Front shocks stiff on braking


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Wingspan1
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:08 am
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Motorcycle: 2015 Honda Goldwing Anniversary Edition 26

Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by Wingspan1 »



We have a 2015 Goldwing Anniversary. While sitting stationary I can make the shocks move up and down. When moving slowly and applying the front brake the front end seems to be very solid. I can’t take it out on the road to see how it feels when hitting rough spots on the road because of our weather here. I have read a few articles on the Anti Dive valve system. Does anyone have any ideas on how to actually check this valve out?
Thank you
Andy


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Andy Cote
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by Andy Cote »

Welcome to the forum.

Sounds about right. Movement of the front brake rotor activates the anti-dive valve so no effect when stationary. You can search this forum for more on the anti-dive.

When you do get out on the road, do not hard brake over ruts, juts, tracks or potholes. Places extra burden on the fork seals.

Some owners have been known to disable it. That is necessary with certain aftermarket suspension components.
2015 Goldwing, basic black

Previously: GL1200 standard, GL1200 Interstate, GL1500 Goldwing, GL1500 Valkyrie Standard, 2000 Valkyrie Interstate, many other Hondas
joecoolsuncle
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by joecoolsuncle »

Andy Cote wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:02 pm Welcome to the forum.

Sounds about right. Movement of the front brake rotor activates the anti-dive valve so no effect when stationary. You can search this forum for more on the anti-dive.

When you do get out on the road, do not hard brake over ruts, juts, tracks or potholes. Places extra burden on the fork seals.

Some owners have been known to disable it. That is necessary with certain aftermarket suspension components.
so the anti dive is not ALL it is made up to be?
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Andy Cote
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by Andy Cote »

joecoolsuncle wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:16 pm
Andy Cote wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:02 pm Welcome to the forum.

Sounds about right. Movement of the front brake rotor activates the anti-dive valve so no effect when stationary. You can search this forum for more on the anti-dive.

When you do get out on the road, do not hard brake over ruts, juts, tracks or potholes. Places extra burden on the fork seals.

Some owners have been known to disable it. That is necessary with certain aftermarket suspension components.
so the anti dive is not ALL it is made up to be?
I wouldn't say that at all. It's a great and innovative design for the typical Goldwing rider.

Those that ride hard or expect sport bike performance want different springs and rebound and that can result in contraindications with the factory anti-dive system. Similarly, some old school riders do not like new tricks such as anti-dive, linked brakes, ABS, etc,
2015 Goldwing, basic black

Previously: GL1200 standard, GL1200 Interstate, GL1500 Goldwing, GL1500 Valkyrie Standard, 2000 Valkyrie Interstate, many other Hondas
joecoolsuncle
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by joecoolsuncle »

Andy Cote wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:38 pm
joecoolsuncle wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:16 pm
Andy Cote wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:02 pm Welcome to the forum.

Sounds about right. Movement of the front brake rotor activates the anti-dive valve so no effect when stationary. You can search this forum for more on the anti-dive.

When you do get out on the road, do not hard brake over ruts, juts, tracks or potholes. Places extra burden on the fork seals.

Some owners have been known to disable it. That is necessary with certain aftermarket suspension components.
so the anti dive is not ALL it is made up to be?
I wouldn't say that at all. It's a great and innovative design for the typical Goldwing rider.

Those that ride hard or expect sport bike performance want different springs and rebound and that can result in contraindications with the factory anti-dive system. Similarly, some old school riders do not like new tricks such as anti-dive, linked brakes, ABS, etc,
but, but, the goldwing is touted as the best handling motorcycle around. to ride one normally would be the equivalent of riding a lesser machine "hard"? i find my 1200 to be adequate on a highway, but in no way could one ride it hard if there are bumpy curves (which there are), i think alot of folks confuse handling with easy steering or the ability fo go straight for hours. proper suspension could be considered as anti dive, could it not?
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by WingAdmin »

For a soft, comfortable ride, you want a compliant suspension. However, when you have a compliant suspension, it also means that it can compress large amounts under load - think of a huge old 1970's American "boat" type car. It gives a nice soft ride, but it wallows in corners and pitches over when you brake or accelerate.

Bikes are no different, except when the bike pitches over under hard braking, the rider has to hang on for dear life.

So to help mitigate this, they added the TRAC anti-dive system, which firms up the valving in the front forks under braking, to reduce the compliance and stiffen the front suspension.

All suspension is compromise, it's just what type and direction of compromise you are willing to live with.
joecoolsuncle
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by joecoolsuncle »

mr wing admin, you give the best explanations! yes to the wallowing boat analogy. you hit it on the head! my wing does feel and handle like a deuce and a quarter form the 70"s!
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dgalileo
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by dgalileo »

Wingspan1,
You did not mention when stationary whether or not you applied the brakes. When stationary, if you apply the BACK brakes, the fork should be locked up. As said before, for the front brakes to lock the forks, the wheel has to turn at least a little. I just had my 2008 front forks rebuilt and decided to go with new stock springs, bushings, etc. because I am basically happy with the front suspension and anti-dive. Just stay off the brakes when you go over speed bumps, etc. so the forks are not locked up as you go over them. There also is a tiny amount of "preload" in the anti-dive system by the plunger that closes the valve to lock up the forks. That sometimes makes going over big bumps harder than necessary because the "lock-up valve" is a little closed to begin with. To remedy that, I put 1mm thick washers between the 2 halves of the anti-dive control parts. Here is doing the same thing, but at the top of the anti-dive mechanism, which I chose to do differently, but equivalent:

https://www.gl1800riders.com/threads/di ... ost-634921

Some people cut the plunger off, and there is a shim available from Wingstuff or Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KR53Z1Z/?tag=goldwingdocs-20 ... DNRTVP3Y0H) that goes between the 2 halves of the anti-dive system. Both of those "fixes" totally disable the anti-dive (cutting the plunger does it irreversibly). I chose to just get rid of the "preload" with the 1 mm thick washers. My fix now allows the forks to compress slightly when stopping (< 1 inch), and it should be smoother over big bumps because there is now no preload. It's hard to tell. Anyway, try compressing the forks when stationary with the BACK brakes on. If the anti-dive is working correctly, then the forks should be totally locked up then. The gl1800riders forum has tons of discussion about anti-dive. Like I said, I think it works fine when it is working properly.
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Wingspan1
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by Wingspan1 »

