Current Consumption


Technical information and Q&A applicable to all years and models of Goldwings
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pixel288
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by pixel288 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:14 pm



Here is a common Bosch relay wiring diagram I filched from the interwebs..... The only difference between a 4 and a 5 pin is #87A.... the 4 pin doesn't have it.

Bosch 5 Pin Relay Description
Bosch 5 Pin Relay Description




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Solina Dave
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Solina Dave » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:19 pm

pixel288 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:02 pm
Does your relay have a pin 87 and 87A? If so, I would run the ACC line through the 87 so when you turn on your key to ACC you read floating battery volts. This would tell you in what condition your battery was in at rest. Then, when you fire up the relay pulls in and then you are seeing your charge system voltage on pin 87A because they coil energizes and pulls the contacts across to the charge circuit. Fuses are fine where they are, because each side is fused, and never being used at the same time. If you need to, pick up a 5 pin relay at any NAPA store, or Canadian Tire. :ugeek:

Phil
Thanks Phil, I'll have to mull that over a bit. You guys seem to move at a different rate of speed than I do. :lol:

While we're on the subject, here's a question for y'all that I've been wondering about.
The two batteries are connected in parallel, and connected to a voltmeter. What would the voltage reading be for the 12V and 24V setup? And also the 12.6V and 14.0V setup?

Sorry, there's no prize!. :D .............................Dave


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pixel288
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by pixel288 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:01 pm

Output should be 36 volts..... Problem would be how to charge it.... I think you'd be forced to separate back into 12 and 24 to charge it. 24 would fry the 12, and 12 wouldn't do anything on the 24 but maybe sulfate it. I could be wrong, Virgil and Wingadmin are the resident experts on the funky stuff. I for one wouldn't want to try it.
Phil

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Bluewaterhooker0 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:18 pm

pixel288 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:02 pm
Does your relay have a pin 87 and 87A? If so, I would run the ACC line through the 87 so when you turn on your key to ACC you read floating battery volts. This would tell you in what condition your battery was in at rest. Then, when you fire up the relay pulls in and then you are seeing your charge system voltage on pin 87A because they coil energizes and pulls the contacts across to the charge circuit. Fuses are fine where they are, because each side is fused, and never being used at the same time. If you need to, pick up a 5 pin relay at any NAPA store, or Canadian Tire. :ugeek: Phil
There has to be a fuse on the ACC terminal. That's why I say you are fusing it from 2 sources. And, the 5A standard fuse used for ACC is WAY more than the wiring most voltmeters come supplied with, from my experience. If you continue along your same plan, I would make both fuses no more than 1A each (ACC + your added circuit).

However, Phil has a great solution for you there. A SPDT relay, so that ACC position gives you unloaded battery voltage off of the ACC terminal through the NC contacts, and IGN ON gives you loaded voltage through the switched NO contacts. Great idea, Phil !

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Solina Dave » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:19 pm

pixel288 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:01 pm
Output should be 36 volts..... Problem would be how to charge it.... I think you'd be forced to separate back into 12 and 24 to charge it. 24 would fry the 12, and 12 wouldn't do anything on the 24 but maybe sulfate it. I could be wrong, Virgil and Wingadmin are the resident experts on the funky stuff. I for one wouldn't want to try it.
Phil
:lol: :lol: :lol: I have no intention of trying it, let alone charging it Phil. I was simply wondering, hypothetically speaking, what the output voltage would be in each case. Connecting the two batteries in series would give you 36 volts. But in parallel, I don't know. I was mainly wondering what the resultant voltage would be, by combining a low voltage (12.6 volts) source, with another low voltage source (14.0 volts), connected in parallel.

Dave
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Bluewaterhooker0
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Bluewaterhooker0 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:23 pm

Why would you ever connect a 24V battery in parallel with a 12V battery ?
The 24V battery will attempt to "charge" or equalize the disparity between the 2 batteries, possibly destroying both. Same as having 2 - 12V batteries in parallel, but one is weak, the other is new. The weak battery will pull down the new battery. Ask how I know.

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by thrasherg » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:39 am

Blue water is correct, do not ever connect batteries of different voltages in parallel. The op that said 36 volts would be correct if the batteries were wired in series, but the schematic shown has them in parallel and the voltage would be somewhere between 12 volts and. 24 volts, depending on the state of charge of the 2 batteries and the capacity of the batteries, either way connecting 2 batteries of different voltages in parallel will damage both batteries and probably cause the wiring to catch fire..

