How was my 85 wing even running??


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saamiam
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How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:54 pm



Guru's... Please diagnose what you see..


So recently purchased my '85 Wing.. its my first wing. Ive been riding since '75 at 5 yrs old my dad put me on a rupp 5hp mini. I would say I am intermediate shade tree level with deep understanding of all aspects.. I can rebuild my carbs, strip my bike to bare frame, modify the frame, design build rat/bobbers, cafe racers, rewire any bike and do valve adjustments on a single ohv thumper..
Crack a head open to clean pistons, change rings is a no go, timing chain (or belts) is a no go..
Riding back from oakland to Sacramento yesterday she started vibrating wicked bad from 2800 to 4000 rpm, in every gear and when cruising 75 to 80 in OD was like running on 3 cylinders.
Did my research and thinking ok.. check plugs, slow air cutoff, vacume leaks..
first thing when I pop the side cover to dc the battery the stator wires jump out at me and make me say "Holy ****, How the hell was I even running.
I have taken a bunch of photos and put them into a pdf on my google drive here for your review.. i didnt want to load up this post with 10mb of pics.. you will see pics of my stator wires, the intake of my carbs and my newly painted exhaust manifolds.. notice how much hotter left side is burning.. any and all advice is super appreciated...
see pics here.. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_xoMW ... koTSw_5jPN



















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DenverWinger
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by DenverWinger » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:07 am

Per photos those stator wires were attached using crimp connectors, that's almost as bad as the OEM connectors. When they start to corrode, resistance goes up, along with it heat and you see the result. With the one stator wire disconnected you will still have alternator output, but it will only be about half the current normally available to run the bike. Looks like the stator wires were getting hot where they go into the rear engine cover. You were likely in a low-voltage situation causing or contributing to the engine miss.

The best and ONLY way (IMO) to connect those wires is to SOLDER them, prevents corroded connections. But before you resolder those Stator wires now is a very good time to test the stator.

With all three stator wires disconnected (let's call them "A", "B", and "C") get your ohmmeter and measure resistance between A to B, A to C, and B to C. All three readings should be about the same, around 1-2 ohms. Any readings wildly different to one of the stator leads indicate an "open" leg. Then measure between one of the stator leads to ground (engine block). Should be NO reading (open circuit). Any reading here would indicate insulation breakdown in the stator (windings shorted to stator core).

Then we'll do a voltage measurement. Set your meter to AC volts and start the engine. Measure the voltage between A-B, A-C, B-C with engine at 4000 RPM, should be around 50-70 volts AC, and roughly the same between all three legs. An unusually low reading on one of the legs to the other two indicates shorted windings in the stator on that leg.

If the stator passes these tests, solder the wires back together, it doesn't matter which stator wire goes to which wire from the rectifier/regulator. Then start the engine again, you should measure 13.5-15 volts DC at the battery at 4000 RPM on a charged battery. If your battery is low on charge you should still see a minimum of 13 volts.

So if the stator passes all these tests we can consider it good and move on to troubleshooting the miss (if it doesn't go away with the stator wiring fixed). You could probably seal up where the stator wires go into the rear engine cover with JB Weld. But any failure in the stator tests means the engine has to come out to replace it....

You mention timing belts - These are interference engines, and if you don't know how old the belts are you are running the risk of destroying the engine if one of them breaks. We HIGHLY recommend replacing them every 50000 miles or 10 years whichever is first. They (Gates belts, which are OEM equipment, by the way) are available from Amazon for less than $40 for a set. And they are actually pretty easy to change, there's very good DIY articles right here on this site!
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

~Mark

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dingdong
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by dingdong » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:52 am

Just can't help myself. Now I know what they mean by the term...road sofa. Interesting pattern.
Tom

"Molon Labe"

John F. Kennedy would be impeached by todays liberal Democratic socialist party.

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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:50 pm

dingdong wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:52 am
Just can't help myself. Now I know what they mean by the term...road sofa. Interesting pattern.
LMAO!!! That is too funny!! The story behind the Road Sofa.. my sister-in-law is the head seamstress at Thunder Valley Casino and she came by one day with a pallet of last years Curtains from the casino. These things are like 1/16" thick 15k thread count!! Had to damn near use a tablesaw with diamond blade just to cut.. haha. When I removed the trunk to intstall the chill spot for my black lab Yosi I covered it with the curtain material because the color was matching to the bikes paint... well, one thing led to another, and 4 cans of 3m spray glue later...
You my friend have inspired me to create a new bumper sticker...
"**** a Road King... I've got a Road Kouch"
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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:00 am

@Mark, "You mention timing belts - These are interference engines, and if you don't know how old the belts are you are running the risk of destroying the engine if one of them breaks. We HIGHLY recommend replacing them every 50000 miles or 10 years whichever is first. They (Gates belts, which are OEM equipment, by the way) are available from Amazon for less than $40 for a set. And they are actually pretty easy to change, there's very good DIY articles right here on this site!"

