Alternator conversion kit.


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Chompper26
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Motorcycle: 1985 Gl1200 Limited Edition

Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:17 pm



Both of the red wires are red with a white stripe. Im trying to figure out which wire would be the red to the ignition? I guess ill just hafta test and retest till i find it.



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Wolf Rider
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Motorcycle: 1986 Honda Goldwing 1200 Aspencade

Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Wolf Rider » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:31 pm

Have you checked the ignition switch itself?
Going by the wiring schematic, bond together the leads that switch together by the ignition switch one at a time, bypassing the ignition.

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:53 pm

All the switches work as they should. Power is getting to everything as it should except the plugs have no spark. Ive tested the start button and the engine kill switch. Both work normally. The coils are getting power but not the plugs. But the bike started fine when i replaced the rec/reg. It wasnt charging meaning bad stator so i went ahead and had the alternator installed. So i removed the rec/reg and capped off the green yellow and black (acc) wires. I connected the red white wires to a power bus block and connected the alternator to a fuse block then to the bus. Now the bike will not start. It gets power, cranks but i get no spark. So im trying to figure out if maybe i need to connect another wire or something to get spark. Once i have spark my conversion is done and my bike is back on the road. Which is why im so frustrated. Should i just run another wire to the battery or starter solenoid? And if i do that do i need to also run another wire to the ignition? Which im not exactly sure what wire that would be. If i need to run new wires im fine with that just need to know exactly where to run them to. As with the bus installed its easy enough to run new wires and i already have both the wire and the connectors etc. I just want this thing back on the road already and im not above simple rewiring if necessary to do it. If i need to run new wire i just need to know to where what guage. And does it need to be fused.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:34 am

There are two wires on the starter solenoid. A red and red/white striped wire. The two wires from the RR are red/white striped.

If you follow the red and red/white wires from the starter solenoid, you will come to a junction where the red and red/white wires are connected together. This is just below the gas fill in the wire harness. The red wire goes from this junction to the ignition switch, the red/white wire goes to the RR.

The two red/white wires from the RR are joined into a single red/white wire just after these disappear into the wire harness, the same with the green ground wires.

If the wires on the starter solenoid are both red/white wires, follow these back towards the front of the bike and you should still come to this junction.

The junction will look like this and is wrapped in blue tape:


The red/white and green wire connections are also wrapped in blue tape. Green ground wires:


Red/white wires:


To rewire, this diagram is exactly how mine is wired:


14 gauge for the sense wire is a bit overkill.

I would first try as I mentioned to start the bike with the red/white wires disconnected for the bus bar. Also disconnect the alternator wire as well.

If you have power to the coils, you should have power to the plugs. This is based on two requirements. First the coils are good, and second - the igniters are good as well. It is hard to diagnose a bad coil especially if it works sometimes. The igniters are what grounds the coils allowing the 12 VDC power to flow through to the plugs. Here is a schematic of a wasted spark arrangement:


Make sure the wires connected to the coils are clean and well seated. If you have had the coils out and put them back in it is easy to push the wires onto the coil male ends, but actually miss putting them on properly, not a lot of room to work in there.

You can also look at the connectors for the spark igniters to make sure these are clean and in good condition as well.

Is your alternator a 3 wire? If so where do you have the sense wire and the excite wire connected to? The lamp is a nice to have. The sense wire should be connected to the bus bar through a relay. The excite wire should be a switched 12 VDC supply.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:24 am

Its a 1 wire alt. So no sensing wire. And the reason i think the coils are still good is it ran fine with the rr connected. (Just wouldnt charge cause bad stator) it started and ran just fine the only thing that has changed is chopping out the rr and wiring in the alt and bus bar. Which is why im thinking maybe i have something disconnected that needs to be connected. Just cant figure out what it might be. Unless of course the coils fried while it has been sitting or in the shop. Just dont know really. If the coils are good then its a wiring issue. If not a wiring issue its gotta be the coils then right?

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:24 pm

Still wont start even with nothing connected.

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:37 pm

If its that damn position sensor this bike is going to the scrape yard and im done with motorcycles completely. Because 1 thats a part i cant replace and 2 im done spending hundreds of dollars to be still left with nothing to show for it.

