Filter change with every oil change?

[WingNutJC]

I thought so, until I discovered that the Minneapolis police department had trialed an every-second-filter change approach.
Basically, maintenance costs of vehicle fleets is huge.

In a nutshell, they decided on this because of the idea that as a filter traps more particles, it becomes a better filter, up to a point.
Exactly the idea pushed by K&N.

Their experiment showed a decrease in engine wear problems - ie longer mileage between teardowns - by changing oil filters only at every second oil change.
Suzuki also recommend the same for their Hyabusas.

Basically, a new oil filter allows all the big bits through (up to 20-25 microns), but as it "clogs", it traps many more of this size particle, meaning there are now far fewer of these abrasive 'bits' circulating in the oil.

So - replacing your oil filter at every oil change means you are allowing the maximum number of "big rocks" into you oil for the longest possible time.

[DaveO430]

Most manufacturers recommend that. If K&Ns oil filters are like their air filters they would allow some big chunks through, until if & when a big enough particle came along to plug the hole.

[Viking]

If a decent quality filter is used, this situation is minimized. Also, particles of 20 microns or less will not harm an engine. It is why decent quality filters aim to filtering all particles above 20 microns, which quickly diminishes when the filter picks up some dirt. If this quality of filter is used, fleets can probably get away with one filter per two oil changes, however, if the cheapest, poorest quality filters are used, one takes the chance of a filter coming apart and totally blocking oil flow. I have always changed the filter at every oil change, however, I am not as religious about when I do oil changes. I will let 10K kilometers become 12K if that is all I ride in a year. I change prior to my enforced storage due to winter. If I do get a really good year in and manage to go 25 K or so, I will have probably done three changes by the time I put her up for the season. Fleets already extend their drain intervals to at least 10 to 15K miles because they get this within their six month standards, so 30 K miles would seem a bit much to me for an oil filter. I just know that I do not purchase ex fleet vehicles for my own use. I also use 100% synthetic lubricants, and WIX or Amsoil absolute efficiency filters, and have done since 1976.

[ekvh]

An aside. Read about bypass centrifugal oil cleaners on big diesel rigs. They drive until a laboratory tells them the oil is bad. They send in a vial of “blood”. One big rig went over 100k without an oil change. Lab results showed now signs of wear.

Not sure what level of power they consume or how large they would need to be, but I can see them becoming part of any vehicle that gets regular use.

[WingAdmin]

An aside. Read about bypass centrifugal oil cleaners on big diesel rigs. They drive until a laboratory tells them the oil is bad. They send in a vial of “blood”. One big rig went over 100k without an oil change. Lab results showed now signs of wear.

Not sure what level of power they consume or how large they would need to be, but I can see them becoming part of any vehicle that gets regular use.

Motorcycles are different - and Goldwings are different than Harleys. Big rigs (or cars, or Harleys) don't use engine oil to lubricate their transmission.

When oil is used in the transmission, it is constantly being exposed to a very large surface area of constant shearing force that it would not normally see when used in an engine. The molecule chains that give the oil its lubricity are sheared and shortened, with the end result that the oil becomes less effective long before it would in an automotive application. These shortened chains will oxidize, so the lab tests for oxidation will show this - acidification, increase in viscosity, spectral analysis peak, and whatever other tests they use to test for polymer chain oxidation.

[AZgl1800]

An aside. Read about bypass centrifugal oil cleaners on big diesel rigs. They drive until a laboratory tells them the oil is bad. They send in a vial of “blood”. One big rig went over 100k without an oil change. Lab results showed now signs of wear.

Not sure what level of power they consume or how large they would need to be, but I can see them becoming part of any vehicle that gets regular use.

Motorcycles are different - and Goldwings are different than Harleys. Big rigs (or cars, or Harleys) don't use engine oil to lubricate their transmission.

When oil is used in the transmission, it is constantly being exposed to a very large surface area of constant shearing force that it would not normally see when used in an engine. The molecule chains that give the oil its lubricity are sheared and shortened, with the end result that the oil becomes less effective long before it would in an automotive application. These shortened chains will oxidize, so the lab tests for oxidation will show this - acidification, increase in viscosity, spectral analysis peak, and whatever other tests they use to test for polymer chain oxidation.

you can get proof of this by sending off a sample of your oil to Blackstone Laboratories...

see this example for my car which I "accidentally overlooked" getting it changed on schedule due to my wife being in hospital and my daughter and I running that car back and forth to the hospital every day for a year..... note this is at 15,200ish miles.

