuki GS850G
1983 Suzuki GS1100E
1981 Honda XL250
1975 Suzuki GT185M
1970 Suzuki TC90 dirtbike

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by C-dub »

If you have a rim it will fit on for the front mount the rubber with the direction arrow reversed. The reason for the arrow is mostly force related and since most of the force for a rear tire is for propulsion it should be mounted appropriately. However, when mounted in the front the majority of force is for braking and no actual propulsion it should be mounted reverse.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargeant Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
Patriot Guard Rider
User avatar
dtcad
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:06 am
Location: Arkansas U.S.A.
Motorcycle: 2017 GL1800 7AC pearl glacier white

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by dtcad »

C-dub is correct. This is because of the tread overlap seam. The rear tire is mounted so the driving force of acceleration will push the top of the tread down onto the lower tread layer. That way the driving force won't lift the edge of the seam and cause it to open up. So if that tire is mounted on the front, the rotation would need to be reversed so the braking force on the seam wouldn't try to lift the leading edge of the tread seam. For example, lay your left hand flat with the wrist straight, then lay your right hand on top of your left hand aligning the wrists in a straight line. Envision braking or driving acceleration forces being applied to the leading edges of your fingertips on your right hand. That would lift them from the lower hand separating the seam.
DT, Enjoy the ride.
2017 GL1800 7AC Pearl Glacier White
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

Can non directional tread be placed on either drive or steering axles without regard to direction of rotation?
User avatar
eklimek
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 pm
Location: St Catharines Ontario Canada
Motorcycle: Daily driver CB500X
Track toy - Kawasaki Zx25r imported

Previous 81, 82, 83 GL1100, CB350f x many, 1969 Norton, 2017 zx6r (August 2019 157 mph Loring Maine)

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by eklimek »

“It is acceptable to remove the tire from the wheel rim, turn it around, and remount it to even up tread wear if the tire passes all other criterion of inspection for serviceability.”

https://www.aircraftsystemstech.com/p/a ... tires.html

https://images.app.goo.gl/9DcydLmQWj6Vfi7h8
grahamlanghorn
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:41 pm
Location: england
Motorcycle: GL1000 K2 1978. Yamaha XJR300

Re: Tire rotation direction is wrong

Post by grahamlanghorn »

motorcycle tyres became directional in the 70s with the advent of more power to the rear wheel and more braking force on the front due to the fitting of double disc brakes. this was to do with the direction the rubber was fitted to the cacase. if the rubber was laid in an anticlockwise direction,the braking force from the front brake was causing the rubber to peel off the carcase. same with the rear tyre, if the rubber was laid in a anticlockwise direction the power would peel the rubber away. this was first noticed on dunlop TT00 tyres. i changed a lot of them for this reason during my time working in motorcycle workshops. also now it is to do with the sipes that clear water from the tyre contact area


Post Reply