Is my starter going?

[johnny42]

This past season, occasionally when trying to start my bike (83 GL1100 Interstate and I'm the only owner) it would do like one or two "chugs" and since it didn't start, I let go of the starter button. Sometimes those "chugs" would be followed by a spinning/whirring sound and slowly stop. Other times, it would "chug" a couple times then fire right up. Other times, no problem, it just fires right up. One more...2 hour ride, stop for gas, try to start and I would sometimes get the one or 2 "chugs", like there's not enough power to turn the starter motor. Other times, fires right up.

The battery is good and strong.

I read all 13 pages on how to repair/replace the starter motor as well as where to obtain a good one. I've also read about the starter (sprag) clutch and doing the Seafoam trick.

Since I can't ride for another 4 months or so, I was wondering if this sounds like a starter issue or a clutch issue? One, I can work on now, the other I have to wait.

Any advice?

[DenverWinger]

Does sound like the starter is dragging, most likely worn brushes. Relatively easy to service and not very expensive either. Since it is still working (sort of) doubtful you will need to replace it, a new set of brushes, clean the commutator and lube the planetary gears should make that a happy unit again and will be able to spin the engine real good instead of just "groaning over".

But it does sound by your description that you may possibly be experiencing some sprague clutch issues too, or maybe not. These can be better identified once the starter motor is serviced and cranking the engine real good. The "spinning" you are hearing when you release the starter may simply be the engine was part way up a compression stroke when you release the starter and the compression spun the engine backward a little which will also spin the starter backward some until it coasts to a stop. Sprague clutch trouble symptoms will be starter spins when you hit start button but does not crank the engine.

Since you are still able to start the bike, I'd wait and see how it behaves with rebuilt starter. I don't know what oil you are using, but a 5w-40 oil (such as Shell Rotella T6) may be helpful to the clutch. Extra "runny" when cold. If you do notice starter clutch issues, next step would be to try the Seafoam. Worst comes to worst the engine needs to come out.

Not that hard to get the engine out of a 1100 depending on your mechanical experience, I can pull mine in about 3 beers and 2 hours. Good to have a helper around when the engine is ready to come out. If you determine you need to tackle the starter clutch, plan on a full weekend job. You may find other things you want to do "While I'm in there".

[johnny42]

Good advice Denverwinger. Thanks! You know, in all those 13 pages, i did not see anyone give specific info on what brushes this starter needs. Style, size, part number, etc. So here is what I found for the part number BRUSH SET, CARBON 31201-292-158 (amazing how many Honda's this fits). Some sites have a photo of this part showing exactly what it is.

I'm hoping my starter just needs a good clean and lube.

[Wilcoy02]

If it is the sprague clutch-- Is there info on how to fix it? My bike has been having this problem off and on for some time now.




With part numbers you can go to the Honda Auto dealer and find some parts cheaper than the bike dealer. Cars use some of the same parts as the bike.

[pocketchange]

If you are not worried about your battery, next thing to check is the starting system wiring..
Ebay has several small battery/starter system readers/checkers** cheap >).. pc

[johnny42]

Wingadmin posted this:

The problem you're describing has nothing to do with the starter, and everything to do with the sprag clutch. It's a very common problem, and is easy to fix. It's been covered many times before:

viewtopic.php?t=14084#p70266

viewtopic.php?t=15061

viewtopic.php?t=1335

[OldguyGlen]

Slow "chugs", like there's not enough battery to spin the engine (but the battery is good) is more likely the starter itself, rather than the sprag clutch part. Especially if the problem is more pronounced HOT rather than cold. You don't say how many miles, or if the starter has ever been serviced since 1983. Brushes should last 40k miles, but its a good idea to replace them even on low mile useage if you are going to open it up anyway. Cleaning of the commutator, and clean / re-lube bearing and planetary gear assembly are really the key items that will bring that starter back to life. The starter rebuild does not require the engine to come out... so clearly the place to start. Worry about the sprag clutch later.