As stated the 24 volt battery will try to bring the 12 volt battery up to 24 volts, this will cause very high currents to be discharged from the 24v battery into the 12v battery. This will damage/kill the 12v battery and will probably cause damage to the 24v battery due to the large currents involved. In general it is a bad idea to put batteries in parallel (even batteries of the same voltage) without some kind of balancing control circuit. Putting batteries in series is much safer, but it is still a good idea to try and ensure that all the batteries are of the same voltage and capacity rating, so they require the same recharge currents and will auto balance better.

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Solina Dave » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:09 am

thrasherg wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:39 am
Blue water is correct, do not ever connect batteries of different voltages in parallel. The op that said 36 volts would be correct if the batteries were wired in series, but the schematic shown has them in parallel and the voltage would be somewhere between 12 volts and. 24 volts, depending on the state of charge of the 2 batteries and the capacity of the batteries, either way connecting 2 batteries of different voltages in parallel will damage both batteries and probably cause the wiring to catch fire..

As stated the 24 volt battery will try to bring the 12 volt battery up to 24 volts, this will cause very high currents to be discharged from the 24v battery into the 12v battery. This will damage/kill the 12v battery and will probably cause damage to the 24v battery due to the large currents involved. In general it is a bad idea to put batteries in parallel (even batteries of the same voltage) without some kind of balancing control circuit. Putting batteries in series is much safer, but it is still a good idea to try and ensure that all the batteries are of the same voltage and capacity rating, so they require the same recharge currents and will auto balance better.

Regards Gary
Thanks very much for that Gary. Believe me! I had absolutely no intention, or any need for that matter, to put this configuration into reality.
Not being familiar with electrical theory at anywhere near the level that you are obviously at, I needed an answer. I realized that connecting two, or for that matter several batteries of the same voltage in series, would result in a voltage the sum of all the batteries. I also suspected that paralleling batteries of the same voltage wouldn't necessarily be a good idea, but I wasn't sure why. And I certainly suspected that paralleling batteries of different voltages would be a bad idea, but again I wasn't sure why. Hence the question. Asked and answered. A good explanation. Thank you!

Dave
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Bluewaterhooker0 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:18 pm

I was thinking about your desire for voltage readings in a static mode as well as running mode. Since the ACC terminal is active without lights and such in the Ign. ACC position, and the ACC terminal is showing full running voltage in the Ign. ON position, It seems you could just connect your voltmeter direct to the ACC terminal and get what you want. The only question is, what is the voltage difference between the battery posts and the ACC terminal. I'm guessing it is minimal, as the battery should be supplying the FUSE/RELAY block directly. Maybe a couple 1/10's of a volt difference ? It's a lot simpler solution, and if you trigger the relay that you planned on via the lights, it may not read voltage when you actually push the start button, as the lighting circuit is killed at that time. And, it would be nice to see the actual voltage while starting.

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Solina Dave » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:07 pm

Bluewaterhooker0 wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:18 pm
I was thinking about your desire for voltage readings in a static mode as well as running mode. Since the ACC terminal is active without lights and such in the Ign. ACC position, and the ACC terminal is showing full running voltage in the Ign. ON position, It seems you could just connect your voltmeter direct to the ACC terminal and get what you want. The only question is, what is the voltage difference between the battery posts and the ACC terminal. I'm guessing it is minimal, as the battery should be supplying the FUSE/RELAY block directly. Maybe a couple 1/10's of a volt difference ? It's a lot simpler solution, and if you trigger the relay that you planned on via the lights, it may not read voltage when you actually push the start button, as the lighting circuit is killed at that time. And, it would be nice to see the actual voltage while starting.
My switch drawing skills are minimal at best, but you'll get the idea.
Based on the diagram, with the switch in the "ACC" position, one would read the battery float voltage. (Maybe 12. 7 volts). Correct? And if the switch was in the "ON" position, (which includes the accessory block), and the bike running, I would assume that the voltage would be the battery charging voltage. (maybe 14.0 volts).
Or would the circuit, with no load, through the accessory block to the voltmeter, combined with the circuit through all of the bikes load to the voltmeter, create an undesirable situation, and a funky voltage reading? :lol: It looks like it would work to me, but that may be just me......................Dave :roll: And if it does work, why did I need the relay? I forget! :?


