Inconsistent Oil Level Readings: 2021 GW Tour

[Captain Steve]

On several occasions my oil level has been slightly above the low mark, then after the next ride on a following day it's back to the full mark. My procedure is per the owners manual: Warm to operating temp, stop engine, on center stand, allow to drain (I allow 5 minutes), then check by removing dip stick, wipe clean, then reinsert without screwing in. First time I found the oil to be "apparently" low, I added oil to near the full mark. After the following ride, it indicated over filled, so I drain the amount that I had added.

It appears that for some reason it periodically does not fully drain back to the oil pan. I'm would like to know if anyone has had similar experience and/or thoughts on the possible cause of this issue.

2021 Goldwing Tour; 5,700 miles; 1st oil & filter change at 590 miles, 2nd oil & filter change at 4,020 miles. Using Honda filter and non-synthetic Honda GN4.

Thanks in advance for responses.

[DenverWinger]

I wouldn't over analyze it. When I change the oil and filter on the 1500, I simply glug the entire gallon into the engine. This results in being slightly overfilled, maybe 1/4 of a quart, doesn't bother anything.

Still reads on the full mark when I change again, 5-7000 miles later.

I think these bikes are perfectly happy with oil between 1/4 quart over to probably a half-quart low.

[Captain Steve]

I'm less concerned about the amount of oil in the engine, than I am about the inconsistent indication on the stick. I changed the oil and filter myself and added exactly the amount of oil specified. As I previously indicated, I check oil level per the owner's manual instructions. Additionally, I check while parked is same location, facing same direction in my garage.

It appears that for some reason it periodically does not fully drain back to the oil pan.

I would like to know if anyone has had similar experience and/or thoughts on the possible cause of this issue.

Thanks

[joecoolsuncle]

inconsistent parking will result in inconsistent levels.

[Captain Steve]

As stated in my most recent post... Additionally, I check while parked is same location, facing same direction in my garage.

[Rambozo]

This is a non DCT bike?

[Captain Steve]

6 speed manual, non-DCT. Good question... thanks!

[johnny42]

Drain. Fill with the 4 qt jug. Ride.

You might save yourself a lot of stress and worry.

But if you can't do that, contact your dealer for an explanation. But I suspect you're still going to want to see consistent results.

[DenverWinger]

As stated above. Check oil every thousand miles or so. If it shows a half-quart low before oil-change time, add some. If something drastic happens and you lose oil all of a sudden checking every 100 miles won't predict that. But you'll be warned by red lights and engine sound.

I doubt you'll ever see a "half-quart low" before the year 2046, it'll be 25 yrs old then.....

Trying to keep these things "Exactly" on the full mark is a waste of time and effort. If oil level is anywhere near the mark, it is good enough.

[johnny42]

These engines don't burn oil. Fill with 4 quarts and ride. If you see black smoke coming from the exhaust or oil drips/stains under the bike, then you'll have more to worry about than the oil level.

[Captain Steve]

I appreciate the response thus far, however I've not seen a response that addresses my issue. Again: "On several occasions my oil level has been slightly above the low mark, then after the next ride on a following day it's back to the full mark.".

Sense purchasing the bike in September, I have seen this happen two or three times.

I am not concerned that I am burning or otherwise losing oil, as it typically measures near the full mark. My question is why would it measure near the low mark one day, then after the next ride back to near full. Again, as stated in original post, my measurement method is consistent. Also performed in my garage with bike parked in same location facing same direction (floor slope not a factor). Also ambient temperature difference between the two days is only a few degrees.

The question is: Why on several occasions has the oil not fully drained back to the pan, until after the following ride?

[joecoolsuncle]

is that bike equipped with an oil cooler?

[Captain Steve]

No. It is radiator / air cooled.

[boblepp]

Zen…Motorcycle Maintenace…clear the mind…. The reason is obvious…. You just want it to be really cool….the oil sometimes stays on surfaces inside the engine…..there is no other answer…..oooommmmmmmmmm!

If I get you to believe that, will you want to know exactly what surfaces?

Or, will you buy the idea your nephew is sneaking in and adding oil while you sleep? He always wanted to drive you mad!
Way back, adding gas to your neighbor's VW was great sport as you listen to him rave about his mileage.

I’d be happy with either answer.

Do you lock your filler/dipstick to prevent oil loss? Would you buy such devices?

Or is your money better spent on an inverter. You invert the bike, wait a minute, revert, and check the level.

Im tapped out now.

[Asphaltmaniac]

Here is how I check my oil level. Bike on center stand. cold engine start let it idle 3 minutes. shut it off let it sit for 3 more minutes before checking oil.

[joecoolsuncle]

No. It is radiator / air cooled.

you may want to trade for a kia

[dgalileo]

Here is how I check my oil level. Bike on center stand. cold engine start let it idle 3 minutes. shut it off let it sit for 3 more minutes before checking oil.

Yeah, I think this kind of standardization is key to getting consistent oil level readings. The 1800 manual says to start and run for 3-5 minutes and then turn off and let sit 2-3 minutes before checking oil. I wouldn't be surprised if deviating by more than a minute or two would give you a different reading.

