Final drive issue.

[T_birdman]

Well, just got home from a rough day! Took off to work an extra day this morning, got about 2 miles from work and while exiting the freeway, came to a stop, eased off the clutch, got up to speed and a terrible, rattling metal sound came from underneath! I pulled in the clutch while still rolling and the noise quieted, eased out the clutch again and the rattling came back so I quickly pulled the clutch back in and coasted into the nearest parking lot and parked. The engine still starts, even purrs like it always does, but no forward motion, dead in the water! I checked with the Carl.s Jr manager and they were ok to leave the bike till I got back, so I walked the remaining 2 miles to work (Good thing I'm always at least a 1/2 hour early!)

Did my day at work, grumbling under my words, and made my way back to the bike after work. To make things worse, I called AAA roadside and found out my wife dropped the bike or RV tow feature of our coverage 2 years ago, so the cost of the tow was going to come out of pocket! $300. for the flatbed tow home! How does that saying go, "Throwing away dollars to save pennies"! So now I have to figure out what broke, I'm about to pull the covers on the right side of the bike and any suggestions would be appreciated!

[T_birdman]

I forgot to mention the bike is a 1999 GL1500A with 65K miles. I figure to do some other maintenance while being forced to tear the ass end apart, new rear tire, brakes and lubrication, any suggestions along those lines?

[WingAdmin]

Well here's hoping it's something cheap/easy like worn splines on the driveshaft or failed U-joint, and not something internal to the transmission.

[T_birdman]

So I pulled the boot off the out put shaft enough to see the shaft rotating out of the transmission, with the bike on the center stand and in neutral, and turning the rear wheel the shaft turns as well and with the oil filler cap off I can see the gear in view turn too with no noise. Put the bike in 1st gear and turn the wheel, there is resistance and a grinding noise from the rear of the bike in the area of the pipe the shaft runs through, am I maybe correct the problem is the shaft spines or the cup it goes in?

[T_birdman]

So taking the ass end of the bike apart, removing the rear wheel and final drive out,

it looks to me that the shaft splines that mate with the final drive pinion joint are worn pretty bad.

The U-joint end splines are showing signs but not too bad to my eyes.

The pinion joint splines look really worn down, again to my eyes...

the final drive splines looked pretty squared as did the flange in the wheel.

I couldn't get a good view into the shaft-pipe but there was a lot of spent grease thrown around

I'd like to get a better look at the U-joint condition as long as I'm this deep into it all, but haven't seen how to get to it, is there a "DIY" here to dig into the U-joint? Also is there any special steps to remove the pinion joint from the final drive? I saw on Cyclemax where I might get a replacement Pinion joint new but did not see a driveshaft there, any ideas?

[spiralout]

I'd like to get a better look at the U-joint condition as long as I'm this deep into it all, but haven't seen how to get to it, is there a "DIY" here to dig into the U-joint?

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30309

[MikeB]

You can pretty much stop where you are and replace the drive line and the driven cup in the final drive, put it together and go for a ride.

The wheel flange splines and the front end of the drive line look great by the way.

I have experienced the same failure as you to the drive line/final drive connection.

The grease and debris you see in the drive line carrier is due to a failed seal on the drive line where it goes into the final drive. It is also possible that the universal joint boot is torn allowing foreign material to enter that area. That was a common issue with the '98, '99 and '00 models.
That drive line seal is supposed to keep out water and dirt and keep in the final drive fluid that is supposed to slosh into that area while riding. And, those splines need to be lubricated about every 16,000 miles with a good Moly grease to keep from letting this happen.

[Mr Magic Fingers]

Some of you may recognize my name from other forums so some of you may know that when I purchased (rescued) my 91 Aspencade 5 years back or so, I stripped it completely down to the frame. I cleaned and rebuilt EVERYTHING, right down to ripping out the piston of the air compressor.

The final drive was one thing I dove into completely because when I drained it, not very much oil came out... merely a few oz's. So I ripped into it completely breaking it in half, cleaning and servicing it. In doing so I discovered something I didn't know about the pinion joint... it acts as a pump to circulating the hypoid oil into that part (the cup) lubricating the pinion joint and drive shaft where the surfaces meet.

T Birdman... your pinion joint looks very dry. Mine had the same rust but was still "wet".

