Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm


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J Runge
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Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:19 pm



Hi
First of all, I am from Denmark, so please excuse me, for bad gramma and poor spelling.

I hope one or some of you, can help me.

My 81 Goldwing (production year) struggles to turn the engine over, if I stop and tries to restart it after a few minuts, but only the first rev, after that initial rev it turns over as usual at starts right up.
If I wait for about 30 minuts or more, after stopping, there are no problems.

The Starter is 6 months old, and the problem has been there from the start. I have adjusted AFM and syncronised a year ago.
My own teori is, that the floaters might be badly adjusted, so that the carbs flood a cylinder do to a slight pressure in the gasline from the pump to the carb

Any ideas to explain this od problem.

My best
Jacob



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virgilmobile
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by virgilmobile » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:08 pm

If you think it may be leaking gas into a cylinder causing the cold start problem try to turn the fuel lever to off when the bike is not running.
Test this first...Run the bike ok..shut off the fuel...next day turn the fuel back on and see if it starts ok...
If it does ok,the fuel shut-off valves in the carburetors may be leaking.
Also..does this happen more often when the bike is on the side kickstand and starts better if left overnight on the centerstand?

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:54 pm

Hi Virgilmobile
Thank you for the reply.

The thing is (I may have explained it poorly) the problem only occures, 5-10 minuttes after it is turned off.If I leave it for 30 minuttes or more, it will start right op. I always place i on the centerstand over night so I actually do not know, if placing it on the sidestand will change anything.

Please let me know, if my answer makes no sence.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:58 pm

It struggles when it is warm.

Cold start, with choke, it turns over perfectly, at fires right up.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by virgilmobile » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:26 pm

Ok.
Question.When it's warm and you try to start it..does the "struggle to start" mean that it turns the engine over much slower than when it's cold?
Or does it turn over the same speed but does not start well?

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:08 pm

The first rev or so is much slower, and as soon its past the first one, it turns over like always, at fires right up.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by DaveO430 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:37 pm

Check the voltage at the starter when cranking. If it goes lower than 10v it could simply be the battery is weak or the connections are bad. If it stays above 10v and still cranks slow the starter is probably defective. Also check and clean the ground cable connection behind the left upper engine mount.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:55 am

Hi Dave
Thank you for your reply.
The starter is new, but that is no garanti for it to be fault free.
The groundconnection was cleaned less than a year ago.
I will try to messure the voltage, next time I come home from a run. I am just a bit confused, why it will turn over normally, right after it has been turned off, but not when 5-10 minuttes has passed.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by virgilmobile » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:39 am

Test...Turn the "kill" switch to OFF next time you attempt to start...

This will kill the spark.

It is possible the ignition advance mechanism is sticking..This would fire the cylinder too far before top dead center and cause the engine to have difficulty turning over by the starter.

When cold,the spark is set at 10° BTDC.

The mechanical advance moves it to (up to) 23° BTDC..if it sticks there it fires the cylinder too early causing it to almost stop turning over..Then it releases and moves back to 10° BTDC and it turns normal..

My best guess and easy to test.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:17 am

Hi Virgilmobile
Today i've testet the voltage at the moment of start. It drops belove 8V the first 1-2 seconds. If i try to start right after, it starts right up. The battery is most likely done. The battery is only about a year old, and it has never been low, so I do not know how it can have died so fast

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:19 am

virgilmobile wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:39 am
Test...Turn the "kill" switch to OFF next time you attempt to start...

This will kill the spark.

It is possible the ignition advance mechanism is sticking..This would fire the cylinder too far before top dead center and cause the engine to have difficulty turning over by the starter.

When cold,the spark is set at 10° BTDC.

The mechanical advance moves it to (up to) 23° BTDC..if it sticks there it fires the cylinder too early causing it to almost stop turning over..Then it releases and moves back to 10° BTDC and it turns normal..
My best guess and easy to test.

It do not sound like it ignites before it struggles.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by virgilmobile » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:34 am

8 volts is much too low..Was that measured directly at the battery posts?
Is the acid level in the battery full or low?
Also check the battery voltage when the bike is run for 10 minutes at 3000 rpm.
It should not be more than 14.5 volts.
Over charging a battery is bad.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:20 am

No, I measured between battery ground and the terminal on the starter. If I measure directly on the battery (when it does not struggle) it drops to 10'ish volt.

I just broke my starter solenoid :evil:
I had a chinaone in stock, but I had to relocate some wires to make it work.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by virgilmobile » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:28 am

Ok.it does sound like the battery is in poor condition.It is still important that you check the charging volts..
Batteries do not last long if under charged or over charged.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:34 am

Recently changed generator and rectifier. It charges with 14.2 volts at any load, above 3500 rpm

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by virgilmobile » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:12 pm

Sounds perfect.Good job.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:29 pm

The rectifier is handbuild. We used to have an electromechanic here inDenmark, called Erik Schnabel. He designed his own rectifier, and used a new principle. The rectifier do not short the stator, but opens the circuit instead. That insures that the stator and rectifier do not overheat. wich should make them last longer. When Erik died, the patent was sold, and the buyer improved the design, at these days it is called DiscSchnabel rectifiers. There is a model for most japanese and british motorcycles.
I also bought one for my wifes CBR 600. It was a bit difficult to replace the old one, but the result is great, and wurth the trouble

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virgilmobile
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by virgilmobile » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:14 pm

That is a great design.Better than original.Sometimes engineers can get stuck on one method and not think outside the box for other solutions.

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:18 pm

Exactly. And many aftermarket parts are poor copies of the originals.

The DiscSchnabel is a brilliant substitute in my opinion

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:31 am

Now more than ever, I am sure it is the battery. This cold but awesome autumm morning, the starter did not turn the engine over. It just made a horrible noice, second time it did the job. Hope the waranty will cover

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:09 am

I have contacted the store, were I bought the battery, after explaining the problem, they asked my to return the battery, and they will test it, and see if I should have a refund or a new battery. Just send it this morning, so no joyrides on the goldwing until it is resolved. :(

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by WingAdmin » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:33 pm

So did you get a result? Is the battery the culprit?

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:39 am

My home test indicated that the battery was bad, so i send it back, it was still covered by the waranty. A battery was sendt to me the day before yesterday, but with no message of the sellers action on this warantyclaim. I will not know anything, before the battery arrives. I will try to remember to give you an update.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:35 am

Battery has arrived, next step is getting battery acid, it didn't come with the battery
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by dingdong » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:12 am

That is more than likely a sealed AGM style battery. Just install and go for a ride. Don't try to open and add acid.


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