1985 GW Limited Edition CFI Upgrade - Part 2

[Rednaxs60]

I have been progressing my 1985 GW CFI ECU upgrade/replacement project in between the requirements of family and friends. I have been doing road trials since the spring to calibrate the VE (fuel) and spark tables.

The prequel to this thread is: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=71394 and on the Classic GW forum: https://classicgoldwings.com/threads/19 ... ost-231303

This thread will be more structured as I have copious amounts of information gathered and in document(s) to draw from. Suffice it to say, these are great bikes, but as we go forward in years, keeping these vintage motorcycles on the road will become more challenging. The question is, do you accept the fact that the motorcycle is not going to be long for this world and it gets parted out and/or goes to the scrap, or do you take the bull by the horns and modernize/upgrade the CFI system.

Short start to this thread. More to follow.

[Rednaxs60]

Thought some more on this topic. I'm new at EFI ECU engine tuning. There are quite a few YouTube video series on the Speeduino Project ECU, what it is, set-up, inputting the various parameters/settings in the Tuner Studio software for a new project, initial calibration of the VE (fuel), spark (ignition timing), and AFR tables, first engine start, tuning to fruition, the list goes on. There are on-line articles that discuss an EFI install or upgrade that are very useful. Found a new set of videos today that require a considerable amount of viewing time and I'm certain there will be benefit in watching these. The amount of information and guidance in the various forums is requisite reading as well.

Having mentioned the above, why would I want to discuss this topic on the various forums. The world of EFI engine tuning is the school of hard knocks. There is no accredited college/university program available for a person to take and become an accredited EFI engine tuner. There are on-line programs available that can provide the guidance and information necessary to get your project going and bring it to fruition. The facilitators of these webinars, on-line programs also went to the school of hard knocks. These people stuck with the program, saw benefit in learning the trade, and are now the "experts" in this field. You must remember that most of these people have the required equipment at their disposal, or access to, to do an engine tune with a new ECU. If you are not quite so fortunate, a project of this magnitude will be more challenging.

The school of hard knocks, an unforgiving school that must be attended by all who chose to do an EFI conversion or upgrade project. This is where I am. Attending this school has one thinking what is the best practice considering that what works for one person may not work for another, but both are striving to get to the end result, a successful EFI install/modification. There can be conflicting thoughts on just what to when.

My threads on the 1985 GW CFI ECU upgrade/replacement project is my story of the school of hard knocks. I have made incorrect observations and decisions based on what I have read and tried to decipher, I have made some good decisions as well.

Your background, skill set and tool set will determine what the difficulty factor will be for your project, let's not forget the budget. A well defined project plan will assist as well.

Everything I post will be for information only. Should you try some of the information, I will not be responsible for any damage to your engine or EFI system. I am going to attempt to keep the information to concepts and theory, and how the various components and tuning software parameters interact.

Enough for today. More to follow of course. Cheers

[Rednaxs60]

Electronic Fuel Injection - conversion, upgrade, partial install - ignition or fuel. Daunting project to be sure. Is this a "black" art, or a learned skill set that anyone can acquire.

We question our abilities when it comes to such a project. I know I did with the CFI ECU upgrade/replacement project. Thought I knew a lot considering I had been working on and delving into the Honda CFI system of my '85 GW 1200 Limited Edition for some 4 years before I considered the project. Thought I had learned a lot, but I had only scratched the surface.

EFI is a "black" art from the standpoint that there is very little wrote about it when it comes to an older Gold Wing. Most installs that have come to fruition, and there are not that many reported, are completed through experimentation and hopefully, some help from the forum collectives.

Going the "full monty", fuel and ignition is a significant endeavour. Wiring considerations, component selection, manufacturing parts for the install, space availability, and the likes can make one's mind spin in so many directions.

When considering all this, what is the best bang for our dollar? Putting the older GW EFI models aside for a minute, whole different kettle of fish, let's think about the carbureted 1200 and even the older GWs.

This is a discussion topic that I have found on-line. The "full monty" is by far the most expensive, time consuming EFI install. Don't believe many will disagree. This then becomes a question of whether to do an EFI fuel only install, or an EFI ignition only install.

From what I have read, the EFI ignition only install is the winner. Why is this?

Carbureted engine systems have stood the test of time. Maintaining the OEM original carbureted design has provided us with an engine system that is relatively bulletproof and keeps on "ticking". This system allows us to tinker and do upgrades such as a carburetor upgrade or changing the original carburetor fuel jetting, a new "wonky" cam with different lift characteristics - always fun, and we have a fair to good understanding of what we are doing and what we expect.

The OEM has installed a system that provides engine operation and performance with an air-fuel ratio (AFR) at idle of approximately 14.7ish - probably a bit less, and anywhere between say 13.0 and 14.7 AFR up to wide open throttle (WOT)/full power. Works pretty well all round, but there is nothing you can do to improve the engine operation. The carbureted systems do not care what the engine coolant and air temperature are, whether you ride your bike at altitude or not, or what the engine manifold absolute pressure (MAP) is. An EFI system, fuel, ignition or both, does.

Let's consider changing the ignition to electronic EFI style. The 1200 carbureted GWs have an ignition control module (ICU) that is old, and may be subject to failures as we go forward, and because of this I would submit that a look at a new ICU based on a new aftermarket ECU should be considered.

There have been aftermarket ignition control modules that were designed for the older non-EFI GWs, but the availability appears to be lessening. These units use electronics to do what the distributor points and condenser provided. The ability to further tune the ignition profile for the engine is not available to you.

The design of the EFI ignition system is not for this post or thread, but what components are required is. The components that are readily available and extra to what is already installed in the engine are:

EFI ECU
Crankshaft trigger wheel
Coil Driver(s) - spark units
Inet air temperature (IAT) sensor
Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor

OEM installed components:

Engine coolant temperature (CLT) sensor

Recommended components:

Wide band oxygen sensor (WBO2)

Hopefully I have mentioned the basic requirements. This post is getting a bit long in the tooth. Time to cut and run. More to follow on the EFI ignition only issue.

Cheers

[Rednaxs60]

Keeping these older GWs on the road is the reason for this thread. Lots of “barn” finds being reported and discussed on the various forums that may be in need of some innovative solutions to get these “barn” finds, and keep them on the road.