[Asphaltmaniac]

Here is how I check my oil level. Bike on center stand. cold engine start let it idle 3 minutes. shut it off let it sit for 3 more minutes before checking oil.

Yeah, I think this kind of standardization is key to getting consistent oil level readings. The 1800 manual says to start and run for 3-5 minutes and then turn off and let sit 2-3 minutes before checking oil. I wouldn't be surprised if deviating by more than a minute or two would give you a different reading.

Honestly I cant take the credit for this method. For years with a cold engine I'd just check the level and call er done. Just like doing a car. Until one day Goldwing Greg in here, said to someone else who posed a similar question, hold on a minute not so fast. He suggested the 3 on 3 off method. So I tried a little experiment. Checked mine as I always did, then did the 3/3 one. What a surprise Found for years and years I had been running about 1/4 qt, maybe a smidge less or so low.
A real .

[boblepp]

I’m no engineer, but what you describe is:
Ride for 4 hours, park it, let it cool, next day or a week later the oil level shows full.
But.
Run it for three minutes, wait 3 minutes, the level shows down .25 quart.
This only proves that when every part of the engine is at a hot temperature,
that the oil is at its thinnest and flows very easily off every interior surface and so the reading is higher
than when the oil at the three minute temperature is given only three minutes to drip down.
I’d argue that at the three minute temperature, you are overfilling it.
And since you never measure it cold, you never see it overfilled.
There is a lot of metal to get hot in 3 minutes. You will not heat ALL of the metal and so when you shut it off, the cold metal absorbs heat, making the oil cooler than “normal”.
You measure coolant when cold. It is only logical that the oil will register its highest point if you let it drip off every interior hidey holes for some time.
Prove it by filling a 2 cup measure with cool oil, pour it out… then let the cup sit at least an hour, the puddle that results was held by the cool surface and only time will let it flow off the surface.
The highest oil level is probably measured a few days after your ride.
You cannot get an accurate level at only three minutes of dripping off.
If anyone will bet me a dollar, I’ll video the cup being measured hot versus cool.
Even a ketchup bottle will act like this. Eventually the stuff on the sides drips to the bottom.
Imagine a jar of honey….until it is well heated it sticks to the cup. Apply high heat and it liquifies.
‘Nuff said.
Well, maybe not, check Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity

The viscosity of a fluid is a measure of its resistance to deformation at a given rate. For liquids, it corresponds to the informal concept of "thickness": for example, syrup has a higher viscosity than water.[1]

We use a lower viscosity in winter so it flows off surfaces more quickly, thus keeping the usable volume the pump can move around at its highest.
A higher viscosity at -40F would just coat and stick for a very long time.
Glass is the extreme example,

Glass, however, is actually neither a liquid—supercooled or otherwise—nor a solid. It is an amorphous solid—a state somewhere between those two states of matter.

The least viscous at any temperature must be superfluid liquid helium.

[joecoolsuncle]

I’m no engineer, but what you describe is:
Ride for 4 hours, park it, let it cool, next day or a week later the oil level shows full.
But.
Run it for three minutes, wait 3 minutes, the level shows down .25 quart.
This only proves that when every part of the engine is at a hot temperature,
that the oil is at its thinnest and flows very easily off every interior surface and so the reading is higher
than when the oil at the three minute temperature is given only three minutes to drip down.
I’d argue that at the three minute temperature, you are overfilling it.
And since you never measure it cold, you never see it overfilled.
There is a lot of metal to get hot in 3 minutes. You will not heat ALL of the metal and so when you shut it off, the cold metal absorbs heat, making the oil cooler than “normal”.
You measure coolant when cold. It is only logical that the oil will register its highest point if you let it drip off every interior hidey holes for some time.
Prove it by filling a 2 cup measure with cool oil, pour it out… then let the cup sit at least an hour, the puddle that results was held by the cool surface and only time will let it flow off the surface.
The highest oil level is probably measured a few days after your ride.
You cannot get an accurate level at only three minutes of dripping off.
If anyone will bet me a dollar, I’ll video the cup being measured hot versus cool.
Even a ketchup bottle will act like this. Eventually the stuff on the sides drips to the bottom.
Imagine a jar of honey….until it is well heated it sticks to the cup. Apply high heat and it liquifies.
‘Nuff said.
Well, maybe not, check Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity

The viscosity of a fluid is a measure of its resistance to deformation at a given rate. For liquids, it corresponds to the informal concept of "thickness": for example, syrup has a higher viscosity than water.[1]

We use a lower viscosity in winter so it flows off surfaces more quickly, thus keeping the usable volume the pump can move around at its highest.
A higher viscosity at -40F would just coat and stick for a very long time.
Glass is the extreme example,

Glass, however, is actually neither a liquid—supercooled or otherwise—nor a solid. It is an amorphous solid—a state somewhere between those two states of matter.

The least viscous at any temperature must be superfluid liquid helium.

you should write tech articles for a living! good job.

[boblepp]

That was very kind. Although, I am not sure who explained the "3 and 3" in technical terms to anyone.

