Pellets for ABS repairs

[Corkster52]

I am curious more than anything, since I continue to find (or create) more ABS cracks/holes than I ever thought I would. has anyone used ABS pellets (along with ABS glue) for gouged out cracks in their fairing?

Something like these https://www.google.com/search?q=ABS+bla ... ZFuECRoYM:

[WingAdmin]

I've used these ABS pellets and ABS cement/MEK to make slurry - the smaller the better (you want lots of surface area, so they melt quickly). I then use that to do any fill/repairs I'm working on. It works great.

https://www.amazon.com/Ballyhoo-Plastic ... ef=sr_1_20

[Corkster52]

Thanks Scott. I've got them ordered. I was going to make shavings as you have mentioned making and using in the past, but I was hoping there was a less time-consuming way. I still wish there was a way to make the final ABS surface smoother. I don't remember it having all the bubbles years ago when we were sharing back and forth. I'm assuming that it's from the MEK vaporizing. Do you have the same issues?

[WingAdmin]

Thanks Scott. I've got them ordered. I was going to make shavings as you have mentioned making and using in the past, but I was hoping there was a less time-consuming way. I still wish there was a way to make the final ABS surface smoother. I don't remember it having all the bubbles years ago when we were sharing back and forth. I'm assuming that it's from the MEK vaporizing. Do you have the same issues?

I've never had an issue with bubbles. I always would just put a big drill bit in my drill press and drill holes in flattened ABS pipe. The bits of drilled out plastic are very thin and melt very quickly.

I use Oatey ABS glue, and add a bit of MEK to thin it out slightly. I start with the shavings in a jar, add the glue, stir, and then add more glue or shavings as needed to get the required consistency.

[Rambozo]

Another handy source is you can use bits of ABS filament from your 3D printer. Some even have carbon fiber reinforcement pre-blended in.

[Corkster52]

I've never had an issue with bubbles. I always would just put a big drill bit in my drill press and drill holes in flattened ABS pipe. The bits of drilled out plastic are very thin and melt very quickly.

Hmmm...no problem with bubbles. I'm wondering if something has gone bad with my Oatey glue. I have like 3 cans around. I just add some MEK when it starts to get lumpy. I think you did make mention some time ago about shaking it will make bubbles, but I only stir mine.

[Corkster52]

I've never had an issue with bubbles.

Here is what I am talking about.

[Corkster52]

Took my Dremel and ground them all out again, but am reluctant to put more ABS glue back in until I find out what the heck is going on. I did receive the tiny ABS pellets yesterday.

[extremeodd]

I would be careful with those 'abs' pellets as they are likely not ABS or are a blend of plastics.

ABS requires about 221f to reach its glass transition point where it goes from a relatively brittle "glassy" state to a more rubbery state. Whereas those pellets hit their transition point around 150f and once in that state will maintain it into the low 100s.

The biggest selling point of those 'polymorph' plastics is that you can simply put them in hot water to create a soft, workable plastic putty that will harden once cool and is infinitely reusable. One huge downside is the really low melting temperature, there are many places on a motorcycle that will occasionally experience temperatures in that range.

You can get a larger tub of the base plastic those black pellets are meant to be used with at the link below. That little bag of black pellets is enough to dye most if not all of this tub.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M1HWJQI/?tag=goldwingdocs-20
Sorry to nerd out, just got a GW yesterday and just after making an account I saw this thread. Figured I could chime in as I've worked with this polymorph stuff more than any reasonable person should.

[Corkster52]

I would be careful with those 'abs' pellets as they are likely not ABS or are a blend of plastics.

Very interesting, but if it will bond to the ABS trunk material, and get rid of the bubbling issue I am having, I'm willing to use it. I went to the polyplastics.com website and, without becoming a member, I can't drill down to the exact composition of the stuff I received. Will the Polyshape Polymorph hand moldable plastic 16oz tub [plastimake, thermoplastic] that is referenced in the link you attached make a strong bond to ABS?

I have picked WingAdmin's brain over the years as I have worked more than I really should have had to in making ABS repairs on my bikes and his recommendations, which I am sure has been after many successful applications, have worked every time.

I also went to Oatey's website and sent them an email describing what might be going on with my most recent failures at repairing cracks.

I also kept looking and I wonder if this stuff might do the trick? https://www.techkits.com/products/resin-absblk/

[extremeodd]

I've never tried to use it in a slurry but if the fairings on the 85 'wings are ABS, I'll test on mine real quick to see if the basic 'molten' form of this polymorph will adhere to it. If wingadmin has had luck using an MEK slurry, I'd stick with that technique as it probably allows the plastic you are it applying to to melt some which would allow for excellent adhesion.