Back to the topic at hand, EFI ignition only install.

Location of the various components required will be discussed where possible.

Wiring requirements will be dictated by the location of the components being used. You will need a 12 VDC and ground for the EFI ECU being used. The grounding and 5 VDC signal for the various components will come from the EFI ECU.

The “brains” of this upgrade is the ECU. I will be focused on the Speeduino Project ECU because that is what I am familiar with and using for my ECU upgrade/replacement project.

There are a lot of aftermarket ECUs available to choose from depending on your project requirements, budget and timeline. I will be focused on the Speeduino Project family of ECUs, actual and clone(s). I am a fan of the Speeduino Project ECUs, open source, can modify the source code, develop your own interface board, add extra features and such. The only hold back is your imagination.

Installation space is always a consideration, and in the past has been a determining factor. The new crop of Speeduino and Speeduino compatible ECUs have made this concern almost a distant memory.

There are Speeduino compatible ECUs that are almost the size of deck of cards. The C2C – Compact 2 Channel, from DIY-EFI is an example of this. The Spark Gap X4 from openlogicefi is another small unit approximately 3” by 4” by 1 ½” in height. The Oscelot ECU from WMTronics has the Arduino Mega 2560 microprocessor integrated into the interface board reducing the ECU size. These mentioned ECUs are full features ECUs and can operate a GW in wasted spark and paired fuel injector configurations. The ECUs that are of the 4-channel variety allow you to future proof your install. There are other Speeduino compatible interface boards/ECUs available. Have a browse of the Speeduino forum, and on-line to look for others. Your location can be a determining factor in what Speeduino ECU you choose.

Cheers

[Rednaxs60]

Once you decide on the ECU, you will need to get the Speeduino compatible engine tuning software. This is Tuner Studio, and MegaLogViewer, and get the license for each - unlocks additional needed tuning and diagnostics.

If you do not want to commit to an EFI project, you can do a bench test project to determine if an EFI project is what you want.

There are no plug and play EFI ECU units for the older Gold Wings and because of this, you will need to start from the beginning.

The EFI components needed for a fuel only EFI install were mentioned in a previous post.

Crankshaft trigger wheel - as the name implies, this is installed on the crankshaft. The ECU uses the signal generated by the crankshaft trigger wheel. The accepted placement is sandwiched between the crankshaft timing belt pulleys and is generally a 36-1 missing tooth trigger wheel. You will have to "key" the trigger wheel to the shaft.

I initially wanted to use the Speeduino ECU dual wheel operating mode (trigger pattern). This is where there is a crankshaft and camshaft signal to the ECU. Had an issue getting "full sync" with the OEM installation. I did some testing and found that the issue with the OEM system was that the VR sensor used for the camshaft signal did not provide a reliable signal auto the ECU at low engine RPMs. This was reported by "socrace" on the NGW forum. - switching to a Hall Effect sensor solved his problem. The VR crankshaft sensor was suitable for the installation with the crankshaft RPM being higher than the camshaft RPM at idle. This prompted me to revert to a missing tooth trigger pattern with a 36-1 crankshaft trigger wheel installed. This solved the issue of "sync" loss and allowed me to progress the new ECU installation, but I still intended to explore the dual wheel trigger pattern with the OEM 8 tooth crankshaft trigger wheel and a single camshaft sensor and OEM camshaft trigger wheel.

You will need to install the crankshaft trigger wheel sensor, recommend using a Hall Effect sensor instead of a variable reluctance (VR) sensor. The ECU needs a digital signal from the crankshaft sensor to process the signal. The Hall Effect sensor is three wire sensor that outputs a digital square wave signal. This sensor requires a 5VDC power supply that comes from a terminal on the ECU interface board, and a ground from the ECU interface board.

The VR sensor is a two-wire sensor that outputs sine wave that needs to be converted to a digital square wave signal. This is done through the use of a VR conditioner that plugs into the interface board.

The ECU interface board will have "jumpers" that allow you to select either a VR sensor or Hall Effect sensor. If you install and select the Hall Effect sensor, you will only connect one wire from the sensor to the "VR2+" terminal. You will not need to connect any wire to the "VR2-" terminal.

If you select the "VR" jumper position, you will have to connect the positive wire from the crankshaft sensor to the "VR1+" terminal and the second wire to the "VR1-" terminal.

Some ECU interface boards will recommend a "pull" up resistor when using a Hall Effect sensor; however. my research indicates that this "pull" up resistor is already installed on most Speeduino and Speeduino compatible interface boards.

The install requires new coil drivers. The 1200 carbureted GWs do not have these even though these GWS use an ICU.

There are a multitude of coil drivers available for use. I am using the Bosch 211 four channel coil driver. Compact unit compared to the coil (spark unit) drivers used in the '85/'86 CFI systems. You will need to use two of the coil driver circuits. This coil driver will future proof your install in that should you progress and install the EFI fuel component and are adventurous enough to configure your install for sequential ignition, you will have enough coil circuits for four separate coils.

Older, carbureted GWs have a vacuum port or ports available to connect a MAP sensor for the ECU to use. It is recommended to use all the vacuum ports available. If more than one, consider routing the vacuum lines into a vacuum block then connect one vacuum hose to the ECU for use.

Most aftermarket new ECUs available for use generally have a MAP sensor installed on the ECU interface board. A common on-board MAP sensor is the MPX4250. Should you prefer to use a remote MAP sensor, and there is an on-board MAP sensor, you may have to modify the on-board sensor to allow for the use of the remote MAP sensor, and switch the "jumper" that selects on-board Map or Baro. Most ECU tuning software will have a drop-down list of acceptable MAP sensors and the specification(s) for these sensors will already be in the engine tuning software. Recommend using the on-board MAP if installed. A barometric sensor is convenient depending on your riding area. Not the end of the world if one is not installed initially - can be added later as a follow-on project.

You may be able to utilize the OEM CLT sensor, but you will have to test this sensor to determine the operation specifics. If not, there are a lot of CLT sensors available to use. This is the same for the IAT sensor.

The IAT sensor location must be determined, the IAT sensor for the ‘85/’86 GW FI models is located in the air filter cover, a good place for a new installation.

