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If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:20 pm
by kndw
What else could it be?

I have now triple-checked the valve clearances using the method in the book as well as the method where you adjust the valves one cylinder at a time, and they are 0.1mm (as my manual says). Still I hear something that sounds like the valves between ~3k rpm and ~5k rpm. At higher rpms the sound may still be there, but the growling of the engine then dominates...

So, could i be doing something wrong? And if so, what? Are there other things that may sound like valves but aren't?

Thanks!

Edit: I realize that maybe a timing belt is off a tooth, but I thought that then performance and fuel consumption suffer, and she runs great, and I manage even 1liter:17kms, which I believe is pretty decent for a 'wing...

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:56 pm
by DWade1990
How noisy are your valves? A little bit of sewing machine sound is what you want. If you can't hear them, they're too tight.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:50 pm
by virgilmobile
I had a Gl1000 that had a tappet noise..It wasn't the engine..There was a chrome cover over the fuel pump..It was bolted to one of the intake bolts...Silly thing acted like a bell.I threw it in the trash and the noise went with it.
I also had a car that had abnormal tappet noise...Measured everything perfect..
The rocker had a worn flat spot in it.The cam was ok...Replacing the rockers quieted it down.
Look at the rockers and the ball end of the adjuster for abnormal wear.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:04 pm
by Fred Camper
I suspect you are hearing something other than the valves. There are chains to consider for the starter for instance.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:54 am
by kndw
The chains have been renewed during an overhaul of the engine last winter, so I can't imagine it is those. Worn rockers makes sense. I'll look at that, thanks.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:10 am
by terryt
The valve setting on a 1000 are not all the same
inlet .1mm .004"
exhaust .13mm .005

and should only be adjusted when cold like left over night

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:22 am
by virgilmobile
kndw wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:54 am
The chains have been renewed during an overhaul of the engine last winter, so I can't imagine it is those. Worn rockers makes sense. I'll look at that, thanks.
Don't forget to inspect the cam lobes for flat spots and the ball end of the adjuster.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:27 am
by kndw
This morning I took the valve covers off again and tried to inspect the camshafts and rockers. From what I could see by wiggling the rockers sideways, the cams and rockers looked okay, but it seems you can only inspect those parts properly if you take the thing that keeps the camshaft/rockers in place off entirely(?)... That will have to wait until after the season.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:32 am
by ekvh
The manual for 1000’s calls for 0.004” intake and exhaust clearances on a stone cold engine. The 1100’s use the 0.004” intake and 0.005” exhaust. That said, lots of guys with more knowledge than me suggest shooting for 0.005” on both. Too tight will rob power when engine is hot.

I cured all my noisy valves by simply getting older. Now I can’t hear them. Out of sound, out of mind. Lol

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:30 am
by Good Hondog
ekvh wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:32 am
I cured all my noisy valves by simply getting older. Now I can’t hear them. Out of sound, out of mind. Lol
Now that's some funny stuff right there! :lol: I spilled my coffee when I read that I was laughing so hard. Good one, ekvh, you made my day with your reply.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:31 am
by kndw
I looked at whether the cam timing was okay. It looked good to me, with the lines on the pulleys aligning with the lines in the plate behind them (and the engine at TDC#1). Does anyone notice something off here?




Also, it appears that the noise is not present when the engine is cold - little video here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tLfuEze2XGmhqRHn7.
This of course requires a comparison video with a warm engine, but it looks like it's about to rain, so that one will come at a later time.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:14 pm
by DaveO430
ekvh wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:32 am
The manual for 1000’s calls for 0.004” intake and exhaust clearances on a stone cold engine. The 1100’s use the 0.004” intake and 0.005” exhaust. That said, lots of guys with more knowledge than me suggest shooting for 0.005” on both. Too tight will rob power when engine is hot.

I cured all my noisy valves by simply getting older. Now I can’t hear them. Out of sound, out of mind. Lol
How does that happen? The clearance gets looser when hot in OHC engines.

I do like your "cure".