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Re: Current Consumption

Post by pixel288 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:21 pm

When the key is in the run position, you'll be getting a 'blended' reading from both inputs. The relay gives an 'or' reading.... Either battery floating 'or' charging, not both. Accuracy is what you want so you know whether the battery is beginning to die, or the stator is beginning to die. With the blended reading, you will have to trouble shoot both to know which one; this way you know instantly where the problem lies.

Phil :)

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Solina Dave » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:26 pm

pixel288 wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:21 pm
When the key is in the run position, you'll be getting a 'blended' reading from both inputs. The relay gives an 'or' reading.... Either battery floating 'or' charging, not both. Accuracy is what you want so you know whether the battery is beginning to die, or the stator is beginning to die. With the blended reading, you will have to trouble shoot both to know which one; this way you know instantly where the problem lies.

Phil :)
Excellent! Got it! :idea: ...............Thanks Phil
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Bluewaterhooker0 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:40 pm

Seems to me, you've got the same readings directly from the ACC terminal, as described in my earlier post. Just for "jollies", why don't you take a voltage reading in BOTH modes (IGN ACC, and IGN ON and running), and see how much different those readings are when measured directly at the battery vs at the ACC terminal. If no difference, or minimal, you've got your connection point minus all the extra wiring.

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by pixel288 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:52 pm

Bluewater may be right.... I kinda like having things cut and dried... and I like playing with relays; so many neat things you can do with them! :lol:
Dave, you've given me the idea, so now I'm gonna do it for myself. This winter. With a relay. 8-)

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Solina Dave » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:18 pm

I haven't ridden for a month, and it wouldn't start today. Flat battery! Is it poosible for a fully charged battery, left for that long, with no load on the battery, to just naturally deplete to that point? I put my Genius maintenance charger on the battery, and it only indicated a 25% charge. So, it had depleted to that point in 1 month.
This happened a couple of months ago. I hadn't ridden for 1/2 a month, and the battery again, only had a 25% charge when I hooked it to the Genius. But that time, there had been a small voltmeter's load on the battery, for that 1/2 month. That was not the case this time, as I had removed that voltmeter load.
Just the battery, no load, for 1 month.

Thanks...............Dave :?:
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by MikeB » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:02 pm

What kind of testing have you done to insure that there is no load on the battery? I bet there is a load and you just don't know it.

A good battery with full charge that has no load will not go flat in 30 days.

Battery self discharge rate varies based on the chemistry type used and the temperature the battery is at: higher temperatures increase the self-discharge rate. That said, the typical self discharge rate of a lead acid battery is 5% per month.
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by pixel288 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:20 pm

Clearly there is a drain somewhere. Something is pulling power, either that, or the battery has an internal short. Plates touch, or sulfate, and short out. Either/or will kill a battery. Can you take the battery somewhere after you have charged it and get it load tested? That'll show if the battery itself is the problem. If not, then it's back to the multimeter tester and start tracing circuits.
:?

Phil

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Solina Dave » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:18 pm

I haven't done any testing Mike. I just thought that if there was nothing "on" that would do it. What load possibilities are there that aren't visible?
And Phil, I think that's what I'll do after I have it fully charged. In a way, I almost hope that it is the battery. There is that possibility. It was new right at the end of 2015, and I was also having some charging problems. I rode it all last season charging a 15.1 volts +/- 0.1 volt. I didn't think that was too high. That might be the culprit. My stator fried last November, so that was the end of last season. A new stator and rect./reg. this spring, and my charging voltage is now 14 volts all the time. Batteries are expensive! As if I'm not broke enough! :lol:

Thanks to both of you........................Dave
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by DenverWinger » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:47 am