[johnny42]

Original starter, never been worked on. 72,000 miles. I could clean, lube, etc and reinstall only to have the same problem. I may as well get new brushes and do it right to avoid removing it twice. But, I'll take off the starter and examine the parts. Some folks here complained of disintegrated wire insulation and cracked or cracking wires. Not sure if all wiring is part of the brushes or if there's other wires in there. I also see springs for the brushes on the parts diagram. Are new ones mandatory?

[OldguyGlen]

The brush kit you mentioned above is brushes only. I often re-use springs. There are also re-build kits with more pieces. Since it is off-season, I'd pull it apart and see what shape it's in. Then decide on what parts, or even consider a new, or re-built whole assembly. If the commutator is damaged beyond simple surface cleanup, it might not be a DIY project. Most cities have small independent starter / alternator re-build shops that can do more major rework.

[DenverWinger]

I'd say after 73000 miles and never serviced it most certainly needs brushes. A new set of brushes in mine a few yrs ago and I've never heard it crank over so good! (now 102k miles).

When I changed the brushes it was just barely groaning the engine over until the excess current draw due to bad brushes melted the internals of the starter relay and would no longer send juice to the starter. So needed a new relay and brushes. The Commutator on mine needed little cleaning, I just brightened up the copper a little, cleaned the gaps between commutator pads, lubed the gears and good to go.

[newday777]

I agree johnny42 that your starter needs to be refreshed which is the hot start problem.
Then, once you can get the bike out for a spring ride of at least a 100-200 mile ride, with a can of Seafoam and fresh oil to do the engine flush to fully heat up and melt the sludge in the starter sprag clutch, (keep it under 2,500 rpms), then drain the oil while it's still hot from the ride(be careful not to get burned!). Fresh oil and filter.
If you are trying to start it up in the frozen north winter in a cold storage area that is when the sprag clutch problems happen and the starter will spin the chain only and the sprag rollers won't spring out to engage to spin the motor over to fire it up.
Be sure to reply back on this thread as you get the work finished with updates so others can gain insights to fix their problem that read it later in the years to come.
BTW I had to rebuild my starter and do the Seafoam treatment back in 2009 when I brought my 83 back to life from it's 13 year sleep.
A fresh oil change in the fall before a winter nap of the bike is always the best preventive maintenance to reduce sludge buildup in the motor.
I usually do a Seafoam flush every couple of years as a preventive maintenance. It cleans the clutch plates and friction discs too.

[johnny42]

I'm not trying to rewrite the main DIY article. Just reporting a few of the things I encountered.....

60 degrees so I started... bike on the sidestand and then I removed the shift lever. The starter motor was held on by two bolts. The top one was a breeze. The bottom one was not. There's got to be some sort of small universal socket adaptor to facilitate removing it from that tight spot. I had a sort of universal end on a tool that helped. I'll check with Harbor freight for the right tool. The motor came away from its spot with a bit of wiggling and then the motor was easily removed from the bike. I didn't need to contort anything. I moved it toward the front of the bike and the gear cleared the engine with room to spare. (seems like this went easy for me compared to others on the main DIY thread.)

I was able to remove one of the long screws with a screwdriver. The second one slipped a bit which deformed the phillips pattern a bit. I ended up placing the motor in a vise (just enough to hold it in place) and used an impact driver to crack the other 2 screws. One tip here is to dab some valve grinding compound in the screw top to get more bite. (this also worked for me on my mirrors that didn't want to stay in place)

I tapped off the rear cover and saw a crazy amount of carbon powder. I had the 3 washers mentioned and they just slide off.

When I tried to get the armature out of the casing, it looked like there was not enough room to pull it out with those wires there. So I tried to move the wire a bit and a small bit of insulation was messed up. Not sure whether to just leave it as is or try to remove the loose bit.

My brushes are over 10mm long. The DIY article says to replace if 5.5mm or less.

Next up.... clean everything with mineral spirits and rubbing alcohol per the main article.

[Overdog]

My brushes were still within spec but the insulation was completely gone from the positive brush after cleaning.... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-BRUSH- ... 2749.l2649 I replaced the whole plate....cheap & easy. If you go that route save the screws...they don't give you new ones with the plate.

[johnny42]

Couple things...