Installation of a wide band oxygen (WBO2) sensor is recommended. This sensor can be a stand-alone sensor, not connected to the ECU, or integrated into the ECU. This sensor provides a visual indication of what the air-fuel ratio (AFR) is for any given RPM-MAP reading. Advancing the engine timing will help lean out the air-fuel mixture, retarding the engine timing will help richen the air-fuel mixture. Without this visual confirmation of the AFR, you will be tuning by the seat of your pants, and takes more time.

The choice of a WBO2 sensor is a matter of choice and budget. Innovate and 14point7 are good, reliable choices. If you do not intend to continue to an EFI fuel and ignition installation, a less expensive unit may be in order. Whatever your choice, make sure the controller is included with the O2 sensor, generally a matched set.

EFI conversion components can be from a multitude of sources. Used components that are widely used such as the Bosch 211 coil driver (don’t always need to use new) can be found at an auto wrecking yard. Most new components can be found on eBay.

[Rednaxs60]

Engine timing is next to be considered. Owners of older GWs do not have to spend a lot of time on this.

There are two timing issues, alignment of the crank and camshafts using the “T1” indication on the crankshaft, an idle timing using “F1” indication on the crankshaft. Idle timing is approximately 10 degrees BTDC. This is known only from information in the OEM service manual.

There have been owners who have used a timing degree wheel to further refine the GW engine timing. Worthwhile endeavour; however, not much latitude in changing the OEM engine timing. This is a static engine timing that requires a road trial to confirm the expected result.

I discussed the components required for an EFI ignition only install in my last post. Installation of these components and utilizing a new aftermarket ECU will provide all non-EFI GW owners the ability to better tune their older GWs.

I mention this because the GW engine timing is a significant compromise that allows the owner to expect a fairly good engine operation/performance and motorcycle ride quality. You must remember that the design and setup of the engine timing at the factory for normal street use is done with better diagnostic tools than are available to the general public. The OEM also errs on the side of caution in that the design is such that the engine will operate in a “rich” fuel condition so as to safeguard the engine and take into account the use/abuse that owners will inflict on the engine.

The OEM has designed and produced a very good motorcycle engine, but there are significant shortcomings when it comes to engine operation and performance. To enhance the engine operation, owners start to experiment with carburetor jetting, maybe tweak the engine timing a bit, but in the short and long term, changing the basic engine operation and performance to a new level is not going to happen.

Installing an EFI ignition only system gives the owner a host of possibilities to enhance the operation and performance of the GW engine.

The ignition timing (spark) map is a 16 by 16 matrix that you now have control over. You can “dial” in a specific operating RPM/MAP scenario. Advance or retard the engine timing for best air-fuel ratios.

Owners often ask about carburetor jetting on the various forums. With an installed WBO2 sensor, and the new EFI ignition only system, you will be able to better determine what carburetor jetting changes can be made, larger jets for more fuel, or smaller for less. The tuning software will allow you to log engine parameters and from this, adjust your engine tune as required reducing the “seat of the pants” tuning scenario.

There are no aftermarket performance enhancing parts available for these older GW engines. I have read quite a few forum threads on changing the engine heads from 1000 heads to 1200 heads, 1100 to 1200 heads, or even changing out 1200 heads for the 1100/1000 heads.

This is all well and good; however, the impact of this decision without the ability to compensate for the change can be interesting. Changing the camshaft(s) alters valve opening and closing. Valves may be larger or smaller changing the engine manifold pressure. Carburetor calibration can also change. The engine exhaust system is calibrated for the original engine configuration, may change with these new changes.

This is where the new install of the EFI ignition only install can be extremely beneficial and outshines the Honda OEM distributor style system, or the 1200 ICU ignition system. Most car enthusiasts that modify – “trick out” their car engines with new “wonky” cams and such have to have their engine systems tuned for the new parts. Changing the OEM cam on a car engine for a high-performance cam may result in the engine not starting. Happens all the time, the change, result, consequence scenario. These GW engines are no different.

With the installation of the EFI ignition only system and WBO2 sensor, you will be able to recalibrate the engine operating parameters to better utilize the engine changes that have been done, and achieve the desired results. Carburetor jetting and the ignition timing table may need to be tweaked to incorporate the new changes to achieve the best air-fuel mixture. Timing can be changed a point or two to “richen” or “lean” out the air-fuel mixture, being careful to stay away from the engine “knock” zone.

The take away from this information and previous posts is that changing the distributor points/condenser arrangement to an electronic points/condenser arrangement is a good upgrade, but the basic engine design parameters have not changed and cannot be changed. The same with the 1200 ICU units. A significant upgrade from the distributor style ignition, but you are still confined to the OEM design criteria should something go awry. There is no replacement for the 1200 GW ICU.

All good so far.

[Rednaxs60]

Thinking a disclaimer is needed about now. This post is not a how to, but a what is possible for the owners of older GWs. I have read quite a few forum threads where the owner(s) or new owner(s) feel that there is no hope of resurrecting these older GWs. This results in the selling of the motorcycle, parting it out, or scrapping it.

Buying and owning an older GW is not inexpensive, there are limited or no mechanics available to work/maintain your GW. You are your best mechanic.

It's like the movie "The Martian". At the end he is telling the new class of recruits that when things go south and you want to come home, you prioritize the issue, and tackle these one at a time and if enough issues are corrected, you will come home. These older GWs are exactly the same.

My '85 1200 FI model is quite often a PITA - some issues are self-inflicted; however, I like the bike, enjoy riding it, and using it for a retirement project.

Cheers

[Rednaxs60]

A new thread has started on the GW Docs forum regarding GW 1200 pulse generator. The thread owner suspects that the PG sensors on his ’86 Aspencade are failing. It is mentioned that these PG sensors are no longer available so an alternative must be found. GL1500 PG sensor(s) can be used, but the 1200 PG sensor mounts will need modification to have the GL1500 PG sensors. Know this because there was one installed on my ’85 FI model when I purchased it. An example of parts availability and what owners are thinking: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72990&p=429310#p429310

Good reason to consider modernizing your motorcycle engines ignition system.

Back to the topic at hand.

Engine timing, Engine timing, Engine timing! Can’t be any more explicit.

This is something that older GW owners do not have to pay a lot of attention to, but will be required if you embark on an EFI ignition only installation, or an EFI fuel/ignition (full monty) installation.