I know whatever the black plastic that my bicycle seat is made out of has no luck with having the polymorph adhere to it even after melting both surfaces beforehand with heat. I'll update this post in 5-10 mins after a quick test.

EDIT: On my 85, there are 2 holes that were drilled to the right of the right pocket. The black plastic (probably abs?). I melted some of the polymorph to a sillyputty consistency and with the ABS cold, there was no adhesion whatsoever. However, when I took my propane torch (heat gun would be better) and on a low setting I flashed it across the hole a couple times to make the surface molten and when I pressed then smeared the glob across (like I was using a wood filler pencil) the polymorph stuck like crazy to the molten spot. Before it cooled I half-assed used my finger to mostly smooth out the surface then I grabbed an icecube to finish hardening everything quickly. After it was cold and hard, I was unable to get ANY of the polymorph to budge and no bubbling appeared because nothing had to evaporate.

When you do this you have several mins to adjust how the polymorph looks and later on you can always heat it up with a lighter or a heat gun to readjust, press a textured pattern into it, etc.

[Corkster52]

Maybe we are not talking apples and apples. For the glue I am using, to completely harden, it
takes up to 24 hours.

[extremeodd]

I've edited my previous post with my findings.

I'm not talking about any kind of adhesive or solvents, I was simply talking only about the pellets you purchased and the product they are intended to be melted into which is a low temperature meltable plastic.

After a quick test, I'd be willing to use the polymorph in it's standard 'molten' state (heated above 150f) to repair any cracks/small holes in the fairing since if you melt the abs you are trying to repair (quick flash of the torch) it adheres extremely well. It also remains somewhat flexible (never soft, but it will never shatter) which would help with any stress crack prone areas in my opinion.

Any large gaps over 1in I wouldn't trust it as if it EVER experiences heat over 150f, it will soften and shift. With small holes and cracks that shouldn't be an issue but if it's spanning any form of a gap there is chance of it sagging when heated. Considering you can repair, sand, and paint within 10-20 mins if you use some ice to speed up the cooling process, it's kind of a neat product.

With that said, it's properties probably change somewhat when melted into a MEK slurry with ABS added and anything I've said isn't valid in that situation.

[DenverWinger]

I've been following this thread with interest.... Not to hijack it, but rather to add to it. This follows right along with bubbles in the ABS!

I've been working on "repairing" the trunk lid on my 1500. The previous owner had mounted a luggage rack to the lid with no particular "underside support" resulting in the mount points toward the rear if the lid being "depressed" downward by about 1/8" and cracks in the ABS. On removing the rack, the depressions remained.

So I've been following the steps in this "how to" post below with some added steps of my own in an attempt to "repair" the depressions.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=690

Rather than using ABS pipe I have some 12x24 ABS sheets from Amazon, one 1/16" thick and the other 1/4" thick.

For the initial repairs I used a heat gun on the trunk lid in the depressed areas to soften the ABS and then pressed the depression outward using a shop rag against a backing of a piece of wood with several layers of shop rags on it. Took a few attempts but I finally got the depressions worked out pretty flat. This left the ABS brittle and crumbly in the areas of the mount holes so I cut out a 4" Square patch from the 1/16" ABS sheet. Using the Oatey ABS/MEK cement I glued down this patch and left it for a few days. Before I made this patch I noted a certain amount of paint overspray on the inside of the trunk lid so I used one of those round wire brush things chucked into electric drill to remove the paint and rough up the inside of the lid some.

Returning to the project a couple days later I cut two appropriate sized support pieces (roughly 12" x 6") from the 1/4" ABS sheet. These pieces were heated in 300 degree oven (don't tell GF) until they were nice and flexible, laying on a sheet of pegboard so I could carry them back to the garage without "wilting". Laid them on the underside of the trunk lid and formed them into shape, allowed to cool.

I drilled numerous holes in another piece of the 1/4" ABS sheet, collected the drill shavings and broke them into little pieces to make slurry with the Oatey cement. Mixed this up to a fairly thick consistency with an acid brush and moving quickly because it was already starting to dry I slathered the slurry onto the pre-formed ABS sheet and on the underside of the trunk lid, then put the sheet into place, laid a few shop rags on it and weighted down with a brick. Left it overnight.