In this particular case, the oil turned out to be Valvoline full synthetic even though "I thought it was Mobil-1".... those folks are good... you can't get anything past them.

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[minimac]

Why would you want to run fresh oil through a dirty filter? That makes no sense at all. To save $5-$7 more at every oil change? As the filter "clogs" it will become much less efficient. I'll stick to changing my filter at each oil change, thank you.

[Tck2008]

As shown by the post above,the modern oils (synthetics) generally outlast there recommended change intervals. Having been an aircraft mechanic in a previous life, testing of oils was quite common and oil changes were not as often as one would believe neccesary. I'm not a believer that a partially clogged filter is good for my machine. Best to use synthetics and change the filter at the same time. As for the clutching wear and tear on the oil, I think maybe an article from a oil lab expert of sorts would be an interesting read on Goldwing Docs....Oh and I might have to start selling my old oil filters in the classifieds

[dparkeralice]

Well, Honda recommends that oil filters only need to be changed every other time for normal duty service on Honda cars. That's a fact, check the owner's manual on any Honda car. Only "severe" service requires a filter every time.

I would guess that Honda is probably definitive about this in the motorcycle owner's manual.

[steve29si]

Surprised no one mentioned the reasons manufacture's once recommend filters be changed every other oil change and why that has changed.

First off, you should never fill a new oil filter with oil because of the possibility of introducing dirt into the clean side of the filter. Doing so will send the dirt directly to the crank and rod bearings. Of course if you leave a properly functioning filter in place you avoid the dry start that occurs for a few seconds while a new filter fills with oil, but you eliminate the possibility of introducing dirt into the clean side of the filter.

As for not getting all the dirty oil out of the engine, clearly that oil is still doing its' job, otherwise the engine would show signs of excessive wear/damage. So, unless you are doing a tear down, some of the old oil is going to remain to be mixed with new oil and it isn't going to do any measurable harm. Imaginary problem, solved!

The actual number of hours/miles you can put on an engine between oil changes is much greater then most of you are guessing, but for those that actually follow manufacture's recommendations, with today's clean burning engines, using the best lubricants, under most circumstances the oil will outlast the filter. Therefore, before the filter's estimated life expectancy has been reached, manufacture's recommend a filter and oil change.

So, for those that insist in using lower quality oil and over servicing, changing filters every other oil change is a good strategy. However, should you choose to use lubricants that exceed manufacture's recommendations you can save money and effort by extending oil changes, but realize that the filter must also be changed.

Your choice, but most of us are not going to wear out Wings.

[AZgl1800]

The actual number of hours/miles you can put on an engine between oil changes is much greater then most of you are guessing, but for those that actually follow manufacture's recommendations, with today's clean burning engines, using the best lubricants, under most circumstances the oil will outlast the filter.

Your choice, but most of us are not going to wear out Wings.

That is proven in the truck and railroad industries over and over.... they change out the filters and run the oil with 'make up oil' to keep the level correct. Oil Analysis once in a while to be sure all is well.

as I mentioned a long bit ago, I goofed last year because my wife was in the hospital for almost six months and I overlooked getting the car taken care of. I just drove it everyday to/from the hospital and ran it almost 16,000 before my brain clicked and had it changed, here is the oil report on that.



While not recommended, the oil was still obviously doing what it is supposed to do, even at 16,000 miles.


I once had a friend years ago, who motto was "never spend a dime on this car".
He would watch the auctions, or the local sales lots, and find a "darned good car" for $500.

And other than gasoline, that was the last dime he ever spent on a car. This was in Phoenix, AZ where windshield wipers weren't needed LOL....

If a tire blew out, he left the car there, and bought a new one. but he said tires rarely blow out for him, he just buys a used one for $5 and puts it on a wheel and throws that in the trunk.... if the car breaks down and won't run, he gets a ride home and looks for a 'new car'. he never changed oil, and he said not one motor ever locked up on him... he did watch the oil level, he was not stupid.... a quart once in a while did not break the bank.

[WingAdmin]

Surprised no one mentioned the reasons manufacture's once recommend filters be changed every other oil change and why that has changed.