The first issue is a timing light. It does not have to be expensive; I use a $35.00 special off Amazon. I do have an older Snap-On timing light with a degree advance dial. If you have an older timing with an advance dial and it is not rated for wasted spark, set the advance dial to “0” degrees and leave it there, do not use this dial. If you use the timing advance dial, it will complicate timing the engine.

Another mod I have done to my ’85 FI model to use the timing light is that I have put an engine timing indicator in the timing belt area, and marked the crankshaft trigger wheel with #1 TDC (T1 crank indication) and idle timing (F1 crank indication). Using the engine timing port that is generally covered in oil making it hard to view the crankshaft timing marks, and the need for a special tool to allow viewing of the crankshaft marks is a not fun.

Setup of the ignition trigger angle for initial engine timing prior to engine first start is documented in the Speeduino Wiki: https://wiki.speeduino.com/en/home The details of how to do this is well documented in the Speeduino forum. The initial trigger angle is a staring point. There will/may be a requirement to adjust the ignition trigger angle. Knowing where #1 TDC is when setting this trigger angle will assist you.

It is expected that a 36-1 crankshaft trigger wheel will be used at the onset of an EFI ignition only install. It is a trigger wheel of choice and fits well between the crankshaft timing belt pulleys. Should you want to install a camshaft sensor, you can keep the missing tooth trigger wheel installed.

Installation of a camshaft sensor with an EFI ignition only install is very beneficial. Using a crankshaft sensor without a camshaft sensor will work, but engine phasing will be a guesstimate. A camshaft sensor will give the ECU additional information and engine phasing will be as accurate as possible.

These new aftermarket ECUs relay on input signals to do the job. The more information provided is beneficial to the engine tune.

This EFI ignition only install will require you to calibrate/populate the ignition timing (spark) table. There are examples of a basic spark table in the forums. A “wedge” table is widely used at the onset of this type of project. This Speeduino forum thread provides a good description of an ignition timing “wedge” table and how to produce one for initial engine timing: https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 832#p26832

The objective with this “wedge” table is to get the engine started and then calibrate the table for actual engine operation.

Cheers

[Rednaxs60]

EFI ignition only components installed and engine initial timing has been done. Time for first start.

All things being equal, the engine will probably start first time, much to your amazement, it will probably stall as well. Jack up the engine idle screw and get the engine operating with a 1500 to 2000 engine RPM – then reduce the RPM to idle speed of approximately 1000 RPM. If the engine stats to falter, increase engine RPM until the engine operation smooths out and adjust engine timing. Repeat this procedure until you have a stable idle RPM.

You have installed a MAP sensor. Use this indicator in conjunction with the WBO2 sensor to achieve a smooth base idle.

Since fuel is already set, can’t change carburetor fuelling at this stage, you will have to rely on the MAP and WBO2 sensors, and adjust the engine timing to improve engine operation. I submit that you will be able to get the idle timing to about 10 to 12 degrees BTDC with an idle of approximately 1000 RPM. I have mentioned in other posts that you can use ignition timing to lean out the air-fuel mixture – advancing ignition timing, or richen the air-fuel mixture – retarding ignition timing. Do this in small increments so as not to invoke engine knock – engine knock from too much ignition timing advance.

I have mentioned that an EFI ignition only installation is the best bang for your dollar if you are not inclined to do a complete EFI fuel/ignition installation. This is the sentiment of many “experts” out in the real world; however, in conjunction with this is the need to control the fuel going into the engine.

You may notice that your engine is operating in a fuel rich or fuel lean condition no matter what changes you make to your ignition timing (spark) table, at idle and when riding. This may require you to consider changing the carburetor jetting. Smaller carburetor jet(s) for a leaner air-fuel mixture, larger carburetor jet(s) for a richer air-fuel mixture.

Upgrading the OEM system to a modern EFI type application, partial or full, can be insightful. How the engine was operating from the factory and what you are now able to see, may come as a surprise.

Installing an EFI ignition only, or fuel only, or a complete EFI system will require a mindset change. Honda spent countless hours and money developing the Gold Wing and the Gold Wing engine design. Most of us do not have access to the equipment used to produce a road ready Gold Wing. Recommend using the available OEM information as a guide, not a definitive requirement.

You are at a point in the EFI ignition only install that requires you to do road trials to dial in the new ignition timing (spark) table. Determine a tuning plan and execute your tuning plan.

Good luck.

[Rednaxs60]

Will be reviewing my previous posts to make sure I haven't missed anything, then chart the next batch of posts.

[Rednaxs60]

I’ve reviewed my posts to date. It would appear that I’m staying on track, chronologically and staying on topic.

The EFI ignition only installation is the best bang for your dollar to start, and the easiest to install.

The next step is to add fuel to the mix.

A good number of EFI components have been discussed in the EFI ignition only installation. This next part of the EFI journey will focus on the remaining components to convert your engine operating system to a complete EFI installation.

I will be discussing what is required, what may be available, and where you may do your shopping will continue to be the focus of this thread.

The components installed during the EFI ignition only installation is approximately 85 percent or so of the EFI components required.

The new components that are needed are:

Fuel injectors.
High pressure fuel system comprised of:
High pressure fuel pump
Fuel system filter(s)
Fuel system supply rails
Fuel injector holders
Idle air combustion (IAC) motor and piping/hoses
Fuel pump shutoff sensor
Throttle position sensor (TPS)

There will be additional wiring requirements.

This continuation of an EFI installation will require a definition plan. You need to determine what the end goal is and how you are going to get there. I mention this because this will determine what extra components you may want to include such as a camshaft sensor that allows for sequential fuel and ignition. You may have included a camshaft sensor in the EFI ignition only install, another piece of the EFI pie taken care of.

What type of fuel injection are you going to use? Individual throttle bodies, single point fuel injection, port (point) fuel injection, multi-port (point) fuel injection (MPFI). An upgrade/modification to MPFI is sequential port fuel injection (SPFI) or timed fuel injection.

There is direct fuel injection but that is outside the scope of the EFI installation being discussed here.

