86 SEi, gas in oil.


Information and questions on GL1200 Goldwings (1984-1987)
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Rusty Bike
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86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »



Bike has intermittan miss at crusing speed. Stumbles and pops when starting out from a stop. There is gas in the oil. Probably about 2 quarts at this point. I think this bike has been putting gas in the oil since I got it. Yes I know the consequences. :( I did set the TPS last summer when I went thru the bike. This is a fuel injected engine, no carburetors. Any ideas what is going on here? Thanks
PS, I have NO lights lit on the ECU. The "W" light is not lit, according to the SEI supliment manual, it should be lit. Don't know what that means.



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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by twocams »

A lot of fuel injected engines route the gas back to the gas tank or...... Once the injector fires the excess gas is rerouted. And I dont know if these old bikes do or not. maybe a place to look.

twocams

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Gas in oil? The only way gas can get into the oil on an FI is to go back through the rings (leaking injectors?) when it is not operating. I would do a fuel system pressure test to see what is happening in this regard.

The TPS would only come into play once the bike is started.

The fuel pump puts out more volume than needed and the excess goes through the pressure regulating valve back to the tank (at the front of the tank). If you take the gas cap off, you can see the fuel being returned to the tank. The fuel pressure regulating valve is behind the CFI cover on the right side - vacuum operated. The fuel pressure at rest, key on bike not started (system pressurized) is 34 to 38 PSI, when started 28 to 34 PSI.

You have identified exactly what I have been looking into for the past month - have had other commitments that have taken up time as well, but I do have my 1800 to ride in the meantime.

I went back to Ontario for my sister's 65th and while there I robbed the bike I have there of the TPS, PB, and Gr/Gl sensors. I also had the original injectors cleaned and flow matched. I thought it might be the fuel pump so I ordered and installed a Spectra SP1186 that is for an external mount - not in fuel tank. The Airtex E8312 that I had installed is to be installed in a fuel tank that I presume is for cooling; however, worked well externally.

The symptoms are similar to yours, operates fairly well when cold, but when at operating temperature, there is a definite stumble/miss until around 3,000 Rpm then not too bad but there is still a miss. No error codes on the ECU, so something is not right, but good enough that the ECU trouble codes are not triggered. Did the troubleshooting by replacement, but one at a time to try and isolate the fault.

New Spectra fuel pump, no change. Installed original injectors, no change. Left these two items installed.

Swapped out Gr/Gl sensors (rear of right cylinder head), no change - original put back in.
Swapped out PB sensors, no change - original hooked back up.
Swapped out TPS, no change. Left installed.

Only sensor I did not swap out was the Ns sensor (crankshaft) because of location; however, did the resistance check - within spec. Did the continuity check, one leg shows continuity. Did some perusing of different forum threads and found a lot of information regarding this as well as the original thread where the PO changed my Ns Sensor. Ordered a PG sensor for ab' 85 Aspy/Interstate and will install (have the front of the bike off now). The Ns sensor installed on my bike was from a 1500 and done by the PO. Met him as well. Hoping this does the trick. Have a thread on this but will let you know.

A check for the PB sensors is to start the bike then disconnect one of the PB sensors. If the bike stays running, the sensor is good. Shut down, reconnect the PB sensor. Start bike then disconnect second sensor, bike stay running PB sensor good. Actually trialed this. The Gr/Gl sensors are supposed to do the same but not as easy to do - haven't tried this.

Here is some lite reading for you:

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-g ... fixed.html
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-g ... rator.html
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-g ... ensor.html

Hope this helps. Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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paneled
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by paneled »

I have an sei when I got mine the vacuum lines to the pb sensors were
old tired and cracking causing vacuum leaks to sensors which will make your
bike run rich, and also crappy, I replaced all vacuum lines to both sensors and
it made a world of difference on how it runs.
86 aspy sei
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »

Yes, leaking injectors. I have been thinking the same thing. I mentioned a while back that the bike loads up when it is shut off for a short time then restarted. You may remember that post. This only happens when bike is hot. I park bike on side stand so only right cylinders would be running fuel into crank case. You would think the thing would hydrolock on the left cylinders if all injectors were leaking when parked. Starts up fine, hot or cold. I feel the non-vented gas tank builds up pressure with a hot engine and fuel blows past injectors when shut down. I have no way to test this theory yet. Can excessive fuel get past rings when an engine is running? Rednax, who rebuilt your injectors? I see new injectors are available but according to Honda, they must be shimmed for proper install. PITAss. I like this bike but don't really understand the fuel system or ECU operation. The manual gives troubleshooting procedures but does a poor job of explaining the function and interaction of the system components. I am researching general injector info now. Pulled lower fairings yesterday and checked spark on all cylinders with my timing light. Thay all look to fireing the same. I just put my Valkyrie on the road so have a bike to ride. Now to fix this GW.

