Abnormal starting issue


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Ketchupsandwhich
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Abnormal starting issue

Post by Ketchupsandwhich »



So I have a 79 gl1000, feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. No matter what I seem to do the starter continues to run once the bike starts. I installed a killswitch to the battery since I already burnt up a starter. Also have burnt up two solenoids. I installed the dyna ignition, deleted the ballast by tying the two black wires together, and have checked for correct power with voltmeter.

The obvious answer is the solenoid is sticking, which it is, but I can't figure out why. I feel like I am getting too much amperage to it or something. I also upgraded to the ford solenoid and put the wire on the secondary coil on the inside that is usually grounded to the case to one of the small terminals so it functions as a normal solenoid would. I have tested the case and it is no longer grounded. I have also tested the start button, cleaned both that and the killswitch, even tore open the entire wiring harness from the front to the battery and there are no shorts or melted wires anywhere.

I took the cable off of the starter, and when I push the start button the solenoid functions as normal. As soon as I put the cable to the starter it just continues to run. I removed one of the leads from the small terminals, pushed the starter button and touched the wire to the terminal, bike starts and starter still continues to run, even with the starter switch button removed completely.

The ground cables are new and in the correct spot, I am at a loss right now and am wondering has anyone else had this happen? I don't think I have gotten that many faulty solenoids in a row, and the starter is working as it should. Is there any change the rectifier could be bad and maybe backfeeding into the circuit? Or anything else like that? The battery is only a month old so I doubt it is that. I was blowing main fuses and redid some of the solder connections to the rectifier. The PO deleted the entire plug so I am questioning the path of some of those wires, but am not blowing a main fuse anymore. I am about to just try a rectifier just for the heck of it, it's the only thing on the bike where the wires are possibly suspect but don't know if that could even cause this issue.

The fact that I touch and remove the wire for the starter switch, which energizes the secondary coil for the solenoid and it still continues to stick makes me think it has to be drawing too much power from somewhere. Any help is appreciated. I don't want to open up the parts cannon but I'm getting too frustrated. Also could a bad diode cause this? I tested them both and one was fine, the other was suspect but the lights they control seem to work.

My thoughts are new rectifier, I have a new clutch switch to put on, may as well, and that's all I can think of. I've isolated out everything else I think. Any ideas?

Brad


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Rambozo
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Rambozo »

Is this intermittent or does it do it every time you try to start it?
If you remove the starter relay coil wires and the starter still runs, it obviously has welded contacts.
The current would be more than your battery could produce to weld the contacts of an automotive solenoid, but it would be good to measure that anyway.
You can wire an indicator lamp across the coil of the solenoid so you can see if that is getting power from something.
Have you checked that the wiring matches the stock diagram? Previous owners have been known to really screw up wiring trying to add or fix something they don't understand.
Not seeing what you did to the ford solenoid, you could have made it self-locking. The Ford part is not an ideal replacement. There are plenty of other solenoids that are a better match as they have both leads of the coil on terminals and no ballast resistor bypass terminal like a Ford. However, there is also a flood of cheap starting solenoids that are meant for scooters marketed to GoldWings, and they would go bad in short order, and are often wired differently to boot.
This is a pretty basic circuit and should not be hard to figure out what is happening with some basic testing.
Ketchupsandwhich
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Ketchupsandwhich »

I believe it happens every time. I had been riding the bike for a few weeks but everytime I started it there was a chain noise, which I now believe was the starter not stopping right away and then the solenoid would finally let it go. That small one burnt up though so I switched to this big one, I may look at another but the rewire on it was simple, the second wire on the inside was grounded to the frame so I just moved it up to the lead on the terminal. The two small terminals have the small wires from the secondary coils, and when the plate moves up on the inside it just connects to the main lugs. Normally I would be suspect of that as well but I also burnt out two small solenoids and the original one that came on the bike so I am leaning towards it not being a solenoid issue somehow.

I don't have a lamp but I used a multimeter and it is all checking out good from what I can tell. With the starter disconnected I hit the start button, 12 volts goes to the starter wire, let go of the button and it drops back to zero. Solenoid has a very audible click because its huge. As soon as I actually connect the wire to the starter, it sticks.
Perhaps the current on the battery is too much? I got one of those sealed dry cell batteries but it was still made for the bike.

I ripped out a bunch of wires from the PO but were mostly for the bags and radios, those sorts of things. Following the diagram the rest looks quite original. The ignition switch harness was broken so there are two connectors soldered onto it, the black wire and the red wire. I wonder if I have them switched and if that would do anything? I can't find a picture of the connector but as it's wired now if looking from the left side of the bike I have the black on top and red on bottom. Do you know if that is correct? I figured the key just wouldn't work if those were backwards but maybe it could be doing something else.

It just seems like I have power to where I should, all lights and gauges work, nothing is blowing. I also replaced the brushes in the current starter but have a new one I can put on and try. I don't see why that would affect anything but the solenoid is only sticking when the starter is actually attached. With it disconnected I can press the solenoid as much as I want and it's fine, multimeter goes to zero, but as soon as I add the starter back in it sticks. I thought maybe a ground issue but I redid them all.
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Rambozo »

So put your multimeter across the two coil wires and hit the button with the starter hooked up. You should see the 12 volts when the button is pressed, see what happens when you release the button. If something is backfeeding you will see it.
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Starter is grounded because it is bolted to the engine. There should only be a power cable to the starter from the starter solenoid.

Picture of your starter solenoid connections would be good. Here is a picture of the wiring connections for the start solenoid. Take note of the placement:


The green/red and yellow/red wires can go to either terminal. There should be no continuity between these terminals when the ignition switch is in the OFF position, and no voltage on the yellow/red wire from the starter switch. Voltage on the yellow/red wire only when the ignition switch is in the ON position and starter button pressed.

