Rebuilding crashed bike

[GAMEOVERMAN]

Hi everyone, I'm rebuilding crashed 2018 gl1800d the bike got damaged left side head so I've got new head and other things for it. The question I have is first of all I lost 1 shim and the rest I forgot to mark where they belong. I've got a shim kit with all sizes but how do I figure out where each shim belongs?

Second question is regarding the left camshaft installation In the manual it shows to install rockers and after to install the camshaft, but it doesnt fit because the arms are in the way. I think I'm missing something?

Any help is appreciated!

[Rambozo]

There might be an expensive factory tool to get the proper shim thickness, but apart from that you will just have to put it together with the thinnest shims, then measure the lash and calculate what you need to hit the spec. Since you replaced the head, the old shim size wouldn't help you anyway.
Do you have the service manual?
Haven't seen anything here about tearing into that new engine, yet.

[GAMEOVERMAN]

Yes I do but I can't find anything regarding the shim size I need to use in a new engine or regarding the fact that the crankshaft doesn't fit

[Rambozo]

Like I said, just put it together with the thinnest shims, and measure it. You can do this on the bench before you install the head, but it's always best to double check the lash after the head is torqued on and been heat cycled at least once.
Can't help you on the camshaft (crankshaft?) as I didn't take it apart.
I have had plenty of heads that used shims and had a tool to hold the valves open while inserting the cams. However, there is usually an alternate way to do that, it just takes a lot longer and/or requires more hands.
Look in the service manual under the special tools section. Often you can make up something to do the same job, if you only plan on doing this once.

[GAMEOVERMAN]

Yes sorry, it's a camshaft. Ok thank you I will try to do that.

[GoldWingrGreg]

Hi everyone, I'm rebuilding crashed 2018 gl1800d the bike got damaged left side head so I've got new head and other things for it. The question I have is first of all I lost 1 shim and the rest I forgot to mark where they belong. I've got a shim kit with all sizes but how do I figure out where each shim belongs?

Second question is regarding the left camshaft installation In the manual it shows to install rockers and after to install the camshaft, but it doesnt fit because the arms are in the way. I think I'm missing something?

Any help is appreciated!

I'm confused. First off, new heads do not come with valves. Did you transfer your old valves, and valve parts to the new heads. If so, was a machinist involved ??? The seats and valves need ground. The old shims are unique to the old head, and those valve only, so new shimming is required.

What happened to the old shim. Did it possibly get dropped into the engine, or do you absolutely know that it was not lost that way, as in dropped on the floor and lost from there ??? Loosing a shim inside an engine should be a serious concern. The one time that happened in my shop, it was during an engine build (5th gen transmission repair), so there was no oil in the engine, the inside of the case was clean and dry. We were able to flip and lean the engine in various ways until we were able to reach in through the oil fill hole, and using a magnet, fished it out. If it was not found, the engine would have come back apart. If the engine had been drain, with a film of oil in it, doing what we did probably may not have worked. As we flipped the engine, we could hear the shim rattling around. Sometimes a shim can get lost inside a valve spring. In either case, it needs to be retrieved. Shims are very hard and can easily do damage if not retrieved.

As for shims. If you bought an aftermarket shim kit, they only come with 1/2 the sizes missing ... the in-betweens are missing. For example you probably have 205s and 210s, but the 208s are missing. The same will be true for 198, 202, 208, 212, 218, 222, etc. If using an aftermarket kit, and when making changes, and let say the shim being removed is a 205, and it needs changed to a 210. Be sure to measure what you took out, it may really not be a 205, and what you're putting in ... the one marked 210 may not really be a 210. In the aftermarket world, never count on their marking ... aftermarket parts have little to know quality control. If you're using Honda shims, you can count on their markings.

As for a cam not fitting because the arms are in the way. It's been awhile since I've have to such work, I too recall the same issue, but cannot remember the "work around." Could it be that the exhaust adjusters need back out ??? What I do remember is there being a sentence or paragraph of information missing in the Service Manual, leaving me shocked that such an important piece of information was not there. Relying on years of mechanical experience, we were able to figure it out. I remember it used up about 2-4 hours of my time and my mechanics time, while we figuring it out. However, a few hours later, we found that chunk of info needed, in an unexpected area of the Service Manual. As with all Honda literature, they're a comprehensive study. That usually means that the info needed is there, but it may not be there in the area where one might expect. Sometimes new prints, such as a 2022 manual, might have the info relocated.