Solina Dave wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:07 pm
Bluewaterhooker0 wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:18 pm
I was thinking about your desire for voltage readings in a static mode as well as running mode. Since the ACC terminal is active without lights and such in the Ign. ACC position, and the ACC terminal is showing full running voltage in the Ign. ON position, It seems you could just connect your voltmeter direct to the ACC terminal and get what you want. The only question is, what is the voltage difference between the battery posts and the ACC terminal. I'm guessing it is minimal, as the battery should be supplying the FUSE/RELAY block directly. Maybe a couple 1/10's of a volt difference ? It's a lot simpler solution, and if you trigger the relay that you planned on via the lights, it may not read voltage when you actually push the start button, as the lighting circuit is killed at that time. And, it would be nice to see the actual voltage while starting.
My switch drawing skills are minimal at best, but you'll get the idea.
Based on the diagram, with the switch in the "ACC" position, one would read the battery float voltage. (Maybe 12. 7 volts). Correct? And if the switch was in the "ON" position, (which includes the accessory block), and the bike running, I would assume that the voltage would be the battery charging voltage. (maybe 14.0 volts).
Or would the circuit, with no load, through the accessory block to the voltmeter, combined with the circuit through all of the bikes load to the voltmeter, create an undesirable situation, and a funky voltage reading? :lol: It looks like it would work to me, but that may be just me......................Dave :roll: And if it does work, why did I need the relay? I forget! :?

scan0002.jpg
Why don't you go back to the relay, switching power directly from the battery to the meter, and energize the relay coil from the Accessory block instead of a running light? The meter would come on both in Accessory position and Run, (not sure if Accessory block is de-energized during "Start" on a GL1000 though)
They say 98% of all Hardleys ever made are still on the road..... The other 2% made it home. :lol:
(I stole this from somebody on another GW site...) :roll:

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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Solina Dave » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:39 pm

DenverWinger wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:47 am
Why don't you go back to the relay, switching power directly from the battery to the meter, and energize the relay coil from the Accessory block instead of a running light? The meter would come on both in Accessory position and Run, (not sure if Accessory block is de-energized during "Start" on a GL1000 though)
That's how I finally wired everything, and it works fine. The ignition switch, in the "ACC" position, energizes the accessory block, which also enerizes the relay. The relay contacts close, applying a direct battery float voltage to the voltmeter. Moving the ignition switch, to the "ON" position, energizes the bike's start/run process, including of course the accessory block, which again picks up the relay, closing it's contacts, and providing battery charging voltage to the meter. I honestly don't know if the accessory block is de-energized during start-up. I'll have to look. But now it's doing what I had first wanted. Nothing of course, in the "OFF" position, battery float voltage, in the accessory position, and charging voltage, when the bike is running.

Many thanks for everyones suggestions..................Dave :D
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by Solina Dave » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:13 pm

pixel288 wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:20 pm
Clearly there is a drain somewhere. Something is pulling power, either that, or the battery has an internal short. Plates touch, or sulfate, and short out. Either/or will kill a battery. Can you take the battery somewhere after you have charged it and get it load tested? That'll show if the battery itself is the problem. If not, then it's back to the multimeter tester and start tracing circuits.
I took my fully charged battery in for testing. It passed with flying colours. 350 CCA, just as advertised.
I never have any problems with my battery going flat, as long as I don't let it sit too much. I figure I'll just ride more, and not give it a chance to go to sleep. :lol:
The gentleman who runs my local motorcycle shop, says that for sure, he's getting close to 50% more early Yuasa battery returns. He's noticed that in the past 5 years or so. I wonder if the U.S. built Yuasa battery is cutting corners to compete with the much lower priced imports?

Dave
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Re: Current Consumption

Post by MikeB » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:10 pm

Solina Dave wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:13 pm
pixel288 wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:20 pm
Clearly there is a drain somewhere. Something is pulling power, either that, or the battery has an internal short. Plates touch, or sulfate, and short out. Either/or will kill a battery. Can you take the battery somewhere after you have charged it and get it load tested? That'll show if the battery itself is the problem. If not, then it's back to the multimeter tester and start tracing circuits.
I took my fully charged battery in for testing. It passed with flying colours. 350 CCA, just as advertised.
I never have any problems with my battery going flat, as long as I don't let it sit too much. I figure I'll just ride more, and not give it a chance to go to sleep. :lol:
The gentleman who runs my local motorcycle shop, says that for sure, he's getting close to 50% more early Yuasa battery returns. He's noticed that in the past 5 years or so. I wonder if the U.S. built Yuasa battery is cutting corners to compete with the much lower priced imports?

Dave
"Assume Nothing"


MikeB
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