Ethanol! Yes or No?

[Solina Dave]

I have a '78 GL1000 with very high mileage. I take very good care of this motorcycle, and when I put it into hibernation at the beginning of this totally useless winter, it had been running nearly as well as it ever had. I have always used regular (87 octane) fuel, and never paid any attention to whether or not it contained ethanol. I see that regular fuel has a 10% ethanol level, and apparently it's better for the environment. How much better is possibly up for debate, but that's not my primary concern in this instance. My motorcycles health is my primary concern. Sorry if I offend!
Is there an advantage, or disadvantage in using fuel that contains ethanol? Should I use it, or not use it, if it contains ethanol? Should I hunt for, and make a point of using, ethanol free fuel, and why would I do that?

Riding is a gas!.........................Dave

[FM-USA]

ethanol in older motors will work but isn't the best.
One problem is you'll get poorer fuel mileage. Another is less power since the eth-garbage-anol BTU's are lower.
Next in line is that "stuff" eats away rubber that's not alcohol tolerant, some plastics too will suffer. My 1991 Wing's fuel petcock diaphragm was partly eaten away by it.
Is there a bright side? The Grand Jury is still out, a few say they don't have fuel separation, but best to use up as much as possible before hibernation so there's less chance of the fuel separation and causing real trouble in the spring. On the other hand it is said to fill your tank full to eliminate water absorption of water, eliminating the chance of condensation.

Fuel additives like Sta-bil will stave off these problems. Or find a station with non-ethanol Regular gas.
Some have good luck with Sea Foam for winter layovers others use MMO - Marvel Mystery Oil, yes it works in gas too. I'm currently a fan of Berrynman's B-12 products 2/3 less that price of Sea Foam, to me, it works better. BUT DO keep that under your hat so they don't raise the price on us.

HOPE this helps you find your answer.

[Solina Dave]

Thanks for that information FM. I appreciate it.

So, I gather that the bottom line in all of this, in your opinion, is to use ethanol free gasoline for more power, better gas mileage, and less destruction of certain rubber and plastic components. That sounds like very good advice. Also you're saying, in an effort to reduce the likelihood of gasoline separation, and moisture contamination, add Sta-bil. This is where I get confused. I get confused when you say, "or find a station with non-ethanol regular gas." I thought that I was already using non-ethanol gas for all the above reasons, so why would I even need Sta-bil for storage.
Also, I know nothing about Sea Foam, and MMO, and Berryman's B-12. Well, I've heard them mentioned from time to time, except Berryman's B-12, and how good they are, but I don't know what they do. Are they better to use than Sta-bil, if one is going to use Sta-bil, and why? Is Berryman's B-12 better, in your opinion, purely for economic reasons? Is any of this stuff determined to be superior, based on testing results, or do you think that it's simply more market hype?
I've been using regular gas from wherever was handy, no doubt some was laced with ethanol, and some wasn't. so I think that I'll probably start using ethanol free gasoline exclusively from now on.
Anyway, this does get one thinking, doesn't it?

Corn growers like ethanol.............................Dave

[FM-USA]

Through the decades I've used many different additive products, some work and many don't. Almost all the power additives are simply not worth it, unless you have too much $$$ in your pockets weighing you down.

As our environment agency continues to hack away the choices of what can be used in products, today most products are nearly all alike in ingredients. Extra this and good for fuel, extra that and it's good for oil, it's the same product but a slightly different mix. I read and cross reference the product sheets so this info is not conjecture.

I've been testing many spray can products the past few years and found a great carb-cleaner. Cost was lower per quantity of others. It gave a really nice boost in power when sprayed IN the gas tank and mixed with the fuel. But alas, bad ol-gov took it off the market and the company had to reformulate it with Acetone, not good for plastics to be soaking in, spray with quick evaporation it's OK.

Berryman's, I tried due to cost. For what I'm using it for (and not say'n) it works quite well vs the others.

Sta-bil, read online it's benefits but it's not the only product that keeps fuel stable over long cold winter storage.

One product that worked very well, our lovely gov took it off the market. Little blue can of 6 oz. called 'Stay Power' oil additive. My '63 Grand Prix 389HP 4 speed was giving me at best about 10.5mpg and adding just one can to the oil I got 15.75mpg immediately and consistently. I wondered why my skin tingled when it got on my hands.