The rubber o-ring won't come off the "front" cap. Instructions say to remove, clean and reuse. It's stuck and I think I'll destroy it if I try to remove it.

There appears to be a gasket on the "rear" cap. It's broken/torn. I don't see it on the original DIY thread nor is it mentioned there. There's no part shown in the starter diagram parts list. Wondering if it's mandatory? Again, not shown on WingAdmin thread nor mentioned.

[johnny42]

Another glitch... The DIY says to, "Remove the Circlip and push the shaft through the “head”. No way that's coming out. Circlip removed. I tried lightly on my vise and some taps with a hammer. It's not budging. I may have to simply clean the old grease and repack. Just need to know about that gasket.

[johnny42]

If the gasket is needed, I've seen folks make their own gaskets out of cereal boxes. Mine is definitely not rubber. It really looks like some sort of paper. They only caution about not using them in hi-heat applications like exhausts, etc. Anyone use a homemade cardboard gasket?

It looks like there's a bit of rust in that area. So it needs to be water tight. So a gasket will be needed.

[Overdog]

Another glitch... The DIY says to, "Remove the Circlip and push the shaft through the “head”. No way that's coming out. Circlip removed. I tried lightly on my vise and some taps with a hammer. It's not budging. I may have to simply clean the old grease and repack. Just need to know about that gasket.

I couldn't get mine apart either....cleaned off the old grease and loaded it up with fresh grease

[Overdog]

The commutator on mine looked as if it was painted black...much dirtier than yours. I cleaned it with fine emery cloth.

[froche]

If I cleaned mine with emery cloth I would use a pick to clean between them. When I raced slot cars (back in the late 60's) we cleaned the commutators using a 'lathe" and a fine cutting tool. Emery caused shorts by causing tiny pieces of copper to become embedded in the insulators between.

[johnny42]

Here's a couple things I encountered and remedied while doing this.

When I removed the front cover (with protruding gear), there was some sort of gasket material that was broken and came apart. There is no part shown in the starter motor parts picture nor mentioned in this thread. I removed the remnants from the top and bottom and fashioned a replacement out of a Kashi cereal box. Took me 2 tries, but I was happy with my fabricated part.

I chose not to remove the large o-ring on the rear cover. It seemed stuck and I just know if I attempted to remove it, I would break it. Same with the o-ring that seals the actual motor into the engine itself.

I placed a shop rag under the lower mounting bolt and above the exhaust pipes. Mine, of course, would have fallen into the space between the heat shields and pipe if I hadn't.

A 1/4 inch drive universal socket adaptor made installing that lower mounting bolt a breeze. Again, shop rag below and a dab of grease between the bolt head and socket to keep the bolt on the socket while trying to get that bolt started. Can't do it with your fingers. I had to lift up on the rear of the motor to align the hole.

I bench tested the motor before installing it, spins great. The real test will be in a few months when my Wing comes out of hibernation.

Bike back on the center stand with both wheels off the ground. Job done!!

Here's a picture of my mounted gasket and a picture of the only parts I needed to buy.

[Joneszy]

Once having used a JIS screwdriver I will never again use a phillips screwdriver on my bikes again. There is not and I repeat not a phillips head to deform they are JIS and can be recognized by the small dot punched on the top of the screw head. Buy yourself a JIS screwdriver or one with different sized heads as I did and you will instantly feel the difference in the grip of the driver. I used to strip what I called phillips screw heads, no longer!

[johnny42]

I've known about JIS tips for a while but did without. I'm about to get at least a #2. But....
Can I assume the screwdriver that comes with the Goldwing toolkit is JIS?

[Joneszy]

Hey Johnny just in from the shop where I compared my JIS screwdrivers and the screwdrivers that came with my 83 Aspencade. I have no idea why but the 2 in the oem set are identical to the relatively new phillips (good quality) screwdrivers that I own. The JIS screwdrivers that I really like seem to have a slightly different tip bevel length. I am surprised that the screwdrivers in the oem kit appear to be phillips and never thought to check until you asked the question. The 83 aspencade screwdrivers have never been used to my knowledge and appear to be in new condition.

[Wilcoy02]

Don't you think it is time for a new thread?

What does this have to do with starters?