Clutch Question....


Information and questions on GL1200 Goldwings (1984-1987)
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OldCrow
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:39 pm
Location: Knox, Maine
Motorcycle: 1987 GL1200 Aspencade, 1981 BMW R100RT

Clutch Question....

Post by OldCrow »



Hello Everybody
My 1987 GL1200 Aspencade has issues. On cold start up, first of the day, the shift from neutral to first is accompanied by much clunking and gashing of gears. Once she's been run all shifts are smooth.

I've tried to break loose the clutch plates by moving the bike with it off and in neutral but they are STUCK, no luck.

I've been running Mobil 1 10W40 4T Motorcycle synthetic for the past 11k miles, about 35k on the bike. Also both master/slave cylinders have been overhauled and fresh fluids and a good bleed.

I assume the clutch friction plates are OE from 1987. I've only had a couple wet clutch bikes, most of my bikes have had dry clutch. I'm wondering if the OE plates may have saturated with old oil and gotten sticky when cold.

With snow plows active and 10degF it's a good time to get some MC rebuild therapy :D So would a clutch friction plate replacement help or solve this problem? If yes can someone recommend a good quality plates and source.

Thanks!



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CrystalPistol
Posts: 1396
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:07 pm
Location: Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
Motorcycle: 1997 GL1500SE/'98 Lehman Trike

Re: Clutch Question....

Post by CrystalPistol »

OldCrow wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:04 pm
Hello Everybody
My 1987 GL1200 Aspencade has issues. On cold start up, first of the day, the shift from neutral to first is accompanied by much clunking and gashing of gears. Once she's been run all shifts are smooth.
Just start it, let run a few seconds, at idle, pull in clutch, and put it in first. Babying the shift lever is doing it no favor as you try to ease it into gear. Be ready to hit the "emergency stop switch" just in case she takes off. Usually the mild shock pops them loose easily enough.

Same thing if you "start" it in 1st gear with the clutch pulled, be ready just in case "stiction" carries the day (I done this one day in the basement, thankfully I was pointed towards the open wide door, which was the last time I tried this method).
OldCrow wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:04 pm
I've tried to break loose the clutch plates by moving the bike with it off and in neutral but they are STUCK, no luck.
You can hook the bike to a truck and pull it across three states with it in neutral and engine off and not break clutch disc loose … because it's in neutral. The motor nor clutch nor any transmission gears are moving. To do what you want would require you to put the bike in a gear, engine off, and pull the clutch, and push the bike. With our old kick start bikes, we could put the bike in a gear, pull in the clutch, and kick the kick start to break the "stiction", but our legs did not have "lock outs" preventing kick starts in gear.

Stiction is all it is, not "old oil". It ain't just Gold Wings neither, if the bike is chain drive you'll see the chain dance.
Make Courtesy your "Code of the Road" …

… & Have a Safe Trip!
:)

OldCrow
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:39 pm
Location: Knox, Maine
Motorcycle: 1987 GL1200 Aspencade, 1981 BMW R100RT

Re: Clutch Question....

Post by OldCrow »

CrystalPistol wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:56 pm
Just start it, let run a few seconds, at idle, pull in clutch, and put it in first. Babying the shift lever is doing it no favor as you try to ease it into gear. Be ready to hit the "emergency stop switch" just in case she takes off. Usually the mild shock pops them loose easily enough.

Same thing if you "start" it in 1st gear with the clutch pulled, be ready just in case "stiction" carries the day (I done this one day in the basement, thankfully I was pointed towards the open wide door, which was the last time I tried this method).

Stiction is all it is, not "old oil". It ain't just Gold Wings neither, if the bike is chain drive you'll see the chain dance.

Hello, yes I've tried running it to full warm up and it still grinds. A hard shift in to 1st sounds HORRIBLE. I got into the habit of starting the bike in 1st gear with the clutch and brake pulled. The starter would wind slower but the engine would catch. The bike would try to surge forward, hence the brakes. The stiction would be broken and then the 1st-2nd etc would go well. I did this many times on our USA 4 corners ride last Sept only to have the AGM batter suddenly die one morning :( Related :shock: And I can't imagine this type of starting is doing the starter any good.

I've owned more than dozen bikes including a GL1800 and currently a BMW R100RT. And NONE have had this kind of clunk/grind. Folks have said old BMWs transmissions are like a farm tractor, well I've had 4 and all were better then the GL1200 on first cold shift :(

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CrystalPistol
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Location: Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
Motorcycle: 1997 GL1500SE/'98 Lehman Trike

Re: Clutch Question....

Post by CrystalPistol »

Does the clutch release before the lever is pulled all the way to the grip like it should? If there is any leakage of fluid between the handlebar master and engine slave cylinder, you pulling the lever will not result in a clean release. The same thing happens if a seal is bad in either end letting fluid leak back past the piston. If it's fine once warmed up, likely OK.