First off, you should never fill a new oil filter with oil because of the possibility of introducing dirt into the clean side of the filter. Doing so will send the dirt directly to the crank and rod bearings. Of course if you leave a properly functioning filter in place you avoid the dry start that occurs for a few seconds while a new filter fills with oil, but you eliminate the possibility of introducing dirt into the clean side of the filter.

The "dry start" is why, when my bike has been sitting for any amount of time, or after an oil change, I will leave the engine unchoked, and crank the engine for 10-15 seconds, maybe twice (letting the battery rest in between).

What does this do? Starts moving oil through the engine, but without the tremendous load of the power stroke, because the cylinders never actually light off. So no crushing force of crankshaft against bearing without sufficient oil.

[AZgl1800]

Most of us warm up the engine before we drain the oil.....

the 15 minutes it takes to change the oil is not going to have any dry cam or rod bearing surfaces.

I never worry about that at all, just touch the start button and let it idle.

The oil pressure gauge is up in about 5 seconds.

[WingNutJC]

Surprised no one mentioned the reasons manufacture's once recommend filters be changed every other oil change and why that has changed.

First off, you should never fill a new oil filter with oil because of the possibility of introducing dirt into the clean side of the filter. Doing so will send the dirt directly to the crank and rod bearings.

Of course if you leave a properly functioning filter in place you avoid the dry start that occurs for a few seconds while a new filter fills with oil, but you eliminate the possibility of introducing dirt into the clean side of the filter.

Surprised no one mentioned the reasons manufacture's once recommend filters be changed every other oil change and why that has changed.

It hasn't changed. Eg, Suzuki recommends this be done with the Hyabusa. There are plenty of high mileage Hyabusa's around.

First off, you should never fill a new oil filter with oil because of the possibility of introducing dirt into the clean side of the filter. Doing so will send the dirt directly to the crank and rod bearings.

Under what conditions are you changing your filter? In a sandstorm?
On a clean bench, with clean hands, a new filter and new oil .... where is this dirt going to come from?

When you start your engine there will be several seconds of metal-metal contact, under combustion loading, in the main and big end bearings. This produces metal particles, some of which are too small to be trapped by the filter and will continue to circulate and cause more damage by puncturing the oil film in those same bearings.

Of course if you leave a properly functioning filter in place you avoid the dry start that occurs for a few seconds while a new filter fills with oil, but you eliminate the possibility of introducing dirt into the clean side of the filter.


If you're not changing the filter in the middle of a sandstorm, I'm at a loss to understand what dirt could possibly be introduced from a clean bench that would be worse than metal particles and scored bearings.

[WingNutJC]

That is proven in the truck and railroad industries over and over.... they change out the filters and run the oil with 'make up oil' to keep the level correct. Oil Analysis once in a while to be sure all is well.

as I mentioned a long bit ago, I goofed last year because my wife was in the hospital for almost six months and I overlooked getting the car taken care of. I just drove it everyday to/from the hospital and ran it almost 16,000 before my brain clicked and had it changed, here is the oil report on that.



While not recommended, the oil was still obviously doing what it is supposed to do, even at 16,000 miles.

"That is proven in the truck and railroad industries over and over.... they change out the filters and run the oil with 'make up oil' to keep the level correct. Oil Analysis once in a while to be sure all is well.

As I mentioned a long bit ago, I goofed last year because my wife was in the hospital for almost six months and I overlooked getting the car taken care of. I just drove it everyday to/from the hospital and ran it almost 16,000 before my brain clicked and had it changed, here is the oil report on that.

While not recommended, the oil was still obviously doing what it is supposed to do, even at 16,000 miles"

Hey John. Great post.

May I correct one point only: big companys do regular, not occasional, Used Oil Analysis on all their vehicles. It's too expensive not to.
Your experience should really open many ppl's eyes re modern oil/engine performance.
For me, the most telling is the very relaxed assessment given by the UoA guys.

I became involved in lubrication issues (tsk tsk U know what I mean) 18 years ago, when I bought my Porsche 928.
Shortly after that I purchased a courier transport business.

I fitted one van with a bypass filter system. This filtered 95% of 10 micron+ particles, and 50% of remaining 5 micron+ particles.

Over time, I needed to change the "fine filter" less and less frequently, for the simple reason that the engine was making fewer and fewer wear particles.
Why? Because bearing surfaces were becoming smoother c/- fewer circulating particles puncturing the oil film, leading in turn to fewer wear particles being produced ... which in turn leads to fewer ... ... oh wait ... we've been here before ... I think.

