Antifreeze and Oil


Information and questions on GL1000 Goldwings (1975-1979)
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fatalbert
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Antifreeze and Oil

Post by fatalbert » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:36 pm



I'm looking for some opinions on the 75 GL1000 I have been bringing out of moth balls. It has been sitting dry in a garage since 1998. Only has 22000 miles on it and it looks like new. I have been going through everything - removed gas tank to clean, drive shaft/rear end to grease, tires etc.

I installed new timing belts today and pulled the cam covers off as well to check the valve clearances.

It is obvious that the bike was well cared for and put away with new oil and the chrome parts were kept oiled to prevent rust.

While doing the valves I noticed a little bit of green antifreeze sitting in the oil within the valve cavity. I drained the oil to look for antifreeze but the oil looked clean. After the oil sat for an hour I poured the oil into a disposal container and did see some antifreeze that had sank to the bottom of the bucket I used to drain the oil. Not very much, maybe a tablespoon full.

Now after the long winded lead in my question is whether the antifreeze is leaking into the oil from the water pump or some other possibility from gaskets from the long sleep. I have seen other posts that suggest the water pump might be the likely cause when they start to fail. It was not a lot of antifreeze, but I could see it. I did not notice any oil in the antifreeze that I drained from the radiator.

Would appreciate some of your thoughts about this. I am finally starting to put it back together and thought I would ping your expertise.

Thanks, Al



DaveO430
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by DaveO430 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:25 pm

Being in the valve covers it is probably coming from the casting plugs in the heads under the cams. As far as I know antifreeze can't run uphill from the water pump.
And it should leak out the weep hole before it can get in the oil from the water pump.

fatalbert
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by fatalbert » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:22 pm

Thanks for the reply.

Not sure what you mean by the casting plugs. Must be a plug used to seal a fluid path after casting the head?

Looking at the flow diagram for the coolant, it looks like there are places coolant could leak into the cavities and paths that are only for oil.

According to one manual I have, a leaking seal on the water pump can cause water to get in the oil or oil to contaminate the antifreeze. Since I found a small amount of coolant on a casting ledge beneath the cams on both sides of the engine and in the bottom of the oil pan, I would guess the problem is a seal some where.

I look forward to a response from some one that has experienced something like this.

Has anyone had any experience using a Caltric replacement water pump good or bad?

fatalbert
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by fatalbert » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:47 am

I have been studying the manuals and engine photos and I think I found the plugs on the head under the cam shafts that you referred to in your post.

The ledge below the plugs with hex sockets on them is where I found some antifreeze in a small amount. Is this what you are referring to?

That would seem to be the likely cause. Is there a seal used on these plugs or a sealant that should be applied during installation of the plugs?

I have not found any mention about the plugs any where or how to deal with them to service. Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks, Al

DaveO430
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by DaveO430 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:35 am

fatalbert wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:47 am
I have been studying the manuals and engine photos and I think I found the plugs on the head under the cam shafts that you referred to in your post.

The ledge below the plugs with hex sockets on them is where I found some antifreeze in a small amount. Is this what you are referring to?

That would seem to be the likely cause. Is there a seal used on these plugs or a sealant that should be applied during installation of the plugs?

I have not found any mention about the plugs any where or how to deal with them to service. Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks, Al
Yes, those are the plugs. Take them out and use some kind of thread sealant on them. I use Hondbond myself since I have lots of it.

DaveO430
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by DaveO430 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:38 am

fatalbert wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:22 pm


I look forward to a response from some one that has experienced something like this.

Has anyone had any experience using a Caltric replacement water pump good or bad?
I didn't work as a mechanic most of my life and not gain some experience.
If you insist on replacing the water pump get it from Honda.

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badandy
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by badandy » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:57 am

My original Honda water pump failed at 37,000 miles. I replaced it with the Caltric unit with no problems after 1,7000 miles last year. Big price difference from the oem Honda pump. The only noticeable difference is the Caltric pump has a steel impeller vs a phenolic one from Honda.

Coolant should leak from the weep hole in the bottom of the pump if the mechanical seal is compromised. My weep hole was plugged with dirt and had no visible signs of being bad other than the noise it was making. I did not have coolant in the oil. Can't see where coolant could contaminate the oil at the pump unless it is severely worn and the bearing and seal on the oil side is totally shot. Should be leaking coolant wayyyy before that and sound like a pop can full of marbles.

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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by WingAdmin » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:40 am

badandy wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:57 am
My original Honda water pump failed at 37,000 miles. I replaced it with the Caltric unit with no problems after 1,7000 miles last year. Big price difference from the oem Honda pump. The only noticeable difference is the Caltric pump has a steel impeller vs a phenolic one from Honda.

Coolant should leak from the weep hole in the bottom of the pump if the mechanical seal is compromised. My weep hole was plugged with dirt and had no visible signs of being bad other than the noise it was making. I did not have coolant in the oil. Can't see where coolant could contaminate the oil at the pump unless it is severely worn and the bearing and seal on the oil side is totally shot. Should be leaking coolant wayyyy before that and sound like a pop can full of marbles.
Honda discontinued the phenloic-vaned pumps back in the 1980's. Their pump vanes are now steel as well.