Each type of fuel injection has pros and cons. An EFI fuel installation can be based on a myriad of criteria. The budget, space availability, part availability, skill set, your determination to bring the project to fruition are some that come to mind. I submit that the most significant issue that determines if the EFI fuel installation comes to fruition is the amount of time needed to complete the EFI fuel installation. It can be disheartening to do so much work and not be seen to be progressing the project so you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

The takeaway here is to not underestimate the amount of time required, and the hurdles you will have to overcome.

I have mentioned that you can do a project bench test, an accepted approach to start such a project; however, I do get the impression that when this process is used to start an EFI project, the commitment factor is not there and the project may not proceed to the next level of the project – just an observation. A project bench test is a good way ahead, especially if you only want to dip your toes in the water, and not do an install.

Another consideration is that a carb to EFI conversion will take the bike out of commission for however long it takes. Reverting back to carbs may also not be possible, happens.

My OEM CFI ECU upgrade/replacement project started in 2019 with information gathering, determining the project definition, determining what aftermarket ECU would be used, purchasing components, and most important – reading/viewing a lot of information regarding EFI installs and what I needed to learn. I started the EFI conversion in 2022, and now 2 years later I’m still working on the project bringing it to fruition.

To take the sting out of this project and the length of time involved, I have a Can Am Spyder to use. Can’t let a project like this determine my riding enjoyment. Takeaway is that a second bike is a good consideration.

Enough theorizing.

[Rednaxs60]

Fuel Injectors – there are two types available, high impedance (high-z) and low impedance (low-z). Both work well. There are a number of on-line articles detailing the specifics of each, saturated, peak and hold and such that you can research.

The issue with fuel injectors is the amount of current that the EFI fuel injectors can be subjected to.

Low-z fuel injectors are generally in the 3.0 Ohm range, high-z fuel injectors in the 9-10 Ohm and above range. Using Ohms law, low-z fuel injectors will have an amp range of approximately 4 amps, high-z fuel injectors approximately 1-2 amps. This is a significant difference for a digital circuit.

Most aftermarket ECU fuel injector circuits can use a 1-2 amp current without damaging the fuel injector circuit, nut not a 4-amp current.

To use low-z fuel injectors with aftermarket ECUs, Honda does this as well with its ‘85/’86 1200 FI models, a resistor pack is used in series with the low-z fuel injectors to limit circuit current. Honda uses a 3 Ohm resistor in series for two low-z fuel injectors. A 6-ohm resistor is needed if you are going to use a low-z fuel injector by itself. There is no requirement for a resistor pack if using high-z fuel injectors.

Note - First parts update: resistor pack for use with low-z fuel injectors.

The flow rate of the chosen fuel injectors, high or low impedance, for a 1000/1100/1200 GW can be in the range of 300 cc/min. This flow rate is determined by bench testing the fuel injectors at approximately 43 PSI (3 bar). Used fuel injectors should be sent to a service centre for servicing.

The benefit of using an aftermarket ECU that you have the ability to adjust/recalibrate the engine tune is that you can use just about any reasonably sized fuel injector to achieve a good engine tune. Consideration regarding the size of the fuel injectors is such that you do not want to use a fuel injector that is too small such that you run out of fuel at higher powers/WOT. You do not want fuel injector(s) that are too large such that you cannot control the amount of fuel adequately at low powers/idle.

You will want a set of fuel injectors that are relatively close in flow rates. You will want to use a service centre that can produce fuel injector data that will be required for the settings in the tuning software.

Caveat – the service centre cleaning, flow testing and data collection may vary between service centres. I had a set of ‘85/’86 1200 FI fuel injectors serviced at two different places. One service centre indicated a flow rate of 285 cc/min, the other 315 cc/min. The service centre that rated the fuel injector(s) at 315 cc/min also provided fuel injector data. This data helped in populating the engine tuning software program. The difference in the fuel injector flow data for the OEM fuel injectors is not an issue. The benefit of an aftermarket ECU that allows you to calibrate/adjust the engine tune is that these small differences can be accommodated in the engine tune. In this instance, I know that the OEM fuel injectors are capable of operating at WOT without running out of fuel, and provide good performance at the lower power range(s) and idle.

Would recommend using a service centre’s fuel injection data as a starting point, but realizing that you may have to tweak the fuel injector characteristics as you develop the engine tune.

If you are buying new fuel injectors, make sure the supplier provides the fuel injector data required, if not, look elsewhere. If your fuel injector(s) of choice do not have any fuel injector data, there are accepted values for a generic fuel injector that you can use, then experiment with the fuel injector settings to “dial” in the fuel injector(s).

Having a set of “balanced” fuel injectors is discussed on the various forums and on-line articles. This is a consideration and for a race and performance application, probably a very good requirement; however, for a street application probably not a high priority issue considering the expense and how these would be installed.

The ECU of choice can assist in this “balancing” off fuel injectors. The Speeduino ECU that I am using has the capability to utilize individual cylinder fuel trim (ICFT). This feature is part of the tuning software.

This is the ability to tweak each fuel injector (maximum of four fuel injectors) for a specific engine load and RPM range(s) to “balance” the fuel injectors. This will probably be in the lower power range(s) because as the engine power increases there is less time for the fuel injectors to cycle and fuelling between cylinders will be less of an issue.

ICFT is an advanced tuning tool and if wanted, can be used after you have “dialed” in the VE and spark tables, and a variety of other engine tuning features.

[Rambozo]

RC Fuel Injection is a great place to have injectors done. They can build you injectors from scratch or service injectors you have.

https://www.rcfuelinjection.com/

[Rednaxs60]

Good suggestion. The issue is that with an EFI install, not having the injectors serviced complicates the engine tuning, sort of like the mindset - "dress for success". Having the fuel injectors serviced, unless new, is part of this mindset. Give yourself the best opportunity to bring your project to fruition.

[Rambozo]

If you have some low mileage injectors you can pick through them and check pattern and flow match the best set. Snap-On has a nice little injector tester, but you could do a home brew for cheap with an Arduino and some MOSFETs. You just need to have a nice clean squarewave to send them for a fixed time cycle, and a graduated cylinder if you want to know the numerical flow rate or any container if you are just trying to match a set. Make sure they start and stop cleanly with no dripping, and that the pattern is a nice even cone with no streams or gaps.

[Rednaxs60]

Fuel system design will be a challenge, routing of fuel hoses, filters – before and after fuel pump, which high pressure fuel pump to use, fuel rails, fuel injector connections.