I find that to prove any assertion of ANYTHING, one need only look closely at the extreme ends of the range of possible outcomes. Looking only at some "middle of the road values" does not help as much to prove the theory.

"Speed kills" is an example. Do not focus on 10-100 mph, you'll just start an argument. But take the range of speeds as being ZERO mph to light speed.. and you easily prove that speed indeed does kill when compared to no speed at all. In fact, SLOWING DOWN from light speed may kill.

Simple, eh?

Thanks again!

[dgalileo]

The reason that Honda specifies run engine for a few minutes and then let sit for a few minutes before checking the oil level is because that's what they wanted to have the dipstick calibrated for. You can calibrate the dipstick to anything you want, and they did not calibrate it to having the bike at full operating temperature. So, if you bring the engine up to full operating temp, then you are not going to get the proper reading on the dipstick. They could have calibrated it for full operating temperature, but they didn't, otherwise they would have said "Run the engine until it comes to normal operating temperature." I think the reason is that you want to check the oil before you run the engine for a long time for fear it might be too low. So, running for 3 minutes and letting it sit for 3 minutes is a good standardization to calibrate the dipstick to to warm the oil enough to get it to flow, but not too long in case it needs oil. If you check the oil after the bike has come to full operating temp, then you will get the wrong reading, and that's by design. So, 3 minutes on from cold and 3 minutes off before checking level is the right way.

[boblepp]

That is interesting. But, the Honda manual says that the 3-3 is their standard ONLY if the engine is not ALREADY hot. AND THEN, even if the engine IS hot, it says wait three minutes because step 2 is NOT uniquely connected to step 1.
And ambient temperature is not a criteria. Results would vary from Dubai to Nome.

I CAN see where some people might CHANGE the Honda manual to say:

• Let the engine cool totally.
  Run the engine for 3 minutes.
  Let stand for 3 minutes.

BUT, that would be NOT what Honda says, which is:

• IF HOT - let stand for 3 minutes, measure
  IF COLD - warm up for 3 minutes, stand for 3 minutes, measure

This is from the Canadian manual, sorry, eh?

Check the engine oil with the Idling Stop
system disabled. 2 P. 61
1. If the engine is cold, idle the engine for
3 to 5 minutes.
2. Turn the ignition switch OFF and wait
for 2 to 3 minutes.
3. Place your vehicle in an upright position
on a firm, level surface.
4. Remove the dipstick and wipe it clean.
5. Insert the dipstick until it seats, but don't
screw it in.

[Asphaltmaniac]

That is interesting. But, the Honda manual says that the 3-3 is their standard ONLY if the engine is not ALREADY hot. AND THEN, even if the engine IS hot, it says wait three minutes because step 2 is NOT uniquely connected to step 1.
And ambient temperature is not a criteria. Results would vary from Dubai to Nome.

I CAN see where some people might CHANGE the Honda manual to say:

• Let the engine cool totally.
  Run the engine for 3 minutes.
  Let stand for 3 minutes.

BUT, that would be NOT what Honda says, which is:

• IF HOT - let stand for 3 minutes, measure
  IF COLD - warm up for 3 minutes, stand for 3 minutes, measure

This is from the Canadian manual, sorry, eh?

Check the engine oil with the Idling Stop
system disabled. 2 P. 61
1. If the engine is cold, idle the engine for
3 to 5 minutes.
2. Turn the ignition switch OFF and wait
for 2 to 3 minutes.
3. Place your vehicle in an upright position
on a firm, level surface.
4. Remove the dipstick and wipe it clean.
5. Insert the dipstick until it seats, but don't
screw it in.

I'm out for a ride today so will do my normal 3 on/off minute check b4 leaving. And will do the 3 minute drain and check again once home.
Curious to see if the levels match.

[boblepp]

Well, there is no way the two readings will agree. The highest level is found after the longest period of just sitting after a ride, since the period that started as hot from the road will result in the highest reading possible. The 3-3 reading will ALWAYS be lower because you sprayed the oil around inside a cold engine for a few minutes, wherein the engine does not get as heat soaked as a ride and so the most oil possible left sticking to the interior surfaces happens and the level is seen as lower.

I must re-iterate that we are only arguing over a post which miss-stated the 3-3 procedure. Honda says use 3-3 ONLY if the engine is NOT HOT. Honda states clearly if the engine is not cold the level measured is the best reading. The mistake the first 3-3 poster made was to take a hot engine, and run it again for 3 minutes. That splashes oil back onto the interior it had already drained off of. Some oil may drain back out of oil galleries to bearings, etc. And so the 3-3 fills those galleries up again.

Restated yet again, the oil level cannot be as correct as the long sit after a long ride because you are spreading the oil around again for 3 minutes cold. If you top up after the 3-3 measurement you may overfill. Which you can prove by coming back a week later and measuring it cold.

So. Ride. Park level. Wait five minutes. Measure. Next time you go to ride, measure cold to see how much more oil dripped of the hot engine in five minutes.

The only reason Honda says a cold engine should be run three minutes is they don’t want you running a low level for longer than that. Perhaps they should ADD wording which says the best level is read the safest at five minutes after shutting down from a long ride.

Or am I wrong?