Clock change time = zzz

[tfdeputydawg]

Most of yes and no about ethanol is from "wife's tales", IMO.
Fuel systems and motors have been built to run up to 10% and some for E-85(flex fuel vehicles).
Point is, don't worry about it, run what you want to run.
BTW, the only time you need any kind of fuel additive is during longer storage periods of time(winter)and then Stabil or Sea Foam are good choices!

[dingdong]

I run fuel with corn simply because it is less expensive and I don't see any difference between the with or without varieties. Can't feel any loss of power nor do I get any noticeable difference in fuel mileage. I do use Stabil in winter however.

[FM-USA]

Thanks for that information FM. I appreciate it.
So, I gather that the bottom line in all of this, in your opinion, is to use ethanol free gasoline for more power, better gas mileage, and less destruction of certain rubber and plastic components.
YES - Mostly YES - YES
.. in an effort to reduce the likelihood of gasoline separation, and moisture contamination, add Sta-bil. This is where I get confused. I get confused when you say, "or find a station with non-ethanol regular gas." I thought that I was already using non-ethanol gas for all the above reasons, so why would I even need Sta-bil for storage.
You answered this, you didn't know for sure what fuel you were using.
I have always used regular (87 octane) fuel, and never paid any attention to whether or not it contained ethanol.
Also, I know nothing about Sea Foam, and MMO, and Berryman's B-12. Well, I've heard them mentioned from time to time, except Berryman's B-12, and how good they are, but I don't know what they do. Are they better to use than Sta-bil,
Sta-bil is a little different than the other 2. My dad's past (1960's) used MMO in his boat for winter layovers.
Is any of this stuff determined to be superior, based on testing results, or do you think that it's simply more market hype?
I'm not a chemical engineer, just a seat of the pants user. As long as 'it' don't harm my 'x' and it works for what I need it for then it's a good thing. I will further test it for other things.
Corn growers like ethanol.............................Dave

It seemed there was a small amount of confusion on my answers, I was beyond tired then. Hopefully this separation clears things.

Several times now while riding 2-UP on long day trips, I used up a full tank of ethanol and it came to 42 mpg. I filled up with Regular gas and finished that tank at 51.88 mpg. Basically the same roads, saddlebag loads, speeds, temp, winds, sun/clouds, out-in-the-boony traffic.
My overall riding style isn't drastically different, I'm a tour rider. My consistent mpg difference between ethanol and Regular is around 23%.
Also I never take mpg's into account when I pull my trailer.
Floyd
"When humans have a choice, there will always be controversy."

[HawkeyeGL1200]

If I wanted to burn alcohol in my engines, I'd buy alcohol to run in them. That being "said" it's an unfortunate reality that unless I want to go to fairly extraordinary measures, I'm stuck (along with most of the rest of you) buying fuel for my vehicles with 10% ethanol added.

My problem with ethanol is many-faceted. It takes more BTUs to make Ethanol than you get out of it when you burn it as fuel. Think about that a moment. Somewhere, a power plant is probably burning COAL, to make Ethanol, so we don't pollute the air when we drive our cars? Physics being what they are, energy can be neither created nor destroyed... so it takes HEAT to produce the Ethanol, some of which is lost (conduction) in the ethanol production process.. Another issue I have with ethanol production is it is driving up the price of corn, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but large corporations are surely benefiting from this a lot more than family farms... and higher corn prices have a domino effect on the rest of the foods we eat... beef, pork, chicken (feed costs) and anything we consume with corn based ingredients have gone up in price as a result of ethanol production (Which, is probably subsidized by the Feds.) ...

Not to mention that alcohol loves water. When I was younger, we used to buy alcohol in a bottle to add to our fuel in the winter time specifically to pull water out of the gas to keep gas lines from freezing.

As to whether it is bad or not for our engines, I think the jury is still out over the long term. I don't think it is necessarily bad. I believe it has less lubricating qualities than regular gasoline, so I usually add a little oil in my gas to help keep the cylinders lubricated. Maybe the oil I add is worse than the ethanol is, but I get to decide to put it in my tank.. a choice I'm not given with ethanol.