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:08 pm

Im 3k into this bike and nothing but a lawn ornament to show for it. Dont get me wrong i like the bike but i cant keep theowing away money on it i just cant afford it. If this thing doesnt start and soon im out im done i just dont have any patience or money left. If its that sensor then the bike is dead.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:17 pm

Understand your frustration. Wish I only had that into my first '85 LTD - amortizing it over the long run. Learned from the first and cost(s) for the second one is coming in a lot closer to yours.

Had this happen to me last year when I was looking for a miss in the lower RPMs. Swapped out every sensor, replaced the TPS, and checked everything to the Nth degree. After I spent countless hours searching over a two month period, I reminded myself the only work/maintenance I had done before this all started was installing new aftermarket non-OEM coils and wires. I put the original ones back in and all went away. Still think I need to replace with new coils and wires, only reasonable after 34 years.

The position sensor you are mentioning wouldn't be the fuel pump shut off relay. This is the one just above the coils and on the same bracket as the PB sensors. If the fuel pump comes on when the key is turned on this sensor is working properly. The fuel pump will start automatically after this when the engine starts. Can you confirm this.

Here is a schematic of the circuit:


So the issue here is no spark. Don't think it's the fuel pump shut off relay, and definitely had nothing to do with your alt install.

Is there spark on any plug when the engine is cranked to start? I ask this because the service manual supplement recommends swapping from one side to the net to confirm circuit operation.

Another thing to try is to remove the coupler from the ECU, make sure it is clean, and plug back in.

Do you have the GL1200 Limited Service Manual Supplement? If not I can send in PDF using wetransfer for large files. PM me about this. Good information in there on troubleshooting.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:34 pm

No the sensor im talking about is the timing one. The one under the front covers you have to pull the whole front of the bike apart to get to. It tells the coils when to fire the plugs. Everything else checks out. And i have pulled and cleaned every connector i could find on this bike. So at this point it comes down to the coils or that sensor. Like i said if its that sensor there isnt a replacement to get. And even if there was it means another 2 months of taking apart the bike and waiting on it to show up at the cost of hundreds of dollars i dont have. I dont have a garage either so i would have to wait for the part before even starting or risk losing or ruining parts equally impossible to find. Is there any other part of the ignition system on this bike it could be? That would be preventing the plugs from sparking? The plugs are good the wires are good. My brother is going to check the coils tomarra. Everything gets power except the plugs. Its gotta be something thats either connected to them not passing on the power like the coils or that sensor isnt telling the coils to spark the plugs unless there is another part that could be interrupting the signal or something. Maybe the coils are bad and thats why the green wires get the pulse like the bike has to shunt the power somewhere and cant get it through the coil so it grounds it out.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:51 pm

The Ns sensor, know it well. Mine went out of spec. The PO had already installed a 1500 sensor in the upper position. I replaced it with the PG sensor from an '85 Aspy. The only difference is that there are two sensors that install in the upper and lower position. I removed the pins from the PG sensor and put the pins in the original Ns connector. Works well. The second sensor is there just in case the first one goes in the next 30 odd years. These PG sensors are still available.

Check the Ns sensor for spec. Should be 297 to 363 ohms resistance at the coupler. Even the new PG sensor(s) do not spec out as per the manual. Lots of leeway in the readings.

Check out the spark igniters as well. These units can fail as well.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:11 pm

Spark ignitors, PG sensors, great and im guessing these things are either really expensive or near impossible to change out myself without a full mc garage right?

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Rednaxs60
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:33 pm

First have to do the tests, igniters and Ns sensor may be good. Something is amiss, can't tell what though.

Spark igniters are right behind the top air box cover. Plug and play.

The Ns sensor is not difficult either. You can change the Ns sensor with the rad still installed. I would drain the coolant, 12 or 14 mm wrench, disconnect the lower rad engine housing from the engine - 8 mm socket and pull the lower rad out to give you room to work. The timing belt covers are 4 bolts (use metric allen (hex) wrenches) and come out easy. One bolt secures the Ns sensor in place - think its an 8 mm socket.