To my utter dismay the next day I find a huge blister in the paint on the outside surface of the lid about the size of a nickel, midway between the mount points of the luggage rack and away from the previously placed 4x4 patch, away from the areas previously heated to flatten them. I poked a tiny hole in the blister with a pin, hoping it would go back flat. It didn't, and pushing down on the paint blister, it feels like there's a "void" in the trunk lid there.

I am at a loss as to what could have caused this, I am certain I used the correct cement, the Oatey can specifically states MEK and ABS plastic are the primary contents. I know I painted the already-drying slurry on kinda thick but I never imagined it would dissolve completely thru the trunk lid in just that point and create a big gas bubble in the paint layer! The slurry was spread fairly evenly, there were no big globs of it on either the support piece or the inside of the trunk lid. I am certain I didn't wire brush anywhere on the inside of the trunk lid enough to decrease its thickness....

So understandably I am very hesitant to add the support piece to the other side, I'm going to wind up with a trunk lid looking worse than it did before I started this project!

Ideas - thoughts?

[Rambozo]

My guess is the MEK fumes got through something and lifted the paint.

I had the same trunk/rack issue. I knew I wasn't going to do any paint for some time, so after removing the rack, I used some stainless carriage bolts through the top of the trunk, then backed that up with large fender washers to help push everything back into place, and finally some acorn nuts just so so sharp edges. After a few months the trunk looks pretty straight and the cracks are not really noticeable. What I do notice is the sun fading shadows from the rack bars.

[raven41951]

I've been out of the Plastics Industry for about 15 years but I do remember a few things and offer some to help you all understand what is happening with the ABS.

ABS is a blend of Acrylonitrile (for strength), Butadiene (Rubber for flexibility and impact resistance) and Styrene (to reduce cost). It has a softening point of about 220F and a melting point around 375F and a glass transition point of about -10F. It is a thermoplastic material, meaning it can be heated and formed repeatedly (unlike a thermoset which once "heat-cured" retains that shape forever). Its most common use is for refrigerator liners but my exposure to it was in the single use area, mainly for dairy packaging where stress crack resistance was a prime requisite (sour cream does a number on styrene). Its also very nasty (and toxic) when ignited.

In order to be formed it needs to be heated to about 350F, formed then quickly quenched to retain its shape. When used in a slurry like discussed here, all the MEK (most common agent) must evaporate until the ABS will retain its shape. In other words, it needs to be held in position until dry.

I would recommend using pellets rather than shavings, but shavings will suffice for small jobs. The reason being that it is a polymer (many parts). An ABS chain will have a molecular weight of 300,000-400,000, that number being the length of chain rather than the actual weight of the combined molecules. Every time it is processed by melting, grinding or just drilling the chain length is decreased with a corresponding decrease in physical properties.

The pellets you buy are probably reprocessed from a previously use. That doesn't make them bad, just used and not as strong as fresh (we call it virgin) material.

So what's the best method, All those discussed here (MEK slurry and or heat). Trial and error will make you more proficient. If you plan to use heat be careful of using it with a slurry, an open flame will yield disasterous results usually involving a trip to the hospital or clinic. When using heat, as noted, heat BOTH parts for optimal results and remember to keep the part supported until cooled down below 150F.

Hope this helps in some way.

[extremeodd]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonit ... ne_styrene

Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) (chemical formula (C8H8)x·​(C4H6)y·​(C3H3N)z) is a common thermoplastic polymer. Its glass transition temperature is approximately 105 °C (221 °F).[2] ABS is amorphous and therefore has no true melting point.

Your numbers are on point but you have the terms slightly confused.

I should clarify since my posts weren't super clear: The plastic that I was talking about is NOT ABS, it is Polycaprolactone

It was an attempt to help inform Corkster52 and WingAdmin that by using those pellets as ABS could cause problems, as it's properties, have some drastic differences compared to ABS.

Polycaprolactone (PCL) is a biodegradable polyester with a low melting point of around 60 °C and a glass transition temperature of about −60 °C.

PCL has many applications in the hobbyist market where it is known as Plastimake, NiftyFix, Protoplastic, InstaMorph, Polymorph, Shapelock, ReMoldables, Plastdude or TechTack. It has physical properties of a very tough, nylon-like plastic that softens to a putty-like consistency at only 60 °C, easily achieved by immersing in hot water.[7] PCL's specific heat and conductivity are low enough that it is not hard to handle by hand at this temperature. This makes it ideal for small-scale modeling, part fabrication, repair of plastic objects, and rapid prototyping where heat resistance is not needed. Though softened PCL readily sticks to many other plastics when at higher temperature, if the surface is cooled, the stickiness can be minimized while still leaving the mass pliable.

