Guestions: starter motor


Information and questions on GL1200 Goldwings (1984-1987)
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trhaag
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Guestions: starter motor

Post by trhaag »



I have a problem with the starter. When cold it runs around without turning the engine. Why? Can I do anything without taking the engine out? 8-)



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Rednaxs60
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Re: Guestions: starter motor

Post by Rednaxs60 »

The starter clutch is not engaging. The rollers, pins and springs are probably gummed up from years of use. This is oil lubricated, but does not get a lot of flow in this area of the rear case. You can try an oil flush using SeaFoam, ATF, and such but this is treating the symptoms and not the issue; however, people have done this and had good results. To fix it permanently you should remove the engine and replace the rollers, springs (these are similar to ball point pen springs) and pins.

Another suggestion was to ensure that your battery is fully charged and the starter is spinning the engine quite well. If the starter is not spinning the engine fast enough and the clutch is a bit gummed up it is possible the rollers are not being "thrown" out and engaging. Something to consider.

A permanent fix is the best and this requires removal of the engine.

Hope this provides some food for thought.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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trhaag
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Re: Guestions: starter motor

Post by trhaag »

Ok I thought so. Many thanks for the reply. I'll try your suggestions. When poblemet becomes serious, I will take the motor out. :shock:

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WingAdmin
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Re: Guestions: starter motor

Post by WingAdmin »

Rednaxs60 wrote:The starter clutch is not engaging. The rollers, pins and springs are probably gummed up from years of use. This is oil lubricated, but does not get a lot of flow in this area of the rear case. You can try an oil flush using SeaFoam, ATF, and such but this is treating the symptoms and not the issue; however, people have done this and had good results. To fix it permanently you should remove the engine and replace the rollers, springs (these are similar to ball point pen springs) and pins.
Actually it is fixing the issue, not the symptoms.

The problem is that the reduced oil flow allows sludge to build up in the sprags on the starter clutch. This prevents the little rollers and springs from properly engaging.

Flushing the crankcase with a solvent helps to dissolve this sludge, allowing the sprags to work correctly again. Frequent and timely oil changes will help prevent it in future.

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Maz
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Re: Guestions: starter motor

Post by Maz »

WingAdmin wrote:
Rednaxs60 wrote:The starter clutch is not engaging. The rollers, pins and springs are probably gummed up from years of use. This is oil lubricated, but does not get a lot of flow in this area of the rear case. You can try an oil flush using SeaFoam, ATF, and such but this is treating the symptoms and not the issue; however, people have done this and had good results. To fix it permanently you should remove the engine and replace the rollers, springs (these are similar to ball point pen springs) and pins.
Actually it is fixing the issue, not the symptoms.

The problem is that the reduced oil flow allows sludge to build up in the sprags on the starter clutch. This prevents the little rollers and springs from properly engaging.

Flushing the crankcase with a solvent helps to dissolve this sludge, allowing the sprags to work correctly again. Frequent and timely oil changes will help prevent it in future.
Just to add my bit to this thread, I believe there are two causes for this "ramp and roller" clutch to slip - One is sludge/wear in the springs and pins, reducing spring pressure, which stops the rollers riding up the internal ramp in the starter gear and the second is that, over the years, the rollers and the surface on which they run, become highly polished and prevent the rollers from gripping. I had the same problem on my '79 cb750 and, as the starter clutch is very easy to get to, I stripped and studied it's components very closely to establish exactly how it works . I replaced the pins and springs but it still slipped occasionally. I stripped it again and treated the rollers and the surface on which they run to a light treatment with fine Emery cloth, to get rid of the highly polished surface and leave a satin finish. It has never slipped again in the last 5 years. Obviously, on our 'Wings, the system is much more difficult to access so, if you ever have the engine out of the frame, spend an extra hour on this area to keep the clutch gripping.
Incidentally, the speed of the starter doesn't matter. The rollers are not "thrown out" by centrifugal force. If you hold one of these clutches in your hands you will see how it works and you can turn it as slow as you like and it will "lock" in one direction.
Maz
Ironically, Common Sense is the LEAST common of all senses!

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WingAdmin
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Re: Guestions: starter motor

Post by WingAdmin »

Maz wrote:Incidentally, the speed of the starter doesn't matter. The rollers are not "thrown out" by centrifugal force. If you hold one of these clutches in your hands you will see how it works and you can turn it as slow as you like and it will "lock" in one direction.
Maz
Correct. That's why you can hold the starter button in even when the engine is already running and do no damage. In fact, many owners have found that their starter relay contacts welded shut during the start without their knowledge, causing the starter to run the whole time they were riding. They only discovered this when they tried to shut the bike off, and when the engine shut down, the starter sprags re-engaged and continued to crank the engine over. No damage is done, once the starter relay was replaced everything works fine again.

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ekvh
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Re: Guestions: starter motor

Post by ekvh »

One problem with a good oil flush is that this part of the motor is quite high and not much oil gets up there. Personally I like to start mine up and then pick it up and turn it upside down to let the oil get up in the rollers. Works great but tough on my back. Also, without actually pulling the motor, you don't know if it's gummed up or if the rollers are worn flat.

Okay, so that won't work. Adding some kind of cleaner to the oil isn't great either because you aren't supposed to put the motor under much of a load with this mixture in the oil. So, what to do? I take mine for an easy ride, but slowwwly bring the rpm up in a lower gear. This increases the likelihood that oil will splash up and help clean the area. It works for mine, but every cold snap or after sitting a while it has trouble engaging.

I am waiting until I have another reason to pull the motor to check it.

Another suggestion is to place a heat source near the static to warm that area up if it's cold.



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