Small test. Connect multimeter to green/red wire (this is the circuit ground wire) and to ground, should be no voltage. Key ON, push starter button, should register battery voltage.

When testing this, disconnect cable at starter.

The other two terminals should register battery voltage at all times. Honda was good at keeping wiring colour schemes the same.

Make sure the battery and starter cables are connected to the correct starter solenoid terminals, one should be marked with a "B" for battery. These can be different depending on the starter solenoid, but not generally.

Good Luck
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Ketchupsandwhich
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Ketchupsandwhich »

I will probe the starter end when I can, dark outside when I get home now.

I believe the diagram that is posted is for the small solenoid with 4 prongs and the fuse on top. Here is my setup and a diagram of how it is wired.


I also probe the yellow, zero volts, push the start button and get 12 volts. The green has .1 volts, not sure if that means anything.

The wires in my hand go to the hot part of the solenoid, one is also a fused power to a relay I wired in for the start stop switch, but with it disconnected the solenoid still sticks.

I was probing around and found this odd, with the cable disconnected from the starter, I probed the negative battery terminal and the post on the starter and the multimeter was showing 12 volts. Not sure how since I wasn't touching the positive terminal. Thoughts? Maybe I'm just overthinking things trying to figure this out.
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Rambozo »

If you are reading 12v from the battery neg to the starter post without a cable on it, you have a strange problem to diagnose, and need to find out why.
The Ford solenoid just adds more unknowns than it helps. I know you said you modified it to get the ground isolated, but the terminal you used is normally supplied with switched power from the battery. How that is done is different depending on the maker. Sometimes the main disc contacts the terminal, sometimes there is a diode inside the windings.
The Honda solenoid has a fuse to supply power to the bike and separate terminals for everything. It does the job fine and there is no real reason not to use it.
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Rambozo is correct, no need to modify the starter solenoid.

I notice that the yellow/red and green/red wires are there. The yellow/red is from the starter switch on the handle bar, the green/red is the ground from the starter solenoid to ground through the neutral switch to ground.

There should be a wire for the battery to the starter solenoid, one to the starter, one from the RR (generally a red/white wire), and one out to the ignition switch (red). picture of 1000 wiring:


As Rambozo mentions, you have a challenge with 12 VDC indicating when you check for voltage at the starter when it is disconnected from power. I take it that you checked for this with the key in the off position.

Check the cable to the starter and make sure it is good and nothing is connected to it - one cable to the starter from the starter solenoid - nothing attached to it, stranger things have happened. Disconnect the positive at the battery and check, you've still got power connected to the electrical system and somehow it is getting to the starter.

Hope this helps. Good luck.
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Ketchupsandwhich »

The inside of the Ford solenoid is just a coil winding with plunger that energizes and moves a copper washer up to contact the two main output poles. There was a copper extension one of the little posts to energize that post when the plunger came up, I ripped it off and put the other end of the coil wire there. Like I said though I really don't think the solenoid is the problem, I had the original stock one, a replacement with fuse attached and 4 posts, and now this one and they all do the same thing. There has to be power coming from somewhere else I just have yet to find where I suppose.

The 12 volt on the starter has to be some indication...it's dark when I get home so won't be able to troubleshoot till the weekend but I suppose I need to isolate components and see. I was not sure exactly how to do that, I want to disconnect the coils so they aren't powered the whole time, I just don't know if they need to be connected to complete the circuit for the key to work.

Can anyone post a picture of the harness connector on their ignition switch? Mine was mangled so I have two connectors I soldered on there but I want to make sure all of the colors are in the right places.
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Rambozo »

Ok. That makes it clear that you understand how the solenoid works and modified it appropriately.
Since the stock circuit breaks both the + and - to the coil, that means you may have more than a single problem.
Since this happens all the time, you should be able to track it down by measuring at various points. Maybe swap the starter with a headlight bulb as a dummy load so you can work on it without the starter running.
Have you removed the wire that goes from the solenoid to the starter and checked it? It sure sounds like something is connected to that wire, maybe something melted that is just touching it.
Most of these bikes are so old and the wiring so molested that starting from a clean slate isn't always a bad idea.
Ketchupsandwhich
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by Ketchupsandwhich »

Well I figured I would give an update. Problem seems fixed. It was not the solenoid. I changed a few things. Put copper plug wires on and also installed the electronic ignition getting rid of the points and condenser. The condenser looked in sad shape, was probably original. Also the neutral switch diode was completely shot, this may have allowed current to backfeed to the solenoid post keeping it open. Those are my best guesses but after doing those things it operates as it should.
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ct1500
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by ct1500 »

Typically the Ford starter relay would have an S and I denoting the small terminals, no grounding of those terminals. Some installations would only use one wire of the terminals (other not used) to energize and the metal mounting bracket is the ground and gets attached to a metal fender or has a ground wire off it to activate relay. But a faulty diode was the likely culprit.
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gl1000gol
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by gl1000gol »

Try back biasing a separate diode across the solenoid coil terminals. This would rapidly collapse the coil field voltage once power is removed from the engine start circuit.
(See attached diagram.)
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barm1234
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by barm1234 »

It could be a problem with the starter clutch that sticks momentarily after the releasing of the start button.
The following page discusses of that particular problem (symptoms and remedy).
https://www.randakksblog.com/gl1000-sta ... haul-tips/

Good luck,
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Re: Abnormal starting issue

Post by barm1234 »

Mmmmm, I didn't notice your problem was resolved when I wrote my previous reply..... But the starter clutch problem and the link might help other owners with a similar abnormal starting issue...


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