To get to the rad cap, remove the top shelter (need to do for the spark igniters as well). Disconnect the bracket holding the coloured connectors on the right side. Look straight down and you will see the rad cap. I have large hands but with some patience you can remove and replace it, easy once you get the knack.

The easiest is as you mention rad removal in its entirety.

Have done a lot of this type work in driveways, apartment parking lots as well. Have not always had a garage. Blankets are your friend in this case.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:45 pm

Gonna hafta remove the rad alt and both fairings cause of the alt conversion. In order to get to the bolts for the front covers also have to remove the pulley i installed for the conversion.

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Ohara
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Ohara » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:06 am

Hang in there Chompper, I feel your pain. Ernest is one of the best. Once you test the resistance of the sensors you will know if you have to do the work... Usually if the sensor under the timing covers go bad the bike will still start and run until the motor warms up and dies.. You will find the problem.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:39 am

Not one of the best, just too much time being old and retired. :lol:

Any joy on the bike starting? Been thinking about it, and it seems that when you put in the other regulator you tweaked something and it started. On the LTD there is a a group of four connectors that the original RR connectors were part of located just forward of the RR location. Make sure these are in good condition and seated well. If you look just forward of these connectors, you will see a connector that looks like the coloured ones on the right side of the frame. This is the TPS (throttle position sensor) connector. Make sure its well seated also. The four coloured connectors should be looked at as well. Once this is done there is not a lot left. Trace the wire for the Ns sensor and you will find the connector very close to the TPS connector.

You mention a pulse on the green ground wires from the RR. There is a third wire on the ground and power circuit wiring as indicated in my pictures above. This is where the capacitor ties into the circuit. It is probably giving you the power pulse. You can disconnect this as well.

Cheers.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:28 pm

Still no joy on starting my brother has started taking the whole front end apart now. Hes pulling everything on the front off. Rad alt the whole fairing everything to try and find and test the coils the doomsday sensor as i call it and the spark plug wires etc.

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:44 pm

Just found out the shop i took it to did some welding on the frame to attach the mounts for the rad. Any chance he torched something if he had the batt connected when he did it? Cause i heard you shouldnt do that since you have to clip the ground line to the frame when you do that. Or does that just blow up the batt?

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:37 pm

My brother put an ohm meter to the coils and came back with OL or overload i guess on the coils both of them. Any ideas? I know its rare for both to fry at the same time but could that be the problem? Cause its showing no resistance between the + & - sides of either coil or so im told. Either that or no contact between them period.

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:26 pm

Ohara the bike wont start at all the plugs get no spark. Im betond the end of my patience and far far far beyond the end of my finacial ability to fix this fracking piece of honda trash! Ive just had with this damn thing. Why cant anything just work.

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Ohara
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Ohara » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:21 pm

That is a great question. Sometimes things just do not work the way we need them to. I do not blame you for being frustrated. Electrical problems are not easy to fix.

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:36 am

Well discovered the coils are absolutely toast. And the shop i had do up the conversion for me put the fan in where it would hit all the wires and hoses. So i ordered a new low profile flat bladed fan and 2 new coils. Hopefully next week when they all get put in itll start. Till then i am doing what most will prolly think is sacrilege and im painting over all that ugly goldish colored paint. When its done itll be red logo badges on a flat black bike front to back. I may even stencil in a few other things. Hopefully by the time im done with that my "shadow wing" will be back on the road and ready for a real road trip.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 am

Coils are toast - not a regular occurrence but can happen, only 33 years old. Will be looking into new ones probably next year, projects never end.

Sorry about the mess the shop did. Any artificers out there any more?

Did see a red '85 LTD a while back on the internet, other colour schemes as well. Some have used spray cans to get a good look. Post pictures of it when done. The gold colour is a bit dated but I like it. Would even like to have it repainted to original, better shine and all will make it perk up.

Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

Chompper26
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Chompper26 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:32 pm

Spray paint is all i can afford. Ill post pics if the finished product isnt too embarrassing lol.

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Rednaxs60
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Re: Alternator conversion kit.

Post by Rednaxs60 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:40 pm

The spray can paint schemes I've seen are pretty good. Prep is the most important then many light coats of colour then some clear coats. It'll look great. Only you will know where the "oops" are.


"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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