85 limited running horrible, HELP!


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quick89ta
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Motorcycle: 1985Honda Goldwing Limited

85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »



Hey guys, i have a 1985 goldwing limited with the cfi. this thing is driving me crazy. It is using gas like crazy, getting fuel in the crankcase and blowing black smoke all the time. really bad when you try to accelerate. I have checked what i know to check. fuel filter, vac lines, that i can see anyway. It fires right up when you hit the starter but instantly starts chugging and lugging and trying to cut off. No engine lights on the dash and no indicator led's on the computer under the trunk. When i first turn the key on, all the little led's come on and then go off after about 1.5-2 seconds. Im lost. Any and all help or advice is deeply appreciated. Thanks....



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Rusty Bike
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by Rusty Bike »

That much gas running down the cylinders is not good. Fuel will wash away oil and your cylinders/piston may score. I would run a compression check before getting into it just to see if you still have a good engine. If you don't have the 84-87 manual and the LTD/SEI supplement, go to Ebay and buy them. These systems are complex. Now, I'm no pro but I do have the SEi. My only thought is a bad throttle positioning sensor. The TPS is on the front left side of engine and is actuated by the left throttle shaft. Voltage tests are needed using a quality/accurate meter, before the TPS can be condemned. See Manual. OEM TPS is hard to source but there is an automotive substitute that will work. Search this site and Google for more info. Good luck...Rusty

quick89ta
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »

Thanks for the info Rusty. I have checked compression and am sitting around 133, plus or minus a pound or two. I did a digital sweep on the TPS and showed no glitches. With a analog meter, it was nice and smooth. bike runs really rough at idle but out on the road at 60-7- mph, it runs really goo, just have the black smoking problem from being to rich. Soots the plugs up pretty quick too. Do you think this a problem that a coolant temp sensor could cause? do these bikes have a map on them? I have looked but havent found one. Thanks again for you help and input......

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virgilmobile
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by virgilmobile »

Question.
Does it soot all 4 plugs?

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virgilmobile
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by virgilmobile »

Another question.
Has the fuel pressure on the injectors been measured?

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virgilmobile
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by virgilmobile »

One more comment.
All the "sensors" are monitored by the module.Including the temp sensor.If it were bad,you would have a error led showing.
The sensors are supposed to be provided a stable 5 volt power from this module.
Do locate a sensor 5 volt line and measure this voltage.It must be very close.Expect it to be stable from 4.75 to 5.25 volts.No more,no less.
This is critical for the module to get the proper sensor input voltage.Just 1 silly volt off and the module tries to dump more fuel to satisfy the specs.
I have seen this voltage in the 3.8 volt range caused by a poor connection at the module badly affect the bike the same way.It was ultimately causing the injectors to stay open longer than needed.The sensors were sending the wrong signals to the module.

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virgilmobile
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by virgilmobile »

Another comment to mull over.
This may or not be related.If the module is being powered by a poor bikes electrical system,all bets of a stable CFI are off.
You could test this by starting and testing the bike with the regulator module unplugged.
For a short time.
If the charging system is out of specs (12.8-14.4 volts) or noisy,CFI errors can happen.
Case in point.My 99 explorer ran badly, threw codes...the alternator charged properly but had a lot of "noise/voltage spikes" on it.
It ran fine after just replacing the alternator.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Agree with virgilmobile - EFI bikes/cars need good constant voltage. These '85 LTDs are power hungry and need lots of power hence the 500 watt stator versus the 350 watt stator of the carb models. The TPS is voltage sensitive as well. It needs to be within spec. The voltage on mine is close to the upper limit at 5.25 VDC, unless it goes higher I can live with the reading. I will be looking into sync of the throttle bodies. The procedure is well detailed in the Clymer and OEM service manuals.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

quick89ta
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »

Thanks for all the comments and ideas to check. It does soot all 4 plugs. equally. Loads up really bad. I have not checked the fuel pressure at the injectors. I did unplug the vac line on the fuel pressure reg and made no diff. No fuel in the vac line or coming from the regulator. I will check the sensor voltage tomorrow. Can i check it on any of them just to ensure thats its in the correct range? This bike has also had the alt upgrade. voltage pretty much stays at 12.6 and above. The upgrade was done before i got it so i assume it was done correctly. I also found the big plug in where the stator had been plugged in. It is just hanging with nothing plugged into it. Is that normal? I checked and it has batt voltage on it and the grounds are also working but just seems odd that is just left with nothing plugged into it. I would think that would be an important part of the electrical system as well. Thanks for all the input. If you think of anything else i can look into or if you need any more info on my end, let me know and i will get it for you asap. Thanks again for all the help! Ron ps. I hope i figure it out soon, i miss riding...lol.

quick89ta
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »

One more thing i just remembered, the bike has sat for awhile too. Not sure how long exactly. All wiring looks good tho, not chewed up. Is it possible that all 4 injectors are gummed up and not cycling but just dumping fuel? I know that sounds crazy but was just thinking if the pintles in there are possibly not closing. Just constantly spraying??? Long shot but its driving me crazy.........Thanks again Rusty, Virgilmobile and rednaxs60....i appreciate it

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Rednaxs60
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Did the alt mod on my '85 LTD a few months ago. Removed the old stator and RR wiring as well.