As Rambozo says, to my knowledge, trial and error is the only way to shim those valves. Also, a final valve adjustment is needs, after the engine is started, run, and cooled. If it helps, and OEM set up usually will use shims between 200-230, with 205-215 most common. However, if the old valves were transferred and ground, a fatter range is more likely. I've always suspected that at the factory they might have a laser setup to measure clearance; however, factory workers get real good at doing certain things. For example, it you look at the top of your valve stems, you'll see that there is often a difference between the distant from the top to the valve keepers. They probably are able to use that as a "shim guide" to get close. If you do that all day long, you too would get really good at "best guess."

[GAMEOVERMAN]

Thank you for your suggestions. I'm sure it's not in the engine because I had the head out on a bench. I figured out issue with the shaft not fitting. Turned out that I needed to loosen the little screws up that touch the shims so the shaft fits in the grove.

Regarding shim placement. If I understand this correctly I would need to fit for example 2.00 shim everywhere and check with the feeler gauge if it corresponds to a manual and go from there?

Thanks again!

[GoldWingrGreg]

Regarding shim placement. If I understand this correctly I would need to fit for example 2.00 shim everywhere and check with the feeler gauge if it corresponds to a manual and go from there?

Thanks again!

Correct ... it will all be trial and adjust from there. It's best to start thin, and install fatter shims from there. So starting off at 200 should be good. Even though the shims are metric, I prefer the use of SAE feeler gauges. In the SAE world, the differance in the next fatter or thiner shim, is a change of nearly 0.001" of an inch. Some other things to know. 200mm = 200mm; however, one that is marked 202 does not equal is a 202 ... it's really a 202.5, there is not enough room to print 202.5 on a shim, so they round down. On a 208 ... it's really a 207.5mm, in this case they roundup. Because an increase up/down is nearly 0.001", at least for me, it is easiest to use SAE feeler gauges.

Although using SAE feeler gauges may be confusing, if one does enough of them, they will see why using ASE feeler gauges works so well.

[GAMEOVERMAN]

Regarding shim placement. If I understand this correctly I would need to fit for example 2.00 shim everywhere and check with the feeler gauge if it corresponds to a manual and go from there?

Thanks again!

Correct ... it will all be trial and adjust from there. It's best to start thin, and install fatter shims from there. So starting off at 200 should be good. Even though the shims are metric, I prefer the use of SAE feeler gauges. In the SAE world, the differance in the next fatter or thiner shim, is a change of nearly 0.001" of an inch. Some other things to know. 200mm = 200mm; however, one that is marked 202 does not equal is a 202 ... it's really a 202.5, there is not enough room to print 202.5 on a shim, so they round down. On a 208 ... it's really a 207.5mm, in this case they roundup. Because an increase up/down is nearly 0.001", at least for me, it is easiest to use SAE feeler gauges.

Although using SAE feeler gauges may be confusing, if one does enough of them, they will see why using ASE feeler gauges works so well.

Thank you sir! Very helpful, regarding the new head and new valves i spoke with dealer when ordered parts and they said that there is no rubbing or matching valves required that it is perfect out of the box. IS that incorrect? Do I need to do that process?

[GoldWingrGreg]

Thank you sir! Very helpful, regarding the new head and new valves i spoke with dealer when ordered parts and they said that there is no rubbing or matching valves required that it is perfect out of the box. IS that incorrect? Do I need to do that process?

Please keep us posted, so that we all can learn too, but I beleive your dealer is wrong. Part #2 https://www.mrcycles.com/oemparts/a/hon ... inder-head

Below is the fishe for your valves. https://www.mrcycles.com/oemparts/a/hon ... haft-valve

Assuming that the only damage was your head's casing, and no valves, no shafts, and no cam damage, then yes ... basically all the parts from the fishe below will need transfered to your new head. The new head comes valve seats and valve guides. Both the seats and guides, and the valves will machined. With your new head, you need new valve seals (24 of part #1). https://www.mrcycles.com/oemparts/a/hon ... haft-valve

Here we would carry both heads into a reputable automotive machine shop. Usually they have the stones to properly grinde the valves. I'd also take them copies of the pages needed from the Service Manual so they have proper guidance. Most likely the new guides, that should already come with the head will need reamed. I'd also be bringing them the special reaming tool as found in the Service Manual.