Regading the stator wires, they were scorched buddy, insulation as hard as concrete and the copper wire inside toasted to that dull orange for a good 1 1/2" on either side. i cut back to clean wire and spliced in good new wire soldered it up and insulated the crap out if it. Tested it and its not perfect but its good. Im not sure when The timing belts were last changed but I found a new set in the cargo trunk so Im assuming they were going to be changed. The previous owner failed to mention anything..
It is definately running better but still experiencing that sluggish vibration under load but the rpm range range is much shorter now. I found on carb vacume chamber loose and one installed wrong and the carbs were nasty.. when you look inside the intake chamber you can see number 1 and 4 have some nastyness.. Next mission will definately be timing belts.. Thanks for your expert advice brother!!

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DenverWinger
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by DenverWinger » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:53 am

Glad the stator still passing muster and you got that working... :D

As to the timing belts in the trunk - You'd probably be more aware of when the PO put them in there, is there a chance they may have been in the trunk 10 yrs and are also suspect? Use judgement there...

Since the bike is running it might be worth a "Seafoam" treatment before you decide to dismantle carburetors for cleaning, others have reported success on correcting a bad-running Goldwing by adding Seafoam to the fuel (double-dose) and just driving it. This stuff doesn't work immediately, takes a good 4 tanks or more of treated fuel to start making a difference, but it might just save you some carburetor surgery... Check your sparkplugs, they may give some clues as to what's going on (rich/lean etc), maybe a new set wouldn't hurt. In the mean time you can concentrate on the other maintenance items..

Ride safe my friend, glad to have you on the site!
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

~Mark

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AZgl1800
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by AZgl1800 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:12 am

DenverWinger wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:53 am
Glad the stator still passing muster and you got that working... :D

As to the timing belts in the trunk - You'd probably be more aware of when the PO put them in there, is there a chance they may have been in the trunk 10 yrs and are also suspect? Use judgement there...

Since the bike is running it might be worth a "Seafoam" treatment before you decide to dismantle carburetors for cleaning, others have reported success on correcting a bad-running Goldwing by adding Seafoam to the fuel (double-dose) and just driving it. This stuff doesn't work immediately, takes a good 4 tanks or more of treated fuel to start making a difference, but it might just save you some carburetor surgery... Check your sparkplugs, they may give some clues as to what's going on (rich/lean etc), maybe a new set wouldn't hurt. In the mean time you can concentrate on the other maintenance items..

Ride safe my friend, glad to have you on the site!
I once "fixed" a '94SE by running Seafoam in every tank of fuel for months, it eventually cleaned up the low speed and idle circuits to where the bike idled smoothly at 1000 rpm.
When it was purchased, it had a wild surging, from 600 to 3000 rpm or more.

( I also found a vacuum leak on the left bank between the 2nd and 3rd cylinders )

SeaFoam is NOT an overnight panacea for a cleaning job. but, in a lot of cases, it can do the job. Depends on how much patience you have, and how often you ride the bike.
In my case, it was everyday, as it was my only transportation.

Timing belts in the trunk? I suspect a lot of them in the store shelves are at least 10 years old. if unused, I would not worry about it.
~John

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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:40 am

@john, Thanks for the sea foam advice brother... Patience is something I have alot more of than budget these days... Like you it is my daily driver and it currently has 67,000 miles on her.. not bad for an 85 in my book.
The belts in the trunk are brand new (in respect to usage) date putchased unknown. pulled the plugs, 3 of them have nice burns the right rear cylinder was fouled and also am noticing a poof of smoke from right side exhaust. Yes gents, i removed the stock exhaust and ran straight 2 1/2" pipe with reducer to 1 1/2 at the ends. Also took the silencers out of the stock chrome tips and inserted them in the 2 1/2" before the reducer.. has a great tone and provides near same back pressure as the stock setup..

The bike on the bottom is one of my favorite.. I lived in the Philippines 9 years and I chopped it down and most interesting mod was when I removed the dual shocks and mounted a heavy duty coil spring between the swing arm and frame. Then took the extra rung for the spring, cut it in half and welded it in swing arm/frame for added support..rode like a semi rigid.. and you never guessed it was a Benelli did ya.. lol.. Its a 200cc ohv thumper.. To ride on the freeway in the philippines requires 400cc minimum sooooo i went to ace hardware and bought some chrome mailbox numbers 450.. Local magazine featured it.. my 15 minutes of fame.. lol http://www.caferacer.ph/visual-stories/ ... light-200/

I appreciate everybodys advice..

Jeff
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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:33 am

OK so I have more than a carburetor vacume leak issues so. I pulled the plugs and this is what I found. Immediatly noticable was cylinder number 3. Plug still looked brand new.. It has spark when I tested it but it's very clear that the cylinder hasn't been running.. Cylinder one and two which are on opposite sides banks are greeninsh.. like a cracked head.. anywho, withour further adoo.
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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:55 am

Here are better photos and description of observations.
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DenverWinger
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by DenverWinger » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:25 am

None of those plugs look particularly bad, I think maybe we are over-analyzing things a little....