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Thankfully I have a second bike as well, my 1800. Always good to have a second ride.

The fellow that did my injectors is in Barrie, Ontario - same city as my sister. Went back for her 65th birthday and he was located not too far from her place. Called Fuel Injector Spa: http://fuelinjectorspa.ca/

Excess fuel should not be getting past the rings when the engine is running. Shimming of the injectors is not a lot. Keep the shims from the original injectors and mark which cylinder they are for. I'm not using any right now.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »

I just droped my 06 Subaru Forester off at the mechannics. (long time foreign car guy) I asked if early Honda injectors leak when shut off. He said "Definatly, they'll drain the fuel rail right into the crank case"! I asked about a rich condition when running, getting past rings, he said no. He said pull the injectors, hit them with 12 VDC to cycle while blasting fuel path with air. I'll add some carb cleaner to that formula. I picked up 4 quarts of cheep 10W40 for testing. And Awayyyy...We Go.
PS: I'll check those vac lines also...Thanks folks.

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »

Ok, found loose fitting vac line for the PBR sensor at the T down on the intake manifold tube. That is a simple fix if I can find metric vaccume hose. Oil in crankcase problem: I pulled the #4 injector. Did not appear to be leaking when carb cleaner was left setting in it. The super fine screen in the top of the injector is clean. I gave it a few shots of Berrymans carb cleaner then cycled it with a 12 V battery while hitting it with air. Nice fine mist comes from nozzle, kind of a round pattern. BTW, this bike has 47,000 miles on it. Just broken in! I did notice something about the injector. The green tip will move in and out of the injector body about 1mm. I found this when I applied air to the green end and it jumped up a little. Don't know if this is normal??? i have not pulled the other injectors yet. I figure do these one at a time. No corrosion on the plug or pins. This bike is pretty much a virgin. I don't think anybody ever messed with the Engine control system. What do you think about the green injector tip being able to move in and out a little? My car mechanic stated that Honda used Bosch injectors. Thanks for the input...Rusty

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

I would surmise that the pintle has to move to allow fuel through, hence the internal coil when energized, draws the pintle up and into the injector to allow fuel to flow through. No different then a relay that when energized the coil closes the internal switch to allow electricity to flow.

Good news on the not leaking aspect. Now to check the other ones.

Cheers
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »

No, No, the pintal is the tiny steel pin that is actually a valve. It moves when the battery voltage is applied. What i mean is the whole green plastic tip that surounds the pintal will move in and out of the body of the injector. I can grab it with my fingers and push in and pull out about 1mm. Not too sure that is normal. We'll see how the other ones look as you said. Thanks for the help, you have been thru this. Your injector rebuild did not help the preformance issues, is that correct?
Note: I noticed that Rock Auto has presure sensors that look the same as ours. (PBR/L) These are for the 86 Prelude 2.0 engine.

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by twocams »

Be careful of the nozzle on fuel injectors. Some can inject up to 2000 PSI. When I was in the Air Force ( 20 yrs) one of the auto mechanics was messing with an injector. It had fuel in it and loaded. It shot fuel into his hand under pressure, into his blood stream. They almost had to amputate his hand.I think It was a diesel injector. Just dont be messing with the nozzle tips with bare hands. :o

twocams

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Rusty Bike wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:31 pm
No, No, the pintal is the tiny steel pin that is actually a valve. It moves when the battery voltage is applied. What i mean is the whole green plastic tip that surounds the pintal will move in and out of the body of the injector. I can grab it with my fingers and push in and pull out about 1mm. Not too sure that is normal. We'll see how the other ones look as you said. Thanks for the help, you have been thru this. Your injector rebuild did not help the preformance issues, is that correct?
Note: I noticed that Rock Auto has presure sensors that look the same as ours. (PBR/L) These are for the 86 Prelude 2.0 engine.
The pintal cap should not move. Believe you have a defective injector, needs to be replaced.

As for the cleaning of mine, my primary reason was to get them cleaned and back to original operating condition. Fuels nowadays are not the cleanest.