Thank you very much for the reply. The weather here is starting to warm some what, so I maybe able to take it for a ride and diagnose it a little better on the street instead of a short rolling on the driveway into the garage.
Thank you again.
I love this site👍
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Ramnight
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by Ramnight »

The forks locking up is a normal action when applying the front brake because the stock springs are too weak even when new. Your best bet is to replace the front springs with a pair of Traxxion springs and to disable the anti-dive valve by installing a $12.00 spacer that is sold on ebay.
You can replace the springs and install the spacer without removing the forks from the bike. This way you will have more front end suspension travel and a much nicer ride. I have done this to 3 of my wings and to a couple of friends also over the years.
Just lift the front wheel off the ground and loosen the dash so you can tilt it up out of the way to access the fork tube caps..
Here is a photo of my anti-dive valve with the spacer installed.
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Wingspan1
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by Wingspan1 »

Thank you for the information. It is greatly appreciated.
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Ramnight
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by Ramnight »

Glad to help. If you do these two mods, you will not believe how much nicer the ride will be. You will not be bottoming out the forks on ruff roads, and the front end will not be harsh when breaking.
Enjoy
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dgalileo
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by dgalileo »

Just, FYI, I ride 2 up all the time and never bottom out with properly working stock suspension and anti-dive. It also rides smoother than my Toyota Highlander, which is pretty smooth. A lot of guys do the front suspension mods because their stock suspension is not working correctly, and they've never had correctly working front suspension (yes, I know some have). Changing your brake fluid and fork fluid helps make sure it works properly. As I said, if the stock suspension is working properly, then it's a decent compromise. If it's not working properly, then it could be very rough because it's locked up. The black plunger that sticks down and activates the shut-off valve for the fork fluid circulation can get stuck where it doesn't recede back up when you let off the brakes. But, I agree that replacing the springs with stiffer ones and putting the shim in between the 2 parts of the anti-dive is a relatively easy way to fix the suspension if you want something other than stock. I thought about doing that, but my stock fork suspension was fine with me, so I'm keeping it that way. I just had the forks rebuilt because I bought the bike used and did not know the history of if/when they were last serviced.
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Ramnight
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by Ramnight »

Ramnight wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:27 pm Glad to help. If you do these two mods, you will not believe how much nicer the ride will be. You will not be bottoming out the forks on ruff roads, and the front end will not be harsh when breaking. If you raise the front wheel off the ground you will notice that 80% of the suspension travel is taken by the weigh of the bike. So you are left with only around 2 -1/2" of travel left in the suspension. This is where the Traxxion springs come in the equation to eliminate this problem.
I have talked with a lot of guys that say the stock suspension is great, have never rode a wing with the proper fork springs and no anti-dive. :)
Enjoy
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dgalileo
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Re: Front shocks stiff on braking

Post by dgalileo »

Ramnight wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:27 pm Glad to help. If you do these two mods, you will not believe how much nicer the ride will be. You will not be bottoming out the forks on ruff roads, and the front end will not be harsh when breaking. If you raise the front wheel off the ground you will notice that 80% of the suspension travel is taken by the weigh of the bike. So you are left with only around 2 -1/2" of travel left in the suspension. This is where the Traxxion springs come in the equation to eliminate this problem.
I have talked with a lot of guys that say the stock suspension is great, have never rode a wing with the proper fork springs and no anti-dive. :)
Enjoy
Ramnight,
I think your numbers are not quite right. The GL1800 front forks have a travel distance "lock-to-lock" of 5.5" So, if you are left with 2.5", then you have about 45% of travel left, and 55% of travel taken up by the weight of the bike. My bike with brand new stock springs has at least 3" of travel left when sitting under its own weight, which would be at least 55% of travel left to soak up bumps. I probably have a little more than 3" left because I am measuring that from the top of the dust seal to where the dust begins on the tube above the seal (and I don't think I ever bottom out). But, it's at least 3". That's not bad, in my opinion, because you want the bike to be sitting somewhere towards the middle of the range of travel, preferably a little less than half way, which is where mine sits. You don't want the forks to be fully extended to be up against the end-of-travel when sitting because then you would be constantly hitting that end-of-travel "hard stop" on the road as you go over dips in the road as the fork lengthens. And, replacing springs is not going to lengthen that maximum 5.5" of fork travel. Stiffer springs will just maybe make the front end sit up a little higher (e.g., 1" or 2" below being fully extended, instead of my 3"), and the forks will compress less over bumps, which means you may feel the bumps more. So again, I think Honda did a decent job of figuring out where the best compromise was with their springs and anti-dive combination. And again, I think most guys who are unhappy with the stock system either have let things go bad from neglect or bought a used bike where they already went bad and think that's how it is supposed to work. The only thing I wish they did differently is to not have the anti-dive activated when you put on the back brake. But, that probably was not possible with the linked brake system where you cannot just put on the back brake. This is not enough of an issue, though, to make me want to totally disengage the anti-dive feature and, therefore, have to use stiffer springs. I'm satisfied with the way things are as designed.


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