There’s no lack of things to consider.

High pressure fuel pump – just about any fuel pump that can provide up to 70 PSI fuel pressure will suffice. Recommend the fuel pump have an internal non-return valve to maintain fuel system pressure when engine is not operating.

Placement of fuel filters will be more challenging, but a necessary requirement. There are many products available for fuel hoses, complete with fittings. Fuel hoses with an inside dimension (ID) of ¼” should be sufficient. Some research will be needed for this.

Fuel system rails need to be fitted and the fuel injectors need to be connected if ITBs are not used.

Fuel injector holders and placement of these fuel injector(s) connectors are another challenging issue.

The fuel system will take a good amount of thought.

Fuel pump shut off sensor when the bike is laid on its side is, in my mind, a necessary component. This sensor shuts off power to the fuel pump and with a new EFI conversion to shut off power to the EFI system.

Throttle position sensor (TPS) is required for operation of the EFI system. An EFI system requires a throttle position sensor to indicate to the ECU when the throttle plates are closed or being opened/closed. A TPS is also used for the Alpha-N fuelling profile.

Where this is located will again, be a challenge.

The fuel system requirements is a significant installation.

The idle air control (IAC) valve is an EFI requirement. The ‘85/’86 GW CFI system has a passive idle air system. The Speeduino ECU can use the original CFI passive idle air control system. In the initial CFI design, it was realized that an idle air control (IAC) system is required at idle and deceleration, otherwise the engine is being starved of combustion air. Most IAC installs use an electric “stepper” motor controlled by the ECU.

This post regarding taking the EFI ignition only install to a complete EFI install is quite short. The main reason for this is that the EFI fuel install has two components. Sourcing parts for the install, and doing the installation. Sourcing the EFI components is time consuming and necessary. How to install these components and where to install these in the limited space available is quite different. I submit that the installation of the various EFI components will consume the most time.

The silver lining regarding a partial or complete EFI installation is that it upgrades/modernizes your GW so that you can continue riding it into the future. An EFI upgrade/modernization may be less expensive than purchasing a newer or new motorcycle, especially if you intend to continue riding a GW.

[Rednaxs60]

I have posted that this thread is not a how to do an EFI conversion, but to discuss the requirement(s) for an EFI ignition only and a continuation to a complete EFI installation with regards to the components required and considerations when choosing the EFI components.

An EFI conversion is a significant project with significant time and cost investment. The components required for an EFI conversion are competing for a limited amount of available space. Honda’s CFI system installation made the best use of the available space. I would submit that the CFI system could be used as a template for a GW EFI installation.

Once an EFI ignition only installation has been installed, there are not a lot of components required for complete EFI installation. This is why the previous post was short regarding the continuation to a complete EFI install. As I mentioned at the start of this post, this thread is about EFI considerations, components, not a how to install an EFI system.

The OEM CFI ECU replacement/upgrade project I have embarked on would appear on the surface to be a straight forward conversion utilizing the OEM components with a few minor changes. This may have been the initial premise, but there are a lot of options/features available such as sequential fuel and ignition, that with a few additional changes, can be accommodated.

The Honda OEM CFI system design for the day was a significant game changer. The use of port fuel injection, a better fuel injection system than an ITB installation. The use of two camshaft sensors to emulate semi-sequential fuel injection, an ECU on-board system diagnostic system, and such. The engine tuning program, the use of “maps” for VE (fuel) and spark (ignition) tables. All state of the art and well ahead of the curve back in ‘85/’86.

The installation of an EFI ignition only and a continuation to a complete EFI installation is, in my mind, the way ahead for these older GWs. OEM installed parts for the engine ignition system and carburetors will get scarcer as time goes by. Installing an EFI system, partial or complete will keep these motorcycles on the road, and out of the scrap heap.

It has been mentioned that an owner has to do a cost benefit analysis to determine if an upgrade to the engine operating system(s) is worthwhile or not. Agree wholeheartedly; however, is the GW community ready to have these GWs go the way of the Dodo bird – this is the question that needs to be asked.

[Rednaxs60]

A stable and adequate electrical power generation is paramount for any EFI system. If you have been the recipient of a failing/faulty battery in an EFI car, truck, motorcycle or other vehicles, you will know that when this occurs, all sorts of wondrous things start to happen.

I’ve mentioned previously that a well maintained and current battery – no older than four years, is a key element to consider with an EFI system. A faulty or failing battery can tax the charging system and components such that power is robbed from the electrical system operation, or components fail.

A battery does three things; starts the engine, absorbs electrical system spikes, and supplements the electrical system when the charging system is not producing enough power. The charging system for these older GWs is an RPM dependent system. A good battery only requires a short charge to bring it back to a 100 percent state of charge, after which, it absorbs a small trickle charge and is along for the ride. All power produced after this is used by the electrical system for normal motorcycle operation.

An EFI system requires an electrical system that maintains a system voltage of approximately 14.2 VDC, the reference voltage of the RR, be it an external or internal RR.

This is required because the ECU engine programming uses the electrical system voltage for engine operation and adjusting the various components that react to a voltage change such as the fuel injectors.

It is recommended that the voltage being used by the ECU, fuel injectors, and ignition coils be from the same voltage source so that the electrical system voltage that is sensed by these three EFI is the same, and the components will react to the same voltage fluctuation.

In this regard, it is necessary to ensure your bike’s electrical charging system is operating well. There have been fewer electrical charging system issues with the older non-CFI GWs. Most times, new owners of a 1200 GW especially the CFI models always query the electrical charging system, why does it fail and what can be done to mitigate any failures.

To bring this into perspective, you generally read about failures/issues more often than not. I submit there are a lot of older GWs on the road that do not have electrical system charging issues, but if so, do not comment on their issues on the various forums.

Difficult to recommend a way forward with regards to this issue. How well the GW is maintained, has it been off the “grid” for a while – barn find, in a garage for quite a few years. Inactivity is not a vehicles friend.

The best advice that can be given is to do the OEM specification checks to ensure that the charging system components are within the OEM specification tolerances.

[Rednaxs60]

It was mentioned that the 1200 carbureted GW ignition control module (ICU) controls the fuel pump. I have done some research into this and the two are interconnected, but not from a control standpoint, unlike the OEM CFI system ECU that does control the fuel pump.