The old wires will probably have power going to them. The red-white striped wire will be live at the connector because it is spliced into the red wire from the starter solenoid to the ignition switch about half way between the RR and starter solenoid in the main wire harness. I suspect that this was done so that most of the power generated by the stator would go to the electrical system to operate the bike, whatever is left over goes to the battery for storage. When the bike is at idle the battery takes over and provides power to operate the bike.

Here is a picture of the wiring harness splice for the red and red-white striped wires:


The best way to ensure there is no power at the red-white wire from the RR is to run a new red power wire from the starter to the ignition switch, or open up the wire harness and remove the old red-white RR wires. I cut the red wire to the ignition switch at the cold splice and ran a new wire back to the starter solenoid. A the same time I removed the red-white striped wire from the harness.

For the yellow stator wires, I would cut them off at the plug where the wires exit the rear engine case, leaving enough wire to cap ensuring that these wires cannot touch or be touched by anything. The old stator, if still installed, can still generate power if the circuit is completed.

The ground wires can be deadheaded and capped off as well, as can the black sensing wire.

Regarding the TPS, I cut the wires from the TPS in the engine compartment, spliced in new wires to the connector under the false tank and installed takeoffs that I hide under the travel computer so that I can test the TPS if necessary.

Here is how I tested the TPS with the wire colours identified:

"Had mentioned that I had installed test "taps" in the wiring for the throttle position sensor (TPS). The TPS has four tests that can be done. The wires from the TPS are red, green and light green with stripe. The manual calls for a white wire for testing. This is the same as the light green wire.

1. Input/output voltage - 4.75V to 5.25V - checked between the green (grd) and red wires
2. Voltage rise on throttle opening - to rise smoothly - checked between green (grd) and white (light green marked) wires
3. Throttle arm voltage inspection - a 2.9mm (0.11 in) gauge is inserted between the throttle arm and throttle stop screw - output voltage to be 0.475V to 0.495V -
4. TPS resistance - sensor resistance 4-6 K ohms - checked between green (grd) and red wires - this procedure requires the harness from the TPS to be disconnected at the connector under the false tank

I did test 1 and 2. The input/output voltage is steady at 5V. The voltage rise on throttle opening appears to me to be quite smooth; ergo, pass. May do the others when I have the false tank off."

Here is a picture of the TPS connector under the false tank - pencil shows the connector:


Here is a picture of the TPS takeoffs for testing under the travel computer:


The red arrow points to the takeoffs.

Still in the process of addressing all the issues with my bike such as injector sync and the likes.

Hope this helps. Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

quick89ta
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »

Thanks for the great info Rednaxs60. Tps tests ok. Gonna run the other wires(red and red/white) from the old stator plug and rework or eliminate them from the harness. Still running things down and will updaye as i go. Really only have time on the weekend to work on it. Thanks again to everyone for all the input and ideas! I appreciate it....Ron

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blaffoon
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by blaffoon »

Hi quick 89ta, please keep us posted on any findings on your Ltd. I have a clone setting in my garage right now with identical problem. I would greatly appreciate it. I have an 83 that runs like a champ. I'm beginning to wonder if I should have picked up this 85 as the fuel injection is a pain to work on.

quick89ta
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »

I agree blaffoon, lol. Im steadily trying to figure it out. If it was a car, i would bet it had a bad map sensor. thats just how this thing is acting. Wish i could figure out how to convert it to a map system, if thats even possible. I will post as i go, hopefully i will run across the problem before long. Riding weather is slowly passing me by...lol... Ron

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blaffoon
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by blaffoon »

I have done some testing on mine but probably not as much as you have. I was thinking that my problem was the TPS. Except it seems to test ok except for the resistance/ohms. Ron have you tested the TPS resistance on yours and if so recall what yours is? If I recall the last time I worked on it mine was about half or around 2.3 ohms. I wasn't sure if this could be enough to be the problem. I'm hoping to get in the mood again to attack it again and I'll check it for sure. Thank You... Brian

quick89ta
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »

I did check it, just today. The reading was 4.6 which falls into the spec range. Now check this out, i said earlier that it acts like a map sensor. Well, i took the 2 vac lines off the pb sensors, made a t fitting with more vac lines and started the bike. idling like crap, well as i applied vac to the sensors, idle came up and started cleaning itself up! Just like a bad map! I replaced the vac lines on both sides in case of a breakage somewhere that i couldnt see, hooked it all back up. Fired up the bike and it loads up and runs like crap. Applied vac again, just a couple of inches, and starts clearing up and idles like its new. cleaned the ports on the intake elbows just below the injectors and nothing. runs like crap unless i manually apply vac to the sensors. Gonna check into it more tomorrow. this thing is kicking my butt tonight...lol. Ron