Eventually, I was changing the bypass filter at 15,000 miles, instead of 4,000.
UoA said my oil was still good at 25,000 miles, but I only changed it 'cos I felt guilty. LOL

Sold the van at 250,000 miles. Full compression. No smoke. No oil leaks.

UoA's always showed wear metal levels at about 10% or less, of industry average for these vehicles. (Mitsubishi 2.4L EFI) (Pocket Rockets actually. )

Over the years I've attempted to explain this to others, but in 999 of 1000 cases, I saw eyes glazing over. Can't understand. Don't want to understand? Who would know? Must be my technique, although they all seemed to agree with my idea that stepping off a tall building would not end well.

Then I heard this adage:

"Don't give Advice.
The Wise don't need it.
The Stupid won't heed it".

[AZgl1800]

Ha ha on the advice.

my son installed a bypass oil filter on his 96 Dodge diesel pickup.

[WingAdmin]

I became involved in lubrication issues (tsk tsk U know what I mean) 18 years ago, when I bought my Porsche 928.
Shortly after that I purchased a courier transport business.

Just a little bit longer than 18 years ago, I lived with a guy who had a 1991 928 GT, one of the last made. It was a 5 speed, he kept it under a cover in the garage, and drove it sparingly, so it had extremely low miles on it. He let me drive it once. What a car! A few years ago he contacted me, he was thinking about selling it, and wanted to know if I was interested. Still very low miles on it...but I remember looking at that crammed engine bay, thinking "how do you even fit tools in there to do work?" Plus the cost of Por$che parts...no thanks. He still has it, as far as I know.

928

That's my XT6 in the background, another weird, but fun car that I would probably buy again, given the chance. Got hit by a truck. Replaced it with a 1991 MR2 Turbo, that I would buy again in a SECOND, but they are all long-gone or wrung-out and worn out.

[Bluewaterhooker0]

I read a motorcycle specific article regarding oil grades and changes not too long ago. It was interesting, in that they had run pretty extensive tests on oil used in motorcycles. Various grades of viscosity, quality, traditional, synthetic, etc. They did oil analysis on their comparisons. I wish I could find the article, but apparently I did not save it. Anyway, I forget all the specific details, but the upshot and my take-away was to use synthetic oil, and high quality oil filters. The most interesting aspect to me, was their tests on motorcycles with standard traditional oil, and how incredibly quickly those oils were degraded and viscosities destroyed, due to the shearing forces when the oil shares a wet clutch in the engine. I mean, they found that the oil was severely degraded after only 500-1000 miles of run time. So, if you were going 3000 or 5000 miles between changes, using standard non-synthetic oil, after only as little as 1000 miles or less you were not driving with the same oil you put in at the change. The viscosity and the additive packages were literally torn apart by the wet clutches on the bikes. My conclusion was to continue as I have been doing since I took ownership of this bike, and stick with synthetic oil and the best oil filters I can find. I know that on bikes I owned many years ago, I could FEEL the difference an oil change made on the engine and shifting of the transmission. And, I could feel it getting degraded over a fairly short period of time, between changes. This was before synthetics, or my knowledge of them, using traditional 30W oil, as was called for back then. My personal experience seems to have verified what this article claimed.

[AZgl1800]

I read a motorcycle specific article regarding oil grades and changes not too long ago. It was interesting, in that they had run pretty extensive tests on oil used in motorcycles. Various grades of viscosity, quality, traditional, synthetic, etc. They did oil analysis on their comparisons. I wish I could find the article, but apparently I did not save it. Anyway, I forget all the specific details, but the upshot and my take-away was to use synthetic oil, and high quality oil filters. The most interesting aspect to me, was their tests on motorcycles with standard traditional oil, and how incredibly quickly those oils were degraded and viscosities destroyed, due to the shearing forces when the oil shares a wet clutch in the engine. I mean, they found that the oil was severely degraded after only 500-1000 miles of run time. So, if you were going 3000 or 5000 miles between changes, using standard non-synthetic oil, after only as little as 1000 miles or less you were not driving with the same oil you put in at the change. The viscosity and the additive packages were literally torn apart by the wet clutches on the bikes. My conclusion was to continue as I have been doing since I took ownership of this bike, and stick with synthetic oil and the best oil filters I can find. I know that on bikes I owned many years ago, I could FEEL the difference an oil change made on the engine and shifting of the transmission. And, I could feel it getting degraded over a fairly short period of time, between changes. This was before synthetics, or my knowledge of them, using traditional 30W oil, as was called for back then. My personal experience seems to have verified what this article claimed.