Honda water pump
Honda water pump


fatalbert
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by fatalbert » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:31 am

Thanks for all the input. This has really taken the wind out of my sails so to speak. It was nice to finally be putting things back together after taking so much apart, cleaning, greasing, replacing, etc.

I am not looking forward to this but that is what you run into on 40 plus year old bikes that have been sitting for the last 20 years.

The only reason I saw the small amount of antifreeze was when I was taking off the valve cover, I had to tap on it to get it free. The GL1000 emblem on the valve cover fell off from the rubber hammer tapping. I thought the keepers fell off inside and I was looking hard for them in the cavity. That is when I saw the antifreeze. Then I figured out that the emblem with the keepers don't go through to the inside of the valve cover and were on the back of the emblem.

Will post back after completing this to add to the knowledge base, but it could be awhile since I need to recharge my attitude.

I was hoping it was the water pump since it is way easier to do.

Thanks for all the feedback and if anyone has already had to do this before I would appreciate any input. I am guessing the plug are going to be a real bugger to break loose.

Thanks, Al

DaveO430
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by DaveO430 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:09 pm

fatalbert wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:31 am


I was hoping it was the water pump since it is way easier to do.

Thanks for all the feedback and if anyone has already had to do this before I would appreciate any input. I am guessing the plug are going to be a real bugger to break loose.

Thanks, Al
What makes you think the water pump is easier? The plugs shouldn't be hard to get out. Be sure you drain the coolant before removing them.

fatalbert
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by fatalbert » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:30 pm

It is easier to do the water pump because it is out in the open and has easy access. Fewer steps to remove and R&R.

The casting plugs require removal of the timing belts, removal of the fuel pump, breaker cover, rocker mechanism and camshaft (both sides) before I can reseal the plugs. Then put everything back together and recheck all valve clearances.

Am I missing something and making it harder on myself than necessary?

If there is a simpler way that I am missing, please share your knowledge in a little more detail.

Thanks, Al

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brian.peters
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by brian.peters » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:25 pm

Never did it in these motors but could you fill the system then use a pressure tester to look for the leak. Just don't know if you can rent the property adapter.

fatalbert
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by fatalbert » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:05 pm

I could probably figure out a way to put a few pounds of pressure on the cooling system and see what happens.

However, I think Dave hit the nail on the head when he suggested the casting plugs. Right below the plugs was where I could see the antifreeze. It will probably get worse with time so I might as well go ahead and reseal the plugs. I might pressurize the system as you suggested first since lt will take a while to get all the replacement gaskets.

Might as well replace the cam seals as well since they will be out anyway. One thing leads to another.

Thanks for the suggestion.

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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by DaveO430 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:11 pm

fatalbert wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:30 pm
It is easier to do the water pump because it is out in the open and has easy access. Fewer steps to remove and R&R.

The casting plugs require removal of the timing belts, removal of the fuel pump, breaker cover, rocker mechanism and camshaft (both sides) before I can reseal the plugs. Then put everything back together and recheck all valve clearances.

Am I missing something and making it harder on myself than necessary?

If there is a simpler way that I am missing, please share your knowledge in a little more detail.

Thanks, Al
You are not missing anything and already know what you need to do but I don't think you understand what is involved in replacing the water pump.

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brian.peters
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by brian.peters » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:15 pm

fatalbert wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:05 pm
I could probably figure out a way to put a few pounds of pressure on the cooling system and see what happens.

However, I think Dave hit the nail on the head when he suggested the casting plugs. Right below the plugs was where I could see the antifreeze. It will probably get worse with time so I might as well go ahead and reseal the plugs. I might pressurize the system as you suggested first since lt will take a while to get all the replacement gaskets.

Might as well replace the cam seals as well since they will be out anyway. One thing leads to another.

Thanks for the suggestion.
Sounds like you are aware of everything in front of you and I think it makes sense to fix everything while in there. Maybe some is whether it needs it or not but it's an old bike that has been sitting a long time and better safe than sorry on the side of the road.

fatalbert
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by fatalbert » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:40 pm

Update on progress. I decided to dive back in today. Got the timing belts back off and took everything apart to get to the casting plugs.

I have flushed the cooling system previously and filled it back up with just water. After leaving the bike overnight, I could see a little bit of water weeping down in the cavity by the rocker arms.

Anyway, getting the casting plugs out was easy (after taking everything apart). I expected them to be frozen in, but they were actually not very tight. The sealant on the plugs had turned to a soft brown color mush and did nothing to prevent leaking.

I cleaned everything back up and put sealant on the plugs and put the plugs back in. I attached a photo so that you can see where the plugs go.

I ordered new cam seals and decided to replace the valve seals as well.
Attachments



fatalbert
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Re: Antifreeze and Oil

Post by fatalbert » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:05 pm

Since I want to replace the valve stem seals without removing the head using compressed air, could someone make a recommendation on the type of valve compressor tool that works well for the GL1000..



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