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blaffoon
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by blaffoon »

Yea Ron your right it sure acts like a map sensor. Interesting why the pb's aren't getting enough vacuum from the intakes. If I come across anything I certainly will share.

quick89ta
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »

Been awhile since i posted. Small update. I have the bike running better. The biggest improvement came from the replacement of the tps. A little tricky to change, but i got it. I also installed a new set of plugs. It is still not perfect, but way better than it was. Have some more work to do to it this winter and hopefully will be ready for some riding this spring! Will update as i make progress. Thanks for all the help and advice from other members on here. You all have been very helpful. !!

quick89ta
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »

One more crazy thought i have had. Has anyone switched over to a single carb set up from the fuel injection? Seems like it would eliminate alot of headaches..... Input or thoughts? Thanks...

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blaffoon
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by blaffoon »

Hey Ron thank you for posting your update. I will be swapping out the tps on mine... Winter project. It's the only thing I can conclude to. I do remember someone converting to single carb. I think it might have been on the Steve Saunders site. I will see if I can dig anything up on it.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Been following this and have another suggestion. Have you looked into throttle valve cleaning and synchronization. There is a section in the Clymer (section 7) and OEM manuals on this. Your comments on the vacuum to the Pb sensors may be impacted because of dirty throttle vvs and synchronization considering that vacuum has to be developed for the system by the engine itself as there is no vacuum pump. The schematic on the computerized fuel injection system shows the Pb sensors getting vacuum from the intake manifold after the throttle valve.

I have the manuals electronically if you would like. If you PM me I can send via wetransfer.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Saskrider
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by Saskrider »

I do think you're onto something with the PB's. If you have the sup manual go through the steps in it for the PB system carefully. It's time consuming but can show a lot of small problems, especially if you do the calculations for voltage based on altitude and temperature. some other things to think about though... Do you get high idle when the bike is cold? There is a thermostatically operated air valve which acts as a choke while the bike is cold. There is a sensor on this valve which tells the computer when it's open (cold) and in turn lengthens the duration of injector opening, thus richening the mixture. As the coolant temp rises it closes the valve and 'closes the choke', the computer recognizes this and gives less fuel (the coolant temp sensor has the same effect so that's something else to check). If this valve is stuck or the sensor has failed it could be telling the injection system that it needs more fuel. On my LTD this valve was stuck open, as a result I removed the valve and installed a small plastic ball valve inline which now acts as a manual choke and I have no problems. Also with the TPS, I had to modify first to the honda car mod (which ended up not holding up and I switched to the BEI/Mouser tps) I set the throttle body opening to the spec in the sup manual and set the tps voltage within book spec. I found that I was still running fairly rich. Now understanding the CFI system it is a fairly redundant system. It has no idea how the engine is actually running, all it knows is what fuel curve to send it as the voltages change on specific sensors and doesn't actually recognize the effects on it (no o2 sensor to know how it's burning). Because of this the tps can actually be set down to .400 vdc before the system will throw a code for it being out of range. This means we can trick the system into running much leaner by increasing the opening on the throttle body and shortening the injector duration by reducing the tps voltage which in effect shortens the fuel curve. I found that if I set mine down around .440-.450 vdc I get good plug burn with proper timing curve on the electrode and get about 3-4 mpg more. You can play around with it to suit your bike, just make sure you check plugs regularly until you find a happy spot for it.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Saskrider - you mention that the adjustment to the TPS affected the fuel burn and the plug colour of the bike. When you see a colour chart for plugs, it is recommended that the plugs be a light to medium chocolate brown colour when operating correctly.

When I was involved in snowmobiling, it was not unusual for plugs to consistently be black in colour from burning too rich. OEMs do not want to change this because it sort of protects us from ourselves, and them of course. Since my snowmobiles were outside warranty, I adjusted the fuel/oil mixture to get the appropriate spark plug colour, made a huge difference in performance.

From what you say in your post, the same can be done with the fuel injected LTD/SEi by adjusting the TPS closer to, or just slightly lower than the OEM low end recommendation. Good to know.

Thanks for the info, and doing the actual trial.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

quick89ta
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by quick89ta »

Hey guys, thanks for the info and tips. I will definitely be looking in to dropping the tps voltage and seeing how it runs. The throttle body balance will also get checked. I will getting back to it after the holidays. hopefully i can get this thing lined out! Thanks again...PS> I forgot to mention that it ALMOST sounds like it has a vac leak down around the engine under the plenum. gotta dive into that more as well. Maybe throwing off the signal to the PB system?

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Rusty Bike
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Re: 85 limited running horrible, HELP!

Post by Rusty Bike »

Hmm, this is all very interesting. My way of finding vacuum leaks is with a propane torch. Start the engine and let idle. Turn the propane on but don't light the torch. Pass the torch tip over any suspected leak. Any vacuum leak will suck in the propane and increase idle speed. That is my small contribution to this thread. Thanks so much for sharing with us...



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