Timing Wheel


Information and questions on GL1500 Goldwings (1988-2000)
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Elmobile
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Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »



I have been chasing a poor mileage issue for a while now...
I rebuilt the carbs and corrected the vacuum lines, the IAT system is working, new air filetr (OEM), new plugs etc...
I am now thinking, as suggested by the service manual, that it could be a timing issue.
The PO had so much after market stuff and lights (Most of them removed to clean up the electrical) that I am now wondering if the timing wheel might have been replaced. In his day, it would most likely have been a 6 Deg advance wheel. If that is the case then I should run high 90 gas and not the regular / 10% ethanol gas that I have been using.
Is there any way to "see" which wheel is there? I have remove the belt cover because it needs some repairs. I really would like not to have to remove the right hand belt/pulley if at all possible.
I suppose that I could run with 90+ octane fuel and see if my mileage improve as well as the full throttle performance in 5th gear?
Any suggestions?



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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by DenverWinger »

If it isn't pinging on heavy throttle at low RPM I doubt the high octane fuel would do anything other than lighten your wallet faster.
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Elmobile
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »

No pinging that I could hear... Just nothing happen for the last third or so of throttle when in 5th. You kind to feel as well in 4th but it is not has pronounced. I may try a tank or two of 90 octane just to be thorough in eliminating possibilities. I keep looking :D
Thanks

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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by thebruce »

I believe the carbs on the 1500s are of the constant velocity (CV) variety.

There is a vacuum diaphragm that regulates the air entering the motor by moving a slide.

The throttle plates are located after the slide so if they are open further than the slide there is no effect on power delivery.

Throttle input in the higher gears and lower rpm gets a little vague, i.e. full throttle performance in 5th gear.

CV carbs tend to be pretty fuel efficient, as much as carbs can be.

They also generally have very nice manners as in ease of use and rideability. I can think of at least one exception to this rule but I will not utter its name here.

Right hand regulation has a lot to do with mileage. If you are doing a lot of full throttle pulls it will drag your mileage down considerably.

It sounds like you have done a lot of work to try to hunt this one down.

If you are thinking it's a timing issue I would suggest buying a pair of belts from your local auto parts house and making sure the timing is absolutely correct.

I would bet it will be quicker and easier than accessing and rebuilding the carbs, and the belts are probably worth a tank or 2 of the premium unleaded. Cheap thrills.

If you do choose to change the belts, and do it wrong, severe engine damage can result. Use caution, and WingAdmin's fun and accurate DIY article.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9774

Good luck.
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Elmobile
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »

Thank you Bruce,
The belts are brand new (Gates). There were changed about 2 years ago and they have no more than 5K kms on them...
Right now the belt cover is off as I was trying to see if it is possible to identify the trigger wheel as OEM or after market.
The main cover needs to be repaired (I have another tread on that waiting for advice) and will go back when it is done. I think I will get myself :lol: a timing light to check the advance.
To be noted, the mileage is just as bad when I was riding solo as to when I am pulling my sidecar... The Tulsa windshield does not help either.
The carbs were replaced with a 1996 set (my bike is a 1990) and the 1996 set rebuilt with a Randakk kit. Vacuum hose feeding the ICU was opened at the 90deg bend on the left manifold. All vacuum hose to the ECU are now new... AND still no improvement to the mileage...
Still looking to find something wrong :D

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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by thebruce »

I just remembered I had taken some pix last year when I was in there. And then I figured out (again) how to post them!

Unfortunately I don't think they will help much. Some idiot didn't take a side by side picture because he was all excited about the 4* advance...

You might be able to see the "OUT SIDE" engraved in the factory wheel, but I can't say it won't look exactly the same on an aftermarket wheel.

Very surprising the mileage doesn't change when you ditch the side hack. I have a Tulsa tall on mine as well, probably going to take a jigsaw to it to bring it down to my level. Brutal riding at night...

Out of curiousity, what is your calculated fuel economy, and are you using U.S gallons, Imperial Gallons, or l/100Km?
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by MikeB »

It appears that the OEM trigger wheel had 4 kidney shaped holes in it and the aftermarket trigger wheel did not. Plus, the aftermarket wheel says W-004 TRIGGER WHEEL on it. That should aid in identifying it.

I agree that running 90 octane will not help the fuel consumption. It is a slower burning fuel and will, as DenverWinger says, just lighten your wallet since there is no pre-ignition present with the 87 octane.

You didn't say what the current fuel mileage is. How bad is it that would necessitate the replacement of the carb? You did make sure that the '96 carb would be compatible with the '90 carb right? I understood that Honda made changes in the carbs at least every couple of years but I may be wrong. I will normally get 180 miles (289 km) out of a tank full of fuel. That is when the low fuel light has been on for about 15 miles (24 km). What are you experiencing?