The ICU provides a ground for the fuel pump relay. If you were to disconnect the ICU from the fuel pump relay and connect the fuel pump relay to an electrical system ground, the fuel pump circuit would work the same. You would have to provide a power source to the ICU for it to operate, but the end result is that the ignition system and fuel pump would operate the same.

Let’s explore this.

The 1000 and 1100 GWS use a mechanical fuel pump. This was changed to an electric fuel pump for the 1200 carbureted GWs. The 1000/1100/1200 carbureted GWs will operate without an electric, or mechanically operated fuel pump providing there is enough fuel system “head” pressure, ie a full fuel tank.

There are two questions that should be considered:

Do you want to control the fuel pump such that it initially starts, primes the carbs for “x” number of seconds, then stops, but once the engine is started, the fuel pump is operating again?

Do you want to control the fuel pump such that it initially starts, primes the carbs for “x” number of seconds, but if the engine is started before the priming time is finished continues to operate, or simply just operate regardless if the engine is started.

The above questions would configure the fuel pump operation in an EFI ignition only installation to work the same as the fuel pump in an OEM CFI system, or as originally installed.

When the key is turned to the “ON” position, the OEM CFI system fuel pump operates for approximately 3-4 seconds, then stops. The fuel pump starts immediately when the engine starts. If the engine is started before the fuel pump priming time expires, the fuel pump continues to operate, does not stop. The priming time for the fuel pump can be adjusted in “seconds” in the engine tuning software.

This would be beneficial with these older carbureted GWs. I have not read about an owner having turned the ignition key of a 1200 GW carbureted engine to the “ON” position, and left it on for a good amount of time without staring the engine. I would think that prolonged operation of the electric fuel pump without starting the GL1200 engine would flood the carburetors, possibly forcing fuel into the various cylinders. This was an issue back in the late ‘60s early ‘70s when mechanical fuel pumps were being substituted for electric fuel pumps – just a thought.

Installing a Speeduino ECU will allow you to configure the ECU to control the fuel pump start/stop. You do not have to have the new ignition ECU perform this function, you could connect a ground wire to the fuel pump relay and operate the fuel pump.

Wiring the fuel pump so that the ignition ECU controls it will allow you to change from a low-pressure fuel pump to a high-pressure fuel pump should you decide to continue on with a complete EFI installation. One less issue to be concerned with.

The 1000/1100 GW mechanical fuel pumps use an engine camshaft to operate. Socrace on the NGW forum used this position to install the second engine rotation sensor (camshaft sensor) because he went to sequential ignition. He used a Hall Effect sensor instead of a VR sensor, works better at low engine RPMs.

Switching the 1000/1100 GW mechanical fuel pumps to an electric fuel pump allows you to use the mechanical fuel pump position to install a second engine rotation signal (camshaft speed) for engine phasing that improves the ECU performance – beneficial for an EFI ignition only installation or the “full monty”. This is more challenging with the 1200 carbureted GWs as there is no readily available camshaft placement to use.

[3KidsinAustin]

Dropping in to thank you for TBE effort you are putting in to gather this information together. I read your first Speeduino thread in detail before I even bought my Limited. This path will become more traveled as replacement parts reach "unobtanium" status.

[Rambozo]

The point of the fuel pump control is a safety issue. In the event of a crash there are a few things to prevent fuel from being pumped out onto a possible fire, hot exhaust, pinned rider, etc. The first is the bank angle sensor, and the second is the ignition controlled fuel pump. This is common on a ton of cars, too. Some do it by ignition pulses, some by oil pressure, and one I know used a signal from the alternator. All of these are designed to stop the fuel pump if the engine is not running. Some also have a crash sensor much like the BAS. Grounding the fuel pump relay would defeat this safety feature. Just something to be aware of.

[Rednaxs60]

The carbureted 1200 GW fuel pumps (FP) are low pressure, and the operation of this fuel pump is reliant on the ICU for the grounding circuit for the fuel pump relay. The ICU provides a pulsing ground for the FP relay such that it operates intermittently. The grounding pulses increase in frequency as the engine RPM increases and the FP runs faster. There is a vehicle bank sensor that serves the same purpose as the FP shut off sensor of the ‘85/’86 1200 FI models.

The ignition cruise relay is grounded through the vehicle bank sensor energizing the ignition cruise relay providing power to the ICU and coils. When the bike is on its side the vehicle bank sensor grounds the power to the ignition cruise relay stopping the power flow to the ICU and coils, shutting the engine off. No power to the ICU, no power to the fuel pump.

The vehicle bank sensor will need to be used to control the power to the fuel pump in an EFI ignition only installation. The fuel pump relay 12 VDC supply would be tied into the ignition cruise relay power supply. When the bike is on its side, the vehicle bank sensor will ground the power wire to the ignition cruise and FP relay stopping the engine.

The new EFI ECU will be powered from the ignition cruise relay as per the original ignition system design, as will the coils.

The 1100 ignition and fuel systems is different from the 1200 ignition system as will be the 1000 ignition and fuel systems. There is no vehicle bank sensor indicated in the OEM service manual, fuel is stopped when the engine is not operating – mechanical fuel pump. There does not appear to be a sensor that would stop power going to the coils or spark units (coil drivers).

The 1100 has two ignition system designs depending on the year. The ‘80/’81 ignition system has a pulse generator for each pair of cylinders, but a single spark unit for all cylinders. The ‘82/’83 ignition system has a pulse generator and spark unit for each pair of cylinders.

The benefit to a 1000/1100 EFI ignition only installation is that with the change you have a camshaft sensor placement available for that second engine rotation input that provides engine phasing, this is in addition to using the mechanical fuel pump position.

Lots more to discuss.

[Rednaxs60]

Let’s take a. side trip and discuss the issue Safety, personal and equipment. Not going to spend a lot of time on this because a person’s perception of this issue varies from person to person.

Rambozo is correct regarding fuel pump and engine ignition control. You do not want fuel spewing all over the place when the bike is not upright. Honda got it right with the 1200s with regards to the electric fuel pumps, high or low pressure, and the engine ignition system. The fuel system and engine ignition system is designed to stop the engine from operation when the bike is not upright. The carbureted 1200s fuel and engine ignition system design is different than the 1200 FI systems, but both achieve the same aim. The 1000/1100 GWs are different again.