You haven't had to add clutch fluid have you? I ask because if you have had to add any, you have a leak in a system that does not tolerate leaks very well. Low fluid or a fluid leak is like a stretchy cable, you don't get full travel at the other end.

The gears in a motorcycle transmission do not have "synchronizers" like a synchromesh or car transmission. The gears have big blocks separated by big spaces, call them "dogs", the gaps of one gear are bigger than the blocks of the other one so a quick shift engages them. If you try to shift slow or ease it into the next gear, the dogs often skip over each other and you hear the gnashing and likely feel it in the foot. Just a little stiction will feed it. The gears float on the shafts, they only lock to the shaft when the slider's dogs engage the gear's dogs.

On my 1200, I learned to do just like I did on my Norton & Triumphs, that is pull the clutch lever in and put it quickly into 1st.
Make Courtesy your "Code of the Road" …

… & Have a Safe Trip!
:)

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WingAdmin
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Re: Clutch Question....

Post by WingAdmin »

CrystalPistol wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:56 pm
You can hook the bike to a truck and pull it across three states with it in neutral and engine off and not break clutch disc loose … because it's in neutral. The motor nor clutch nor any transmission gears are moving.
Actually, that's not correct. The output portion of the transmission is connected to the driveshaft, which is connected to the rear wheel. If the rear wheel is moving, then the output portion of the transmission is turning - and if the engine isn't running, that means the transmission is turning with no lubrication being pumped. It's a good way to ruin your transmission. This is why you should never tow a Goldwing with the rear wheel on the ground.

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CrystalPistol
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Location: Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
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Re: Clutch Question....

Post by CrystalPistol »

Well, you ever look for an answer and later when not thinking of the question, the answer occurs to you? Just happened.

My '85 would engage the starter with the clutch pulled and kill switch in off position even, in gear too (assuming the clutch lever bushing is good). I just remembered that, not sure about the '87s though as my '97 GL1500 will not engage starter with kill switch in off … even though it will start in gear with the clutch pulled tight?
If his '87 will do like my '85 would …
… he could set the kill switch to off …
… turn the key to on …
… put the transmission in gear …
… pull the clutch in tight …
… and then bump the start button …
the motor should not start but the bump might jar his clutch disc loose.


I was thinking of this post, been tough to sleep lately … and as I think on it, I got to thinking my '85 was maybe a little harsher than my '97 is in this regard. It's been 8 months ago I sold it, so it's memory is all I got of it.
WingAdmin wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:10 pm
CrystalPistol wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:56 pm
You can hook the bike to a truck and pull it across three states with it in neutral and engine off and not break clutch disc loose … because it's in neutral. The motor nor clutch nor any transmission gears are moving.
Actually, that's not correct. The output portion of the transmission is connected to the driveshaft, which is connected to the rear wheel. If the rear wheel is moving, then the output portion of the transmission is turning - and if the engine isn't running, that means the transmission is turning with no lubrication being pumped. It's a good way to ruin your transmission. This is why you should never tow a Goldwing with the rear wheel on the ground.
Sure it is.

The gear train is not turning, just shafts and sliders which in neutral aren't locked to the gears (which themselves stay engaged with each other in constant mesh pairs). The clutch doesn't turn either in that example, so there would be nothing exerting force to break the clutch disc loose. The clutch is between the engine crank shaft and the transmission input shaft, if the transmission is in neutral, the clutch nor engine rotates with the drive shaft.

I was not addressing possible wear from shafts spinning dry (lube being questionable getting to shafts inside the gear train), I was addressing the poster's attempt to break stuck clutch disc free with the starter with engine off and transmission in neutral. I was not suggesting that one actually tow a Gold Wing or other bike across three states.
Make Courtesy your "Code of the Road" …

… & Have a Safe Trip!
:)

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Rednaxs60
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Re: Clutch Question....

Post by Rednaxs60 »

My 1200 does the same thing. First time in the morning, or whenever, going into first is a clunk like an HD. After this no issues. Have learned that this seems to be a "signature" issue with these bikes.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

OldCrow
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:39 pm
Location: Knox, Maine
Motorcycle: 1987 GL1200 Aspencade, 1981 BMW R100RT

Re: Clutch Question....

Post by OldCrow »

Rednaxs60 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:36 am
My 1200 does the same thing. First time in the morning, or whenever, going into first is a clunk like an HD. After this no issues. Have learned that this seems to be a "signature" issue with these bikes.
Yeah, I've heard that before. But I'd need to try another properly sorted GL1200 to know if mine is "normal". Like I said it's WAY worse than any other bike I've ridden, BMWs,Hondas,Kawasaki,Yamahas,Urals

But heck it's 43degF today, I'm itching to go riding. But sadly all that snow doesn't just disappear with a few extra BTUs :(



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