Will be having the second set I have cleaned and flow tested as well this fall.

I did expect better operation such as proper fuel input and amount. The spray pattern is not that important, but having the fuel directed to where it is to go is best. Having the fuel impinge on the wall surfaces etc does not get the fuel to where it is needed.

Also looked at the PB sensor you mention. $267.00 USD - I was sitting down. I ran my bike with a vacuum gauge attached to the PB sensor. The maximum vacuum is about 10 to 12 inches at approximately 3000 RPM. After this the PB sensor does not influence the FI system.

Good luck with the remaining injectors.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »


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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Nice find. Read on the CX500-650 forum where MAP sensors from late model Suzuki bikes will work as well. The technology inside these units has evolved over the years.

Chjeers
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »

OK, I pulled all 4 injectors and rigged up a bench test with some 3/8 fuel line and the air compressor. Filled test line with cab cleaner B-12 and applied 30 PSI. I found no leaks. Whan pulsing 12VDC to the injectors, only one worked well as in a nice round uniform spray pattern that was repeatable. The other 3 injectors had random crappy spray patterns. The spray patterns were constantly changeing. All injector coils ohmed out at 1.8 ohms so that looks OK. I ordered rebuilt injectors and seals from Rock Auto. About 22 bucks each. http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php ... 9704&jsn=8
I still do not know how fuel is getting into the crank case but judging by the random spray pattern the injectors are giveing me, I feel they could leak at any given time. Who knows. I also checked the fuel pressure regulator for a leaky diaphram which could let fuel into the intake runner. Diaphram checks good with Mityvac. Does anyone have any other ideas how fuel could get into the oil? :roll: Thanks folks.

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Still thinking about this one.
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by paneled »

one thing to think about, with the injectors out of the engine on the bench
they are not subjected to the heat of the engine with it running, for 22.00
I would replace them, save the one with the good spray pattern and trash the
rest. I don`t know if the sei used a pressure regulator, most cars with a return
line to the tank use a pressure regulator and they have a vacuum line to sense how
much vacuum there is in the intake manifold, this is used to increase fuel pressure
when you open the throttle, they have a diaphragm that can crack and cause fuel to
leak into the intake, fill a cyl, and leak past the rings of the piston into the oil. something
to investigate. jmtcw
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »

Well, I received the injectors from Rock Auto today. Thay are for an 86 Honda Prelude 2.0L. No good, these are about 1/4" shorter then my OEM ones. They will not reach the fuel rail. I double checked the numbers, numbers are same as ordered but not same as ones on the bike. Hmm, now what? OK, did some more looking around. Has anyone accutally installed an injector for a 86 Prelude 2.0, into a SEi/LTD ??

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

The Autoline 16313 were the ones I had installed in my '85 LTD, worked well. The only issue was the pintle extension was a bit shorter than the OEM injectors.
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Make sure you have the cushion ring installed on the top of the injector and the injector ring seal in the bottom. I missed this on one when I first installed and scratched my head as to why it wasn't right.
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »

That's what I have here is the Autoline 16-313. I just compaired the new to old on the bench, did not attempt to install them. I may be missing something here. Hmmm??

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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Checked the size when I first received them. They are a bit shorter but it is on the end that goes into the injector holder (intake manifold). This did not affect the performance as the fuel goes into the air stream them into the cylinder.
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Any decision which way you are going?

Cheers
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rusty Bike »

Well, on your advise I installed the Autoline injectors with no problem! I was about to send them back because they look different. My Bad! Decided to change the oil before starting bike. I decided to check the oil again before changeing. To my amazement, the oil level now looks good. Dead on the full mark on the stick. I find that getting a good read on this dipstick is tricky. One must put bike on center stand. Pull the stick, wipe clean then put it in the hole WITHOUT touching the stick to anything in the engine. Do not thread the stick in, just put it in till it hits the threads, then withdraw stick Without hitting anything inside the engine again. NOW, you get a true read! SOB was foolin me! But I am very happy to realize that I was not ruining my engine. I will be following your lead on the other thread, as to the preformance issues we both were/are experenceing on these FI bikes. Thank you so much for shareing the info and you determination in the preformance quest of the early Honda FI system. I will post my finding also. :D :D

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Rednaxs60
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Re: 86 SEi, gas in oil.

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Hopefully, with enough information regarding these fuel injected models being documented, people will start to look at them in a different light and not be put off by the fuel injection system. Once running well, these are good bikes to ride.

Cheers


"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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