Rambozo’s posts regarding the fuel pump safety issue had me reviewing the information available in the Electrical Troubleshooting and OEM Service manuals. To piece together a complete picture, it was necessary to review the information regarding the operation of the fuel and engine ignition systems in these manuals to get a clear, concise picture of the fuel and engine ignition systems as designed by Honda.

Safety issues are not always adhered to and there are many examples of this in the motorcycle world.

You get to cobble the EFI information you have found and put it together into a project plan, then review that plan against a known EFI installation if available, to make sure that you have not missed anything. Hopefully, safety issues have been considered and are at the top of your list or very close to it.

I have noticed with any specific industry that the DIY backyard mechanic researches an issue quite thoroughly and can find information that those in the trade may or may not know about. This is quite common because a trades person knows that what is being used works, is safe and provides the customer with a good product with the caveat that regardless of what is done, you can’t please everyone all the time.

This thread is to discuss partial or full EFI installation considerations regardless of the GW or any motorcycle in question, not to tell you how to do it. I’ve been researching and pursuing information regarding the EFI for over four years. The DIY backyard mechanic is at a disadvantage when it comes to a partial or full EFI installation.

Hopefully by the end of my dissertation, I will have discussed most of the EFI installation concerns and considerations that inquiring minds want to know. This includes having my thoughts on the subject challenged including how systems work and such.

I’m open to queries on specifics about the EFI system. If there are questions regarding the EFI system or components that would be a beneficial discussion item to this thread. please ask.

My ’85 1200 Limited Edition FI bike is my retirement project, and because of some of the CFI components being long in the tooth, I am doing a CFI ECU upgrade/replacement project that has blossomed into a modernization of the CFI system. Not an easy project, but not insurmountable. It is because of this project that I have decided to delve into the EFI world, and learn as much as possible about it. In retirement, have to have a reason to get up and go every morning.

Lots more to cover.

Cheers

[Rednaxs60]

Time to put the fuel issue to the side and look at the EFI ignition only installation, and we’ll start with the carbureted 1200 GW models. A lot of the following information has already been discussed, but this section of the thread is about an installation as if you are going to do one.

Parts/components required for this installation have been identified and discussed. These are:

Engine Control Unit (ECU): ECU of choice
75 mm crankshaft missing tooth trigger wheel: 36-1
Throttle position sensor (TPS)
Coil driver(s)
Crankshaft sensor: VR or Hall Effect
Coolant temperature (CLT) sensor
Inlet air temperature (IAT) sensor

Dash Digital Tach Indication - Updating the 1200 ignition control system may result in the coil signal being used for the dash digital tach indication not working. It is recommended that you instrument the dash digital tach signal to determine what it is so that should you not have a digital tach readout, you can duplicate the original tach signal. I would surmise that keeping the wasted spark system should not affect the dash digital tach indication, but it may. This is an issue with my ECU upgrade/replacement project in that going to sequential ignition has changed the fuel injector signal to the Travel Computer and the dash digital tach does not work. This is an ongoing issue for my project that needs to be resolved.

The first order of business is to determine which aftermarket ECU you are going to use. I have mentioned that my focus will be on the Speeduino Project family of ECUs and respective clones.

This is important in that each ECU, while it generally has the same features, may be configured in different ways. Micro/Mega Squirt family of ECUs are calibrated differently than the Speeduino Project ECUs. There is a lot of commonality in the information between these two ECUs, but this is for information only. The workings of these two ECUs, how the information is input into the tuning software, and how the information is displayed depending on the feature can be different.

The budget for the ECU is a consideration. You may be able to find a used Micro/Mega Squirt for a reasonable price.

The Speeduino Project ECUs and clones are relatively inexpensive depending on your location. The Speeduino interface boards are available with all the components installed and soldered on the interface board, or if you are up for a challenge, you can order the interface board with the components not installed and solder the components yourself. I have viewed many videos regarding this and the person doing the video makes it look easy.

You may want purchase a complete ECU that comes with the ECU enclosure, and external harness connectors and/or wiring already done for you.

Where are you going to install this new ECU? There is limited space available and because of this, choosing the new ECU that has a similar footprint to the OEM ICU is a good decision.

Consideration should be given to future proofing this installation; however, you must separate the romantic notion of going to a complete EFI install from the reality of such. The minimum ECU specifications I would recommend are:

• 2 injector output channels
• 2 coil output channels
• Dedicated tachometer output
• 4 medium/high current outputs (idle, boost, VVT, fuel pump, fan, etc)
• IAT, CLT, TPS, and O2 inputs (protected)
• On-board MAP sensor
• Stepper idle control through board mounted DRV8825 accessory PCB
• VR conditioning through board mounted VR conditioner accessory PCB

A connection for a barometric sensor may be in order especially if you live in an area of mountainous terrain, travel from a higher to lower elevation or the other way round. Some of the more feature rich ECUs have the MAP sensor and barometric sensor already installed on the ECU interface board.

You will need to purchase the tuning and analytic software packages, in this case Tuner Studio and MegaLogViewer. Recommend purchasing the software licences.

Having gotten this far with the purchase of the ECU and tuning software making the project “feel” real, start reading, reviewing, watching videos. I expect this has already been happening. I submit that compiling all this information into a coherent way ahead may not necessarily happen at the start. It has been mentioned that tuners are into concepts, or specific operating issues. This is true and you need to sift through their information to make sense of it; however, the more you review the information at hand and start to connect the dots, information that you read or whatever, that did not make an impact will rise to the forefront such that you will be able to understand it and relate it to what it is intended for. It’s the “oops” I missed that scenario, or as it was mentioned to me, an “epiphany” moment.

Cheers

[Rambozo]

Another open source efi project to look at is
https://rusefi.com/
They have a nice little micro unit just for 4 cylinder engines.

There are also some DIY projects for adding just electronic ignition to Honda twins, and fours based on PIC microcontrollers that can be built for $20. Perfect if you are on a budget and don't mind spending some time on it.

You can also just grab igniter boxes from later bikes and just fit a matching pickup and coil pack. Great if you don't have a lot of time and would rather pay for all the engineering to be done for you.