If it sounds like the valves are too loose...


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DaveO430
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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by DaveO430 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:35 am



Why pull the heads? Just turn it a little at a time and look at the cam lobes. If anything is questionable remove the rocker arms to get a better look.



kndw
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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:21 am

Can you remove the rocker arms without pulling the head? I was under the impression that the axles where the rocker arms are on are pressed into the aluminum 'housings', and if you take these housings off, the camshaft will fall out? I'll try your suggestion.

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ekvh
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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by ekvh » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:34 am

You can pull them. Leave one bolt in loose to make sure the cam doesn’t fall.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by DaveO430 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:01 pm

kndw wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:21 am
Can you remove the rocker arms without pulling the head? I was under the impression that the axles where the rocker arms are on are pressed into the aluminum 'housings', and if you take these housings off, the camshaft will fall out? I'll try your suggestion.
Yes, you have to take the belts off and the cam pulleys to remove the screw holding the inner timing cover to the rocker shaft holder then take out the bolts holding the rocker assembly on. If the cam comes out put it back in.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:07 am

The sun was out and I was home in the morning, so I took apart the rocker assembly on the noisy side, according to the method suggested above.

These are the rockers:


And these are the cams:


It all looked fine to me: no big scratches, and the wear pattern is even. If you spot something, I'm happy to hear!

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by DaveO430 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:11 am

I can't see the rocker arm pads well enough. Do they have a smooth radius with no horizontal grooves?

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:26 pm

DaveO430 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:11 am
I can't see the rocker arm pads well enough. Do they have a smooth radius with no horizontal grooves?
That's unfortunate, I'd hoped the full resolution figure would be available... anyway, I'd say they are smooth, and there's no grooves.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by DaveO430 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:17 pm

kndw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:26 pm


That's unfortunate, I'd hoped the full resolution figure would be available..
I can see the pictures just not at the right angle. It may be just a reflection but the second one from the bottom looks like it has a worn spot.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:16 pm

Unfortunately I had already put the assembly back together, so I can't take other pictures. I could not feel the lines seen in the image, therefore I believe they are just reflections. The only parts where I did see some wear were the adjuster screws. I have replaced these yesterday to rule them out, which also did not help.

Terryt remarked earlier in this thread that it sounded like the dash pots dancing in the carbs, and that I should check whether they are balanced properly. I did check, and the values were pretty close on my set of manometers, so I didn't bother tuning further, but I guess I'm going to check again. I also have a spare set of carburetors, so I might just swap them to see if that helps.

If that also isn't it, I think the only possible remaining option is that there is something wrong with a(the) valve(s). I had the heads serviced professionally and new valves placed last winter. I hope that the shop didn't screw up the job...

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by DaveO430 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:57 pm

kndw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:16 pm


Terryt remarked earlier in this thread that it sounded like the dash pots dancing in the carbs,
NO, the slides are doing absolutely nothing at idle.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by terryt » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:52 am

DaveO430 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:57 pm
kndw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:16 pm


Terryt remarked earlier in this thread that it sounded like the dash pots dancing in the carbs,
NO, the slides are doing absolutely nothing at idle.
Reading from the originale post. it say the noise is. When it is between 3 & 5k. Thats not idle.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:14 am

terryt wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:52 am
DaveO430 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:57 pm
kndw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:16 pm


Terryt remarked earlier in this thread that it sounded like the dash pots dancing in the carbs,
NO, the slides are doing absolutely nothing at idle.
Reading from the originale post. it say the noise is. When it is between 3 & 5k. Thats not idle.
Yes. Unfortunately for me I now also hear it at idle. So that excludes the carbs?

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by terryt » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:21 am

kndw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:14 am
terryt wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:52 am
DaveO430 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:57 pm


NO, the slides are doing absolutely nothing at idle.
Reading from the originale post. it say the noise is. When it is between 3 & 5k. Thats not idle.
Yes. Unfortunately for me I now also hear it at idle. So that excludes the carbs?
Is this since you put it back together after checking the cams?

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:16 am

I am not sure when it started, but it was already ticking at idle before I re-installed the cams (can be heard also in the video I posted). Maybe it was there also when I wrote the 3-5k rpm. The sound is more apparent when you rev the engine.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by ekvh » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:50 am

Did you have good look at the valve springs? The inner one is hard to see, but a broken spring, while rare, could cause this.

I can’t recall if I posted this already, but a leaking exhaust donut can sound like a tick. A good ear would be able to tell if it was motor noise or from underneath the cylinder head as you move your head downward. The few that I have encountered just needed to have the exhaust header nuts tightened.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:23 am

ekvh wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:50 am
Did you have good look at the valve springs? The inner one is hard to see, but a broken spring, while rare, could cause this.

I can’t recall if I posted this already, but a leaking exhaust donut can sound like a tick. A good ear would be able to tell if it was motor noise or from underneath the cylinder head as you move your head downward. The few that I have encountered just needed to have the exhaust header nuts tightened.
Someone indeed suggested it may be the exhaust gaskets. Or I read it on some other forum ;) . Either way, I had already replaced the exhaust gaskets, just to make sure. This didn't change anything. I also looked at the springs when the rocker assembly was off, but it is indeed hard to see. I will just bite the bullet and pull the heads to inspect them, and the valves, thoroughly.

Could a bad head gasket have something to do with this? It is unfortunate that I don't know when I first heard the noise, but I previously (also) had a leaking head gasket, on the same side where the ticking is. I replaced the head gasket for some off-brand item. I have two replacements from the brand Athena handy.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by terryt » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:54 am

I would do a compression test. that would show up bad valves, rings, gasket.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:33 am

Well... It look like I've found the problem. The contact areas where the adjusters meet the valves have ridges, and some appear to be pitted. See for instance this one, which is the one where the tappet noise seemed to originate from:


I imagine that with such ridges it is not possible to adjust the clearance properly. I bought these (cheap) valves new, and have used them at most 1000km. In comparison, the old original ones show NO wear on these areas!

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by virgilmobile » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:13 am

My word.I've never seen a valve stem wear like that.At least not on a OEM valve.
The rocker adjuster is off set from dead center so it will rotate the valve as it's running.That's the reason it's a perfect circle.
Your analysis is correct.Impossible to get a feeler gauge in there.
Good job.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:39 am

The others also have interesting wear patterns; some even appear to be missing tiny bits :shock:

I contacted the seller. They would not reimburse me, but did tell that the brand was likely Shin Nippon or Dokuro -apparently they don't even know what they sell. They added however that these valves are not rebranded as Vesrah or Honda. Maybe this is useful info for anyone else in need of new valves...

I looked for new valves by Honda, but they are no longer available, and I don't feel like another gamble with Vesrah valves. Hopefully re-installing/lapping the old valves will yield an acceptable set-up...

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by virgilmobile » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:24 pm

I lapped mine with great results.
A bit of oil on the shaft and a rubber coupler to a slow speed drill.Easier than by hand with a stick and suction cup.
Do not grind them.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:17 am

I replaced the valves for the original ones. Quite a job, but it seems to have helped. After half an hour of riding, still no ticking!

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by virgilmobile » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:42 am

Yeaaaa.What a good job done very well.
Just for humor...check them in a few hundred k.Just to let them seat in.

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Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Post by kndw » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:05 am

virgilmobile wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:42 am
Yeaaaa.What a good job done very well.
Just for humor...check them in a few hundred k.Just to let them seat in.
I will definitely do that! Thanks for all the help, everyone.



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