Once I removed the Pinion Joint, my adventure had begun. In the first picture of the Pinion Joint, you can see the "clean ring" where the nut held it in place on its shaft. What is hard to tell is that there is a solid 1/4 inch of "grease" at the bottom of the "cup" that you could see when the nut was removed. I noticed right away that along the shiny edge of the "clean area" that then nut had left behind, that there was a hole. Hmmm What's that?

Looking at the rear of the Pinion Joint, it really hit me of what was going on... or in fact what HAD gone on. There was actually 2 holes that went into the "cup" part of this. Looking at the design of these holes, their angles and the bit of machining on the other hole, this was a simple PUMP!

As the Pinion Joint spins it draws up Hypoid Oil that comes through the bearings where this Pinion Joint mounts and gets pumped into the inner cup of the this joint where the drive shaft mates to. It then "returns" back via the hole that was machined.

Then I had my epiphany moment... and OMG and WTF all rolled into one... I am not dealing with "GREASE" here... it's dried Hypoid Oil!!!!!!!

These holes were plugged... no oil getting to the spine of the drive shaft that mated with this Pinion Joint.

Make sure that everything is spotless in there as things get quite gummed up. I would at the very least flush out the final drive with solvent, blow it out to dry it and add new hypoid oil. Run it for 20 miles or so and then change the hypoid oil again as it may be thinned by residual solvents. Clean clean clean!!!!

Check out my pictures that show the final drive apart before and after cleaning.

Tim

/UserPictures/Mr ... tures_2540
/UserPictures/Mr ... blies_2542

[T_birdman]

I apologize to you all for not posting sooner but work is like a wall to get things done sometimes, and sleep takes precedence when you work 15-18 hour days!
The bike is back on the road, I ended up replacing the shaft and the pinion cup of the final drive and actual costs were about $100, 60 for the shaft and 40 for the pinion cup. However the cost of getting the job done went way past that! I did deep-clean just about everything under the seat and plastics, polished chrome that hasn't seen clean in years, replaced the rear tire, wheel dampers, bearings, did a brake job on the rears, greased and lubed everything and repaired anything that needed attention! All that cost around another $500. But the real cost came in the form of time to get parts and the rental car for the 3 weeks needed to continue going to work! Lol, that cost me about $800. plus another $150 in additional fuel costs, plus $200 to replace the windshield on the rental car when a bolt from a truck hit the glass in front of my face like a gunshot! What an ordeal! At any rate, the bike is on the road again and she purrs like a kitten and the bike actually feels like it's even more in harmony with the road than before. After all this back and forth parts search I've decided to compile a parts bin of some key items that have become hard to find and are subject to failure and wonder if any suggestions for specific parts has been discussed here before? I'll be including another drive shaft, a Valkrye u-joint, and maybe even an entire final drive unit, but any other suggestions would be appreciated!

I also want to thank everyone for their posts and help through the issue, this is by far the best forum for aiding a fellow rider that I have ever been a part of, both in the way the site is laid out, and the very good folks that frequent it! You guys are the BEST!

[Fuzzyswing]

I have a1996 GL1500 SE
I did post this same yesterday
But not under final drive.
I'm not able to remove the drive shaft from the differential. It's stuck
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[ct1500]

I have a1996 GL1500 SE
I did post this same yesterday
But not under final drive.
I'm not able to remove the drive shaft from the differential. It's stuck
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Push the shaft in then give it a good hard tug out using your feet to hold the drive. Greasing is required maintenance of the pinion cup and shaft, no gear oil allowed.

[MikeB]

The Honda Service Manual is your friend.
This is from the manual:

[dbdataplus]

Some of you may recognize my name from other forums so some of you may know that when I purchased (rescued) my 91 Aspencade 5 years back or so, I stripped it completely down to the frame. I cleaned and rebuilt EVERYTHING, right down to ripping out the piston of the air compressor.

The final drive was one thing I dove into completely because when I drained it, not very much oil came out... merely a few oz's. So I ripped into it completely breaking it in half, cleaning and servicing it. In doing so I discovered something I didn't know about the pinion joint... it acts as a pump to circulating the hypoid oil into that part (the cup) lubricating the pinion joint and drive shaft where the surfaces meet.