[Rambozo]

If you bought everything new and didn't transfer any parts from your old head, in theory you could just assemble everything. However, it is always a good idea to have everything measured and make sure it is all in spec. Some of that requires special tools that any good machine shop will have. Sometimes new heads are fully finished machined and ready to go, while others are only semi-finished to allow for fitting to existing parts. I know with older Honda cars, new heads are not supplied finished, but I've never bought a new Honda motorcycle head.

[GAMEOVERMAN]

Thank you sir! Very helpful, regarding the new head and new valves i spoke with dealer when ordered parts and they said that there is no rubbing or matching valves required that it is perfect out of the box. IS that incorrect? Do I need to do that process?

Please keep us posted, so that we all can learn too, but I beleive your dealer is wrong. Part #2 https://www.mrcycles.com/oemparts/a/hon ... inder-head

Below is the fishe for your valves. https://www.mrcycles.com/oemparts/a/hon ... haft-valve

Assuming that the only damage was your head's casing, and no valves, no shafts, and no cam damage, then yes ... basically all the parts from the fishe below will need transfered to your new head. The new head comes valve seats and valve guides. Both the seats and guides, and the valves will machined. With your new head, you need new valve seals (24 of part #1). https://www.mrcycles.com/oemparts/a/hon ... haft-valve

Here we would carry both heads into a reputable automotive machine shop. Usually they have the stones to properly grinde the valves. I'd also take them copies of the pages needed from the Service Manual so they have proper guidance. Most likely the new guides, that should already come with the head will need reamed. I'd also be bringing them the special reaming tool as found in the Service Manual.

Oh yeah the camshaft is new it had bent guide, as well rocker arms, I think I will get that blue paste and check how the valves seat in the head. I will get back to you. Forgot to ask if you guys know how the taping screw needs to be adjusted? All of them exactly the same I assume?

[GAMEOVERMAN]

If you bought everything new and didn't transfer any parts from your old head, in theory you could just assemble everything. However, it is always a good idea to have everything measured and make sure it is all in spec. Some of that requires special tools that any good machine shop will have. Sometimes new heads are fully finished machined and ready to go, while others are only semi-finished to allow for fitting to existing parts. I know with older Honda cars, new heads are not supplied finished, but I've never bought a new Honda motorcycle head.

That's my hope too. That it all fits. Going to make sure the valves seat and then measure distances per manual.

[Rambozo]

You can often just look at the valve seats to see if the head is finished or just semi-finished. If the seats are ground with three angles, it was finished. If there is just one angle it likely isn't finished. As Greg said, one of the important things to measure is the stem to guide clearance. This requires the use of a micrometer and a small bore gauge or gauge pins. It is corrected by reaming or better yet honing the guides. Another spec is the stem height above the spring seat. This changes when you grind the valves and seats, and can be corrected by grinding the top of the stem. The seat width and location are something else to check. That can only be corrected by seat grinding. Last is the spring assembled height. This is set with shims under the spring seat if needed.
Bluing is ok, but takes some experience to know the correct amount and how to read it. There are also air gauges that test valve leakage.
A much simpler method that is pretty fool proof is once the valves and springs are assembled, fill the ports behind the valves with mineral spirits, or other light solvent. (diesel fuel is one alternative) Look in the combustion chamber for any leaks around the valves. If you have a leak, there is a problem. A good valve job will be bone dry. If the leak is very small, lapping that valve might be all that is required. If the leak is dripping, that valve and seat will need grinding.

[GAMEOVERMAN]

You can often just look at the valve seats to see if the head is finished or just semi-finished. If the seats are ground with three angles, it was finished. If there is just one angle it likely isn't finished. As Greg said, one of the important things to measure is the stem to guide clearance. This requires the use of a micrometer and a small bore gauge or gauge pins. It is corrected by reaming or better yet honing the guides. Another spec is the stem height above the spring seat. This changes when you grind the valves and seats, and can be corrected by grinding the top of the stem. The seat width and location are something else to check. That can only be corrected by seat grinding. Last is the spring assembled height. This is set with shims under the spring seat if needed.
Bluing is ok, but takes some experience to know the correct amount and how to read it. There are also air gauges that test valve leakage.
A much simpler method that is pretty fool proof is once the valves and springs are assembled, fill the ports behind the valves with mineral spirits, or other light solvent. (diesel fuel is one alternative) Look in the combustion chamber for any leaks around the valves. If you have a leak, there is a problem. A good valve job will be bone dry. If the leak is very small, lapping that valve might be all that is required. If the leak is dripping, that valve and seat will need grinding.