I believe if you ride often and don't let the gas sit long-term, it is probably not any worse than "straight" gas on the fuel system. I do believe fuel mileage is slightly lower with ethanol, as it does not contain as many BTUs per pound as gasoline...

If I have a choice, and the options are getting more limited every day, I'll fill up with ethanol free gasoline. I've got to drive 40 miles to the closest station (to me) that sells ethanol free gas, so it doesn't make much sense to go that far to fill up. When I pass by, I stop and fill up.

[Solina Dave]

Here's a very interesting, and quite detailed presentation (Jan. 21, 2015) from Randakk, regarding fuel containing ethanol and it's use with older engines. It's definitely worth a read, and adds a lot of information to the subject.

http://www.randakksblog.com/more-on-fue ... -the-corn/

Somewhat corny.............................Dave

[WingAdmin]

Fuel systems and motors have been built to run up to 10% and some for E-85(flex fuel vehicles).!

That is true of cars and bikes built now, but being that ethanol was not widely used in gas in the US until the 1990's, bikes built before then were certainly not designed with ethanol in mind.

[Solina Dave]

Fuel systems and motors have been built to run up to 10% and some for E-85(flex fuel vehicles).!

That is true of cars and bikes built now, but being that ethanol was not widely used in gas in the US until the 1990's, bikes built before then were certainly not designed with ethanol in mind.

You're absolutely right, and from what I've been seeing, the use of E85 Flex fuel, with it's very high ethanol content, would likely have catastrophic consequences for certain carburetor components on any vehicle that was not E85 Flex fuel compatible. And that would definitely include motorcycles.
Do you think that carburetor kits that were manufactured and supplied, say in the last 10 or 20 years, would have component parts by default that were safe for use with 10% ethanol fuel, and that anyone with a relatively low mileage, older wing, that was not in need of serious carburetor work at this time, would be safe to assume that when the overhaul was done previously, possibly several years ago, that the components used, were compatible with the use of ethanol fuel?
Up here in Canada, I see that Shell, Esso, and Petro-Can stations, to name a few, have a 10% limit for ethanol content. (regular 87 octane) It drops to 5% for 91 octane, and 0% for expensive 93 octane, and above. I'm not likely to go for the higher, more expensive grades, simply to receive lower ethanol content, but just out of curiosity, if the manual for my '78 wing says to use 87 octane, do you think would I experience any significant performance variation, either pro or con, by using fuel with a higher octane rating, simply to facilitate the use of ethanol free fuel?

Just sayin'....................Dave

[HawkeyeGL1200]

I'm fairly certain that using fuel with a higher octane rating that the engine is tuned to use only has one effect... that of draining your wallet faster.

I ran some "mid-grade" fuel through my '81 a while ago and I couldn't tell you if there was any difference at all. My mileage was improved over the previous tank of fuel, but there are a lot of variables (like did I fill the tank exactly to the same level each time I filled up, riding conditions and summer/winter fuel blends in the US) that contribute to changes in measured fuel economy more than what brand or grade of fuel put in the tank...

I don't like it that I don't have a choice in the ethanol content of my fuel. People who want to use it should be given a choice at the pump... just as those of us who think it's welfare for large corporations and who don't want to contribute to the subsidy to the already rich, should be able to opt out at the pump. At a time where the US oil production is rapidly approaching the highest production of any country in the world (if it already hasn't, due to hydraulic fracturing or whatever it's called, also known as earth-quaking by me), ethanol use is dumb... particularly when the down sides are taken into consideration.

[Solina Dave]

Maybe a dumb question, but does anyone know, for certain, if an engine designed to run on 87 octane fuel, was to burn 94 octane fuel, would the engine run at a different temperature, either hotter or cooler?

What do you think, eh!............................Dave

[WingAdmin]

Maybe a dumb question, but does anyone know, for certain, if an engine designed to run on 87 octane fuel, was to burn 94 octane fuel, would the engine run at a different temperature, either hotter or cooler?

What do you think, eh!............................Dave

94 octane fuel has slightly less energy than 87. If the bike is fuel injected and the mapping is designed to identify and utilize higher octane fuel (by advancing the timing) you might see a very, very slight difference. But our bikes are not designed for this, and especially on carbureted bikes which measure solely by volume regardless what its being fed. So feeding them fuel that has less energy will cause them to run slightly cooler. Except...you will twist the throttle more to make up for the lack of energy, which will create more thermal energy.