was this it?

not this one, I think it was on gl1800 riders

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... t-ranking/

here
http://gl1800riders.com/forums/13-maint ... ion=thread


and here are bookmarks I have

Oil Analysis results


http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthre ... l-Analysis


http://widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html


http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthre ... aso-MA-oil


https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... t-ranking/

[minimac]

I will continue to change oil AND filter. I not going to spend the time and money to get an oil analysis, when for a lot less, I can change the quality filter when I change the oil, and KNOW I'm good to go. Even though I use synthetics, I change every 5K miles at the most. Am I wasting a few dollars? Maybe, but how much is peace of mind worth? My 25 year old 'Wing still purrs like a kitten, is as smooth as when it rolled out of the showroom, and will go like stink when I get on it. And still deliver 40+/- mpg-even with crap gas, which I avoid if at all possible.

[WingAdmin]

I will continue to change oil AND filter. I not going to spend the time and money to get an oil analysis, when for a lot less, I can change the quality filter when I change the oil, and KNOW I'm good to go. Even though I use synthetics, I change every 5K miles at the most. Am I wasting a few dollars? Maybe, but how much is peace of mind worth? My 25 year old 'Wing still purrs like a kitten, is as smooth as when it rolled out of the showroom, and will go like stink when I get on it. And still deliver 40+/- mpg-even with crap gas, which I avoid if at all possible.

The point behind oil analysis is not to tell you if you're changing your oil often enough, it's to let you know of potential problems with your engine before they become catastrophic. It's commonly done in aircraft engines with every oil change. If they suddenly detect a spike of metal of a type that corresponds with, say, bearing faces, and that spike wasn't in the previous analysis, then you have a fairly good indication of a pending crank bearing failure. That sort of thing.

[paladin]

Maybe its the aircraft engineer in me but I cut my filters open when I change the oil. The purpose of the filter is to filter out metal and other contaminants that could cause harm downstream. I cut the filter open and spread out the filter media to see if there is any metal or contamination. on my last bike I had all kinds of debris in the filter. close inspection revealed it was clutch plate material. Removal of the clutch confirmed that one disk had disintigrated friction material. Replaced the clutch discs and all was well after that. This is just a habit. if you dont know what the filter is catching then what good is it as a diagnostic tool?

[gervais]

well
" Oil Analysis" we were doing this on Diesel; Engine so we would have a report on the "state" of the engine and it was accurate.

i will never understand how you can save money on filter,,never.

Filters are there to catch contaminant,metal parts,,and they can become clogged a LOT .

Maybe some are doing this because of the engine are built so tight that they last longer,,they are using 5w20 because of that but i will not use this grade in motorcycle engine,,never.

Good luck with your "supposed to be money saving" used oil filter.

Gervais

[AZgl1800]

Maybe some are doing this because of the engine are built so tight that they last longer,,they are using 5w20 because of that but i will not use this grade in motorcycle engine,,never.
Gervais

I think 20W on the high end of the weight range would be a bit too thin for our Goldwings, but, my old employer runs only 5w20 in the entire city wide fleet of cars and pickup trucks. The have had no oil lubrication problems at all since they started that program over 20 years ago..... when the car manufacturers came out the the warning that use of oil other than 5w20 would void engine warranties, the City of Phoenix maintenance division removed all lube oils that were not that grade.

Their fleet at that the time I learned of this about 2005, they still had vehicles dating back to the early 1980s..... City budgets are thin, vehicles are never replaced until the maintenance costs exceeds the cost of replacing it. Those old engines were spec'd for 10w30 or just straight 30.... but they all survived on 5w20 just fine.

I am using 5w40 in my '02 1800.... but for a specific reason, the potential of the ADG to shear at startup is a possibility. So, I chose to reduce the startup load on the ADG.

Elsewhere, I have mentioned that in my 2007 Pontiac Vibe, the oil is changed annually at approximately 8,000-12,000 miles.... the car has only has had 5w20 full synthetic in it.
a recent oil lube analysis test showed that it was doing quite well, with no negative comments at all from Blackwell Labs.

[pumpkinhead10a]

years ago that was the norm..filter changed every second changed...when I worked at the garage station many moons ago....