T Birdman... your pinion joint looks very dry. Mine had the same rust but was still "wet".

Once I removed the Pinion Joint, my adventure had begun. In the first picture of the Pinion Joint, you can see the "clean ring" where the nut held it in place on its shaft. What is hard to tell is that there is a solid 1/4 inch of "grease" at the bottom of the "cup" that you could see when the nut was removed. I noticed right away that along the shiny edge of the "clean area" that then nut had left behind, that there was a hole. Hmmm What's that?

Looking at the rear of the Pinion Joint, it really hit me of what was going on... or in fact what HAD gone on. There was actually 2 holes that went into the "cup" part of this. Looking at the design of these holes, their angles and the bit of machining on the other hole, this was a simple PUMP!

As the Pinion Joint spins it draws up Hypoid Oil that comes through the bearings where this Pinion Joint mounts and gets pumped into the inner cup of the this joint where the drive shaft mates to. It then "returns" back via the hole that was machined.

Then I had my epiphany moment... and OMG and WTF all rolled into one... I am not dealing with "GREASE" here... it's dried Hypoid Oil!!!!!!!

These holes were plugged... no oil getting to the spine of the drive shaft that mated with this Pinion Joint.

Make sure that everything is spotless in there as things get quite gummed up. I would at the very least flush out the final drive with solvent, blow it out to dry it and add new hypoid oil. Run it for 20 miles or so and then change the hypoid oil again as it may be thinned by residual solvents. Clean clean clean!!!!

Check out my pictures that show the final drive apart before and after cleaning.

Tim

/UserPictures/Mr ... tures_2540
/UserPictures/Mr ... blies_2542

I was bitten by this same problem ... 1,350 miles away from home. After I got the bike back I went through the forums and people suggested that the drive shaft at the U-joint wears, so I tore it all apart and found that the shaft and u-joint were perfect. I then put it all back together to it would ready for the salvage yard, since I was in no place to drop the engine to fix the transmission. But at the last minute I spun the rear wheel and it made the same grinding noise but felt different than when I was on the bike hearing it. After fully tearing apart the entire drive line I found the same problem - the Pinion Cup gears had worn to almost nothing ... but the slight change in the angle of the drive line when you're sitting on it versus when it's on the center stand hid that from me until you told me where to look! Thanks.

I also found the same "dried grease" and in my case I just bought a low mileage differential and shaft that has turned out to be perfect on close inspection. I'm replacing the U-joint, boot and oil seal anyway because I hope never to be in this neighborhood again

But I have a question:

EVERY * FIBER * OF * MY * BEING --- is screaming to grease the pinion cup and the rear shaft end upon final assembly!
But yet - if I understand you correctly - that is in reality the worst thing to do if this is truly an hypoid-oil lubricated part.

What do the experts say?

[MikeB]

Definitely grease the shaft end and and pinion cup with Moly Paste as shown in the service manual.

Use a new grease seal when you put it all together.

[dbdataplus]

Thanks Mike.
Will do.

My concern was that, contrary to first impressions, Oil and Grease don't really mix. I was wondering if the grease someone put there is what mixed with the hypoid oil to become the sludge that plugged the holes. But the Moly grease is sitting on the shelf so it will go into the final assembly.

My only remaining concern is - fate. How many times have each of us finally "fixed" a problem with a machine only to have some other part on that machine say "Oh yeah? You think so? Let ME show you what a breakdown is!" -- LOL

But a breakdown on a scenic highway beats at least half the days in the office ... so off I go!

thanks again
--Db

[MikeB]

I'm no expert by any means but I do believe grease and oil mixes quite readily. Dirt is the enemy.

[ct1500]

But I have a question:

EVERY * FIBER * OF * MY * BEING --- is screaming to grease the pinion cup and the rear shaft end upon final assembly!
But yet - if I understand you correctly - that is in reality the worst thing to do if this is truly an hypoid-oil lubricated part.

What do the experts say?

Just because something is on the Internet does not make it true or correct. Like I said earlier in this thread no gear oil allowed. I went into detail here regarding the regular greasing of the pinion cup as DriverRider and explained why things are the way they are.
https://www.goldwingfacts.com/threads/g ... ve.644153/