So for all intents and purposes, you won't notice a difference.

[Solina Dave]

Maybe a dumb question, but does anyone know, for certain, if an engine designed to run on 87 octane fuel, was to burn 94 octane fuel, would the engine run at a different temperature, either hotter or cooler?

What do you think, eh!............................Dave

94 octane fuel has slightly less energy than 87. If the bike is fuel injected and the mapping is designed to identify and utilize higher octane fuel (by advancing the timing) you might see a very, very slight difference. But our bikes are not designed for this, and especially on carbureted bikes which measure solely by volume regardless what its being fed. So feeding them fuel that has less energy will cause them to run slightly cooler. Except...you will twist the throttle more to make up for the lack of energy, which will create more thermal energy.

So for all intents and purposes, you won't notice a difference.

Thank you very much for your excellent description. That makes sense.
Always wondered about that...............Dave

[FM-USA]

My Wing must be special,...
..when I crack the throttle open on Regular gas, IT MOVES, ethanol it only goes.
..when I crack the throttle open on Regular gas, the forks bottom out, ethanol don't.
..when I crack the throttle open on Regular gas, the bikes exhaust is sharper, ethanol's meek.

Have your passenger VASCAR the ethanol and Regular difference.

[Solina Dave]

I'm fairly certain that using fuel with a higher octane rating that the engine is tuned to use only has one effect... that of draining your wallet faster.

I ran some "mid-grade" fuel through my '81 a while ago and I couldn't tell you if there was any difference at all. My mileage was improved over the previous tank of fuel, but there are a lot of variables (like did I fill the tank exactly to the same level each time I filled up, riding conditions and summer/winter fuel blends in the US) that contribute to changes in measured fuel economy more than what brand or grade of fuel put in the tank...

I don't like it that I don't have a choice in the ethanol content of my fuel. People who want to use it should be given a choice at the pump... just as those of us who think it's welfare for large corporations and who don't want to contribute to the subsidy to the already rich, should be able to opt out at the pump. At a time where the US oil production is rapidly approaching the highest production of any country in the world (if it already hasn't, due to hydraulic fracturing or whatever it's called, also known as earth-quaking by me), ethanol use is dumb... particularly when the down sides are taken into consideration.

Hawkeye, please don't take any offence to what I say. I agree almost completely with what you're saying.
I'm pretty well positive that ethanol is here to stay, and all the philosophical commentary on earth isn't going to change a damn thing. The only possible way for the average Joe to create any form of change in existing policy, would be to run for political office, and personally I'd rather slash my wrists.
Our gallons are 17% bigger than your gallons, up here in the Great White North, and we all know "bigger is better!" Lol. Having said that, based on U.S. figures, and somewhat rough calculation, if one were to ride 10,000 miles in a season at 40 mpg. one would use 250 gallons of fuel. If a gallon of high-test (0% ethanol) was $1.03 per gallon, and low-test (10% ethanol) was $0.88 per gallon, you would pay about 35 to 40 dollars a season more for premium, than you'd pay for regular.
If running premium fuel won't hurt my engine, and I might notice a bit better mileage, and I might notice a bit better performance, then I'll simply adapt to the system that's in play, and ride off into the sunset.

Fill 'er up with high-test................Dave

[HawkeyeGL1200]

If you get premium fuel for $1 a gallon, and your gallons are 17% bigger than a US gallon, I'm moving to Canada.

[Solina Dave]

If you get premium fuel for $1 a gallon, and your gallons are 17% bigger than a US gallon, I'm moving to Canada.

Sorry about that Hawkeye, maybe I wasn't clear. I converted the approximate current prices up here, and the miles per gallon figures to closer represent what you might have stateside. That $1.03 per U.S. gallon would be more like $1.24 per Imp. gallon up here. I was kind of guessing that your premium gas would be about $1.03 per gallon. Am I close?

Dave

[HawkeyeGL1200]

Premium gas is about $2.80 a gallon here, I think... haven't bought any in so long, I can't be sure. Last "regular" fill up, I paid $2.26 a US gallon. Last time I was in Canada (about 1984) I paid 87 cents a liter for gas... times must have changed a lot.