Leaky head gasket would be evidenced by steam in the exhaust, the best way to test the gasket is with a leak-down tester. I made one from a sparkplug with the porcelain smashed out, welded a short piece of pipe to it and then an air-hose connection on the other end.

Homemade leakdown tester
Homemade leakdown tester

To use it, get the cylinder you want to test to Top-dead-center on the compression stroke, and with the radiator cap removed apply compressed air to that cylinder, watching the radiator. If there's a leak it will start pushing coolant out of the radiator, otherwise nothing happens.

But if you aren't seeing steam in the exhaust, as previously stated I'd just get her on the road and try a seafoam treatment to see if that helps the carbs any....

Your second photo shows the little ports where you connect vacuum gauges for balancing the carburetors, the little screw is removed and a little nipple threaded in, the vacuum lines from the gauges get attached there. Should be a similar screw on each intake tube. The discoloration suggests there was a slight leakage around the screw, nothing to worry about either.
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

~Mark

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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:43 pm

How about the number 3 cylinder spark plug brwnd new clean like it hasnt been firing?

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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by DenverWinger » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:56 pm

Not getting gas from the carb? Otherwise it'd be gas fouled if not firing. If the bike doesn't sound like there's a miss, I'd say it probably is firing, just hasn't run long enough for the "Clean" look to go away.

You can check by starting up cold, and feeling exhaust pipes to see if any are warming up slower or faster than the others (has to be done right away after starting so you don't burn fingers).
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

~Mark

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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by WingAdmin » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:44 pm


Vacuum plug
Vacuum plug

This is the vacuum port where you attach the vacuum barbs to attach your gauges when synchronizing the carbs.

Image

Image

There should not be any discoloration. Only thing I could think of to cause discoloration would be a leak AND backfiring? If you had a leak there, that cylinder would be running very lean, however.

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DenverWinger
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by DenverWinger » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:24 am

Thinking the discoloration is just fuel-stained over long term. We've even seen the outside of carburetors look like that discoloration.
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

~Mark

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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by vladimirch » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:18 pm

DenverWinger wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:07 am
The best and ONLY way (IMO) to connect those wires is to SOLDER them, prevents corroded connections. But before you resolder those Stator wires now is a very good time to test the stator.
I had the same problem and I have changed connector. New 3 wire connector with gold surface is up to 60 A. All wires are soldered to connecter pins and I can still disconnect stator wires (for maintenance).

You can see mentioned connector here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1X-5-Pairs-MT6 ... :rk:9:pf:0

Regards
Vladimirch



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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 am

And sooooooo... the story continues..you will really like this discovery..I finally got up the courage to pullthe carbs for a bath and an inspection of the slow air cutoff valve..long story short, I pulled the valve and it looked like brand new.. hmmmm suspicious..I picked up the housing for the slow air cutoff valve and tried to blow through it.. nothing.. damn, its clogged.. grabbed a sewing needle to bore it clean and Boom!!! The damn thing had never been drilled from the factory!! Solid galved alum!! Lol..
being a man of no means, let alone little means.. grabbed my dremmel and smallest diamond tip drill and vwala!!!right as rain!! Wonder how long that thing was on there like that before i got it... its an 85...
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by oldmopars » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:24 am

saamiam wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 am
And sooooooo... the story continues..you will really like this discovery..I finally got up the courage to pullthe carbs for a bath and an inspection of the slow air cutoff valve..long story short, I pulled the valve and it looked like brand new.. hmmmm suspicious..I picked up the housing for the slow air cutoff valve and tried to blow through it.. nothing.. damn, its clogged.. grabbed a sewing needle to bore it clean and Boom!!! The damn thing had never been drilled from the factory!! Solid galved alum!! Lol..
being a man of no means, let alone little means.. grabbed my dremmel and smallest diamond tip drill and vwala!!!right as rain!! Wonder how long that thing was on there like that before i got it... its an 85...
WOW, excellent find. I assume it runs better now?

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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:21 pm

Yes and no.. my window of the boggy vobrations are now confined to the mid range between 3700 and 4200 rpm in every gear during acceleration. That will probably go away with a carb sync and the timing belt replacement.. Life's a bicy when even a carb syncing is out of the affordable range.. yes, I know its only about $30 to $40 but when your goldwing is also your home, $40 is like $40,000.

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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:35 am

saamiam wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:43 pm
How about the number 3 cylinder spark plug brwnd new clean like it hasnt been firing?
All I can say is.... WOW!!! My respect and admiration for the Wing has 10x'd!! So, you remember me asking about the #3 cylinder feelinglike it wasnt firing right?..
well, I got around to taking off the bowl and....
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DenverWinger
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by DenverWinger » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:35 am

Looks like you've been driving around on a three-cylinder wing and dragging a 1 cylinder air compressor along for the ride! :lol:
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

~Mark

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saamiam
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Re: How was my 85 wing even running??

Post by saamiam » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:54 am

Hahahaha.. Lol.. Well you are correct.. Holy **** though, she is fast now!! So thats what a goldwing is supposed to feel like when running on all four.. The name makes so much more sense now... 'cause she flys now!! :lol:



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