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:14 pm
by kndw
No rain, so I went to get a burger... here is a video with the engine at full operating temperature:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/N6pHs7PxgupbCosD7

I don't get why/how the clearance would get looser with a warm engine :?:

Maybe I just have to work on that getting-older thing.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:29 pm
by DaveO430
That is a lot of noise. Are you sure you didn't adjust them on the wrong stroke? Just having the T1 mark showing doesn't mean the cam is in the right position. If you adjusted them at the top of the exhaust stroke they would be very loose when at the top of the compression stroke.
The valves get looser because the valve head expands more than the other components of the valve train in an overhead cam. With a push rod engine the push rod expands more because of it's length so it does decrease the clearance.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:56 pm
by kndw
Nah... I cannot imagine that I adjusted them at the wrong T1: I would then have done it wrong several times in a row. Also, I'd imagine that with such a grave mistake I'd also hear valve noise when the engine is cold (see first video).

I followed the manual. First turn the engine to T1 such that both valves of cylinder 1 have some play. If they didn't, I turned the engine another round until I did feel play. Then I set the clearance such that a 0.1mm feeler would go in, but the next size (0.15mm) wouldn't.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:09 pm
by terryt
Are the carbs balance and set right. sounds like the carb pistons dash pots are jumping.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:32 pm
by kndw
terryt wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:09 pm
Are the carbs balance and set right. sounds like the carb pistons dash pots are jumping.
I'll check!

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:54 am
by DaveO430
kndw wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:56 pm
Nah... I cannot imagine that I adjusted them at the wrong T1: I would then have done it wrong several times in a row. Also, I'd imagine that with such a grave mistake I'd also hear valve noise when the engine is cold (see first video).

I followed the manual. First turn the engine to T1 such that both valves of cylinder 1 have some play. If they didn't, I turned the engine another round until I did feel play. Then I set the clearance such that a 0.1mm feeler would go in, but the next size (0.15mm) wouldn't.
OK, next best guess is rough spots on the cams and rocker arms.

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:49 am
by kndw
DaveO430 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:54 am
kndw wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:56 pm
Nah... I cannot imagine that I adjusted them at the wrong T1: I would then have done it wrong several times in a row. Also, I'd imagine that with such a grave mistake I'd also hear valve noise when the engine is cold (see first video).

I followed the manual. First turn the engine to T1 such that both valves of cylinder 1 have some play. If they didn't, I turned the engine another round until I did feel play. Then I set the clearance such that a 0.1mm feeler would go in, but the next size (0.15mm) wouldn't.
OK, next best guess is rough spots on the cams and rocker arms.
Yeah, I'm afraid that is going to be it. Thanks for the input!

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:43 am
by kndw
Meanwhile, I've done some more research on possible causes of this noise.

An interesting suggestion came from a friend who suggested to look at the frequency of the ticks, and compare it to the RPM: if the ticks are spaced at 1/2 the frequency of the RPM, it is something to do with the valves; if it is at the frequency of the RPM, it has something to do with the crankshaft. The bike idles at 1000 RPM, which is 16/2/3 Hz. I put the video in Adobe Audition, and got the spectrogram, which shows that the ticks are spaced 120ms apart, which is 8/1/3Hz... Anyway, I found this a scientifically interesting approach to validate that it is the valves.

Then I found that valve-like noise can actually also be an exhaust gasket leak. I tried this, and replaced the exhaust gaskets. DIdn't help.

So, still it seems that the rockers/camshaft are worn, or maybe there is play on a valve in its guide? I guess I'll be pulling the heads soon...

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:51 am
by DenverWinger
+1 on Adobe Audition - Wonderful software! :D Good diagnosis!

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:04 am
by Jim Garrett
Just a thought, but could it possibly be the fuel pump lever rattling against the end of the camshaft?

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:18 pm
by kndw
Jim Garrett wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:04 am
Just a thought, but could it possibly be the fuel pump lever rattling against the end of the camshaft?
Yes, interesting thought. This is consistent with the frequency of rotation of the camshaft, and I also installed a new aftermarket fuel pump, so it could fit. I didn't mention it, but I already tested this by re-installing the old fuel pump (which never had noise), and got the same noise :cry:

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:43 pm
by terryt
Have you done a compression test. could be a sticking valve

Re: If it sounds like the valves are too loose...

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:23 am
by kndw
terryt wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:43 pm
Have you done a compression test. could be a sticking valve
Nope, haven't done that. A sticking valve is when carbon build-up prevents the valve from opening/closing properly, right? I have had the heads rebuilt, with new (not OEM) valves, ~1000 km ago, so it is hard to imagine that that happened. However, this we'll also see when I pull the heads. I'll do this in the coming days.