[Solina Dave]

Premium gas is about $2.80 a gallon here, I think... haven't bought any in so long, I can't be sure. Last "regular" fill up, I paid $2.26 a US gallon. Last time I was in Canada (about 1984) I paid 87 cents a liter for gas... times must have changed a lot.

Hawkeye, I have to hide my head in shame. I really messed this whole thing up. My basic idea was right but my dollar numbers were all wrong.
So, I think that I'm just going to bail out! Just for your information though, a litre of premium up here is $1.24. There's 3.8 litres in a U.S. gallon. So at that rate a U.S. gallon up here would be $4.72
Maybe I'll come and live in the states. Even with exchange I'd be way ahead at $2.80 a gallon.

Sorry about the fiasco..............Dave

[HawkeyeGL1200]

No worries, Dave. I get confused by liters, gallons US, Imperial... US dollars, Canadian dollars... ethanol, octane, horsepower, torque... the only thing I'm sure of is the older I get the less I'm sure of most things I was sure of when I was younger.

I still hate ethanol. LOL

[redial]

For those that like to pay the least, then ethanol 10% is about $0.02/litre (multiply by 3.89 for US Gallons, and 4.54 for Imperial Gallons). I always buy the full unleaded, (and currently it is around $1.27/litre), for my motorcycle and old campervan (1979 Nissan Urvan E20), and since I have got into the habit, I seek fuel places with full unleaded. Even those that have ethanol laced fuel, also sell the full unleaded as well, without having to go the Premium at $1.64/litre. The government taxes the fuel at about $0.50/litre so that is why we pay that little extra, presumably to make better roads, but in reality to keep our politicians out of other means of taxing us.

[FM-USA]

MAN-O-MAN..... I demand an itemized audit of both our governments.
SOMEone is taking more than there UnFair share.

[Wingrider44]

Very interesting topic. I too HATE ethanol for the same reasons as HawkeyeGL1200. They call it a 'renewable fuel' but without fossil fuels to 'cook' it, ethanol is unsustainable as it requires more energy to convert than it gives. Thus we have an energy loss. Whereas, when we pump oil out of the ground, the product offers more energy than it took to get it. The only question there is supply. But oil is also "renewable' in that Mother Earth continues to produce oil. At what rate? I don't think anyone really knows. Therefore, to me ethanol makes absolutely no sense. Who in their right mind would burn food to power machinery? There are alternate sources of energy for us to discover or harness. Burning food is NOT one of them. Windpower as it is used today is not viable without government help. But movement of air is definitely an energy source. As is water movement.

Ethanol at best is a way to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels in automobiles and a way to transfer wealth to Ag related business such as Cargill, ADM and Pioneer, et al. But without leaning on confiscation of monies from the citizenry (government subsidies), it would die on the vine as it is not commercially viable in a open market. I would be cautious of using ethanol blended fuels in older Goldwing motorcycles. I have a 2003 GL1800 and I avoid using it even though the manual states that up to 10% is permissable. I have been forced to use it when traveling and I've always noted a decrease in mileage. So my guide for the older bikes would be that if ethanol isn't mentioned in the Owner's Manual, avoid it. If you don't have an Owner's Manual, find it on the net. Probably even right here on GoldwingDocs.

Now about Octane ratings such as 87, 91 and 93, all commonly found at stations today. As you know, HD and Victory motorcycles want 91 Octane according to their respective Owner's Manuals. Octane as a hydrocarbon additive was used when compression ratios were higher than they are today in general. Octane prevents pre-ignition, spark knock or detonation, depending on what you want to call it. But what happens is that in high compression engines, the heat generated by compressing the air/fuel combination causes ignition before the sparkplug even fires. This causes a knocking sound and will eventually destroy an engine. Octane causes the air/fuel mixture to burn slower so that pre-ignition is halted and the ignition is caused by the sparkplug. This is not to say that HD and Victory motorcycle have very high compression engines. They aren't much higher, if any, then our GW engines. But to meet EPA standards, they have to advance the spark timing. This too can cause pre-ignition, thus the Premium fuel requirement. Since Octane slows the combustion, it has the effect of retarding the spark timing slightly. Our GW engines don't require Premium so putting in Premium fuel has the only effect of draining your wallet more quickly.

Last word, I HATE ETHANOL.