When I describe using a torch to heat the repair spot, this is in the context of using PCL and honestly, I did that for a quick test. Never use a torch of any sort to do ABS repairs, while it will get the surface gooey enough to do a repair with PCL, it'll also burn the plastic some while doing so which degrades it and produces very toxic fumes. Not to mention that molten plastic can be a terrible burn hazard since it tends to stick quite viciously.

If you check out the link below you can see the two materials compared by their various properties. ABS is the top value in each comparison.
https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/Acry ... actone-PCL

With all of this said, Polymorph, Polly Plastic, etc have their uses for small repairs like the one mentioned in this thread. For gouges, surface cracks, and screwholes, this material, in my opinion, would beat out ABS nearly every single time. There are no dangerous solvents or toxic adhesives that are needed to use it and you could patch, sand, prime, and paint a repair in 20 mins VS minimum 24 hours for ABS slurry to dry.

1: Toss a handful of pellets into a cup of near-boiling water (along with any dye pellets. Its always cheaper to use the 'white' base with some coloring pellets, a little color goes a long way. Carbon can also be used to dye the plastic black along with basically any other powdered dye/colorant)
2: Use a heat gun to melt the surface of the area you want to repair NOTE: Having the surface of the ABS melted/gooey is key. Polymorph WILL NOT stick to cold ABS EVER.
3: Remove the now melted polymorph from the water. It will start out extremely soft like hot silly putty but as it cools it will become stiffer, try to apply it before it cools down too much. If it does cool down too much, simply reheat it. It can be reheated/reused an infinite number of times.
3.5: Ensure the ABS you are about to repair has it's surface melted/gooey
4: Press/smear the polymorph into the crack/hole you are trying to repair ensuring you get it in as deeply as possible.
5: Remove any excess material once you are confident the spot is filled in and smooth out the repair with your finger (or any object that has been warmed up to about 100f, otherwise it'll harden on contact)r as it cools (be mindful of the hot ABS, it WILL hurt).
6: Once fully cooled go ahead and sand/paint to your hearts content.

If you need to adjust the filler at all, just hit it with a heat gun (not for as long as the ABS, you should be able to manipulate it with your bare hands).

Again, PCL would only be good for fairly small repairs. It would never be good for stuff like reenforcing luggage racks or spanning large gaps (unless used very thick) because it is not as strong as ABS and compared to ABS is far more flexible. It'll stretch up to 300% before breaking where ABS only stretch up to 50%.

If you decide to use PCL in a slurry with ABS, take heed that the resulting product will more than likely behave somewhat differently compared to a pure ABS/MEK slurry.

This doesn't invalidate ANYTHING said by raven41951, I just wanted to add to the discussion and clarify a few things about PCL plastics.

[saganaga]

I didn't use ABS pellets, but I used an ABS sheet of plastic from Amazon (cheapest I found), mixed with MEK. Shaved it into slivers and threw it into a jar from the recycling bin (with lid), mixed with some ABS paste.

Took a few days to dissolve, but the result was good for ABS repair.

[Corkster52]

I was hoping this topic would draw a few (what I fondly refer to as) atom-splitters. Very interesting feedback, but I am still able to resolve the "bubbles" issue...but I did make some headway. I mixed up an old pill bottle with Oatey glue, MEK and some of the pellets that I had received. While doing so I did recall that the thickness of the glue that I was putting on in the past was pretty thick and the surface would "skin over" within less than 30 minutes. I was wondering if maybe, because of the skinning, the MEK was not allowed to evaporate like it should, so I made the mixture pretty runny. As WingAdmin mentioned earlier, the smaller the pellets the better and boy was that a true statement! I really didn't care how pretty it was initially as I have gotten pretty darned handy with my Dremel and an assortment of 100 or so bits. Attached are a few photos. As I ground off the bumps there were still some bubbles but very tiny by comparison.

[raven41951]

That's what I get for making an assumption (that it was ABS). I should have realized a different material was involved. Guess the older age is slowing me down.

When using dissimilar materials its common to use a third, usually a rubber (butadiene), as a bonding agent, blended in. We developed such a material many moons ago but it has no practical use in this case. It was to enhance the heat distortion properties of polystyrene for use in higher temperature situations and was successful, but limited in applications.

[JohnUSA]

I've never had an issue with bubbles.

Here is what I am talking about.

48887693367_e174c34216_k.jpg

Why couldn't you just squeegee some ABS glue into those holes? Like, a little bit on your finger tip and wipe it in.

[Corkster52]

Why couldn' you just squeegee some ABS glue into those holes? Like, a little bit on your finger tip and wipe it in.