Ok thank you for the suggestions! Very helpful! I will do that leak test.

[GoldWingrGreg]

Ok thank you for the suggestions! Very helpful! I will do that leak test.

My guess is that the valves will slide into the guides until they are reamed.

[GAMEOVERMAN]

You can often just look at the valve seats to see if the head is finished or just semi-finished. If the seats are ground with three angles, it was finished. If there is just one angle it likely isn't finished. As Greg said, one of the important things to measure is the stem to guide clearance. This requires the use of a micrometer and a small bore gauge or gauge pins. It is corrected by reaming or better yet honing the guides. Another spec is the stem height above the spring seat. This changes when you grind the valves and seats, and can be corrected by grinding the top of the stem. The seat width and location are something else to check. That can only be corrected by seat grinding. Last is the spring assembled height. This is set with shims under the spring seat if needed.
Bluing is ok, but takes some experience to know the correct amount and how to read it. There are also air gauges that test valve leakage.
A much simpler method that is pretty fool proof is once the valves and springs are assembled, fill the ports behind the valves with mineral spirits, or other light solvent. (diesel fuel is one alternative) Look in the combustion chamber for any leaks around the valves. If you have a leak, there is a problem. A good valve job will be bone dry. If the leak is very small, lapping that valve might be all that is required. If the leak is dripping, that valve and seat will need grinding.

So I didn't have any diesel or mineral spirits but I poured some gas in from the combustion side and didn't see any leaks, It evaporates a bit at a time it looks like but no thing leaked through, didn't notice anything. No bubbles either

[Rambozo]

You can't really see good enough looking in the ports. That's why you put the fluid there and look in the chamber.

[GoldWingrGreg]

My guess is that the valves will slide into the guides until they are reamed.

Opps ... ment to write that the valves will NOT slide into the guides until they are reamed.

[GAMEOVERMAN]

You can't really see good enough looking in the ports. That's why you put the fluid there and look in the chamber.

Oh I see, I can double check. Do I just pour it in the case in the back of the valves? There are gaskets that seal the valve stems, I'm guessing the gas wont go through the gasket.

[Rambozo]

Yes.
You can also post a photo of the valve seats to show how they have been machined.
As an example.

[GAMEOVERMAN]

Yes.
You can also post a photo of the valve seats to show how they have been machined.
As an example.
valve_diam2.jpg

Here I took a photo up close.

[Rambozo]

Valves have to be out to see the seats.
However, I can almost guarantee that it is fully machined as I think I can see just a bit of the top angle on one of the intake seats.

[GoldWingrGreg]

To me that looks like a machined head. Are those your old valves ???

I've never done head repair using a new head; however, I have done head repair after a dealer replaced a head with a new one. Apparently the shop had assumed that the valves were gonna seat correctly, and one didn't. So I had to remove the head and get a machine shop involve.

Hopefully the takeaway is this. As Rambozo is saying, before the head is installed, one must know that the valves are seating correctly into their seats. If not, expect low compression, probably backfiring, poor running, certainly poor mpg, smelly exhaust, and probably a flashing check engine light.

[GAMEOVERMAN]

To me that looks like a machined head. Are those your old valves ???

I've never done head repair using a new head; however, I have done head repair after a dealer replaced a head with a new one. Apparently the shop had assumed that the valves were gonna seat correctly, and one didn't. So I had to remove the head and get a machine shop involve.

Hopefully the takeaway is this. As Rambozo is saying, before the head is installed, one must know that the valves are seating correctly into their seats. If not, expect low compression, probably backfiring, poor running, certainly poor mpg, smelly exhaust, and probably a flashing check engine light.

Understood, thank you guys for your suggestions, very helpful. These are brand new valves too. Going to compress each one and look inside and take some pictures today.