It's not so much about filling the holes as much as assuming that the bubbles, whether they are on the surface or throughout the depth of the glue, offer no strength to the repaired crack. Believing the trunk lid flexes a bit, where it be during the opening and closing or as I ride, I want the bond between the new glue and the and the trunk's ABS to be as strong as possible.

[pidjones]

Last winter I took on a '79 CB750F project. I wanted it to be a "rat bike", and boy did I pick the right platform! This poor bike had been beaten and banged and then left in a fence row since 1999. Along with the many environmental and PO issues that needed correction, the "whale tail" rear seat fairing was missing the supporting underneath part and instead had been packed with 3 lbs of Bondo!

I went to my local Honda service department and asked them to save me some take-off plastic from a wreck repair. Two weeks later, I stopped back in and they had almost the entire right side of a 2014 GL1800 for me! Using one of those reciprocating multi-tools that Harbor Freight sells, I cut pieces to match the cardboard mock-up I had prepared (CAD - cardboard aided design) and glued them together with Oatley ABS plumbing cement (from Amazon, as ABS is no longer used around here for plumbing).

Now, it wasn't pretty because the plan was rat bike. But, after a quick shot of rattle-can flat back it looked great! Very solid and gave the existing top part good support. I saved the rest of the plastic out in the shed, and revisit it to harvest pieces to patch my GL1000 projects including tabs and such. For those, I sometimes reinforce with a bit of fiberglass cloth on backside. I've not needed to thin my ABS cement (I buy new when it gets too thick), but have learned that you do need to used the Oatley general-purpose clear cleaner (after mechanically removing paint and roughing the surface). The cleaner slightly attacks the surface so that the cement bonds well. The cement is thick enough to bridge and fill small gaps, and I used thin cut pieces for larger gaps. I've not had bubbles form, but I haven't thinned the cement.

[Corkster52]

I've not needed to thin my ABS cement (I buy new when it gets too thick), but have learned that you do need to used the Oatley general-purpose clear cleaner (after mechanically removing paint and roughing the surface). The cleaner slightly attacks the surface so that the cement bonds well. The cement is thick enough to bridge and fill small gaps, and I used thin cut pieces for larger gaps. I've not had bubbles form, but I haven't thinned the cement.

Thanks for this post! Maybe my not using the cleaner could be, at least part of, the problem. I do recall using some of it in repairs over a year ago, but since I read that so many people were using either rubbing alcohol or denatured alcohol to clean the areas, I thought I would go with the denatured version. The composition of the cleaner does have some good "attack" stuff in it. Oatley general-purpose clear cleaner I will pick some up and give it a try on my next repair!

Long story short on the number of ABS repairs that I have done on my 99. When I was looking for a bike, newer than the 88 that I had, I was so caught up in the wow factor of the one I currently have that I didn't look closely at everything I should. Since I got here home, it has been a relatively extensive process of finding more and more cracks, chunks missing (and covered over with carpet in the trunk) and cobbled up repairs (one tab on side cover was made out of wood).

So, almost every time I take a piece of fairing off that I haven't before I find another broken or cracked part. I started off buying the smallest container of Oatey special ABS glue I could find, but after using up several cans I moved up to the 16 oz version. I suspect that not getting the lids to the can completely tight (even though I use channel-locks to do so) could be why they get gummy so quickly

[Rwilkerson]

I have made several repairs to abs; The last owner had stripped all the screws in the trunk lid and after trying epoxy, liquid steel ended up removing all the glue in the holes and mixing the slurry using virgin abs pellets (ebay) mek and acetone. After filling the holes with the slurry installed correct screws allowed to dry 3 days then removed. Upon reinstall heated screws with a heat gun (should say warmed) the screws will conform to the treads. Another common problem is the post breaking on the trunk lock hooks if the pieces are still there can be reattached with using a mek to soften the areas then the slurry to reinforce the area. I have also reformed those post by using with is left of the post and install the screw then using the slurry to surround the screw allow to dry and recoat. By using the screw it will provide the correct angle for the post to align. Care should be used not to build to much as the liner will not fit correctly, I used a moto tool to shape them to fit. I have attempted to replace the lid by using a scrap yard one. Had luggage rack that did not fit mine so Filled the hole and some cracking around them. Using masking tape underside filled holes with slurry, and mek on the cracks sanded smooth. Would have worked fine but using colorrite paint ended up with deep cracking in the final finish. Painting should be left to professionals that little lesson cost me over $500.00 and still had to chuck everything.