As to the damaged timing belt cover (I saw it in another thread) it is made of some sort of plastic as far as I can tell. But I do not think it is ABS. I do not know what you can use to secure those nuts on the cover. You might try some two part epoxy or even some JB weld on it. I don't know how much clearance there is behind that cover but some kind of rivet on nut plate may work. Don't know. It is hard to tell what you have to work with while looking at the pictures you posted.
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Elmobile
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »

Thank you all,
Lets talk mileage. I am getting about 25m/G or 9.5-10l/100km. I did record one trip on the high way and got 20 m/G at a cruising speed of about 65!
At that speed I am about 3K rpm and 1/2 throttle, give and take. My biggest issue is that if I go to WOT, nothing seems to happen and going uphill it will slow down. That was with no sidecar.
I replaced the original carbs with a set of 1996. I was told they would work and indeed they seem to do the work :P . You need to make sure to keep the main jet and the needle from the 96 as the 90's will not work with those bodies. Also the pick up for the IAT is on the left carb body for the 96 but on the intake manifold for the 1990. I choose to plug the pick up on my intake and use the one on the carb instead. If Honda thought it was a good idea, I wasn't going to argue...
The reason to replace the original cards is because I could not get the mixture screws out. They were seized solid. We try to machined them out but the "copper" was so brittle that it chattered as soon as the tool touch it taking the thread with it... I had better luck doing this on other carbs before. Just didn't work for me on this set :( .

Those pictures are going to help but it looks like I need to remove the front pulley to see the center web. I was hoping that I would not have to do that! Oh well, it is what it is. I want to know what I have so I'll take it apart.
You know what they say: When everything else fails, follow the instructions! Poor performance/mileage is IAT or CAJ system according to the service manual. I know that the IAT does work when starting the bike cold: ie the valve close the air intake. I will warm up the bike to operating temperature and make sure that it does reopen at that time... I will also check the solenoids for the CAJ as per manual. I have check the temperature engine sensor but I do not believe it affect the mileage. I still need to check the air intake temperature sensor. This one can affect the mileage...

Yeah the Tulsa is bad at night and under the rain. You mention cutting it? How easy is it to cut it. I was thinking about it but worry to loose it all together. How low would you go?
Let you know how it goes. I have some other work to do before I can crank the engine.
Cheers.

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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by DenverWinger »

Elmobile wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:37 am
My biggest issue is that if I go to WOT, nothing seems to happen and going uphill it will slow down. That was with no sidecar.
You are very clearly lacking power somewhere, my 1500 will pull fully loaded camper trailer travelling 2 up, cruise control engaged, up some pretty significant hills in OD at 65 MPH without need to assist the CC or downshift. It will hold steady speed even with this load. Of course, fuel economy suffers pulling the camper, only around 25 MPG...

Maybe aftermarket "Stiff" diaphragms on the carb slides not allowing them to open fully?
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Elmobile
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »

Not sure. I would think that I have OEM slide diaphragm. Not sure either how to check if they open fully or not...
I suppose I would have to go for a ride without the air filter to see them moving... or not ;) ?
Has anyone heard of these guys. Not even sure if they are still offering this kit?
http://www.jbmindustries.com/KeihinVGinstructions.html
Any suggestions? But I like the idea. I am confidant that once I find what is wrong I will be able to fix it. For now I keep on looking!
Cheers,

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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by thebruce »

Elmobile wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:37 am

My biggest issue is that if I go to WOT, nothing seems to happen and going uphill it will slow down. That was with no sidecar.

Definitely underpowered. Could be an intake restriction.
DenverWinger's suggestion that the slide is not opening fully could be the answer.
Also a possibility that stiffer springs were put in behind the slides or if any of the air passages to the slides are restricted or blocked.
I would expect any of these conditions to cause the bike to lack power and/or run pig rich (poor mileage)


I replaced the original carbs with a set of 1996. I was told they would work and indeed they seemAlso the pick up for the IAT is on the left carb body for the 96 but on the intake manifold for the 1990.

not sure if you are using the 1990 sensor or the 1996 sensor but if they use different temperature coefficients it could cause problems.

Those pictures are going to help but it looks like I need to remove the front pulley to see the center web.

Unfortunately the timing pulley just perfectly covers the kidney shaped holes and the engraving on the aftermarket wheel.
The only marking that is potentially visible will be the "OUT SIDE" on the factory wheel. One of those little telescopic mirrors and a flashlight might make it possible
To fix the timing cover I second the 2 part epoxy and then run a tap into the brass to clean the threads up. Make sure there is no binding when you put the bolt back in, don't overtighten and it should be good to go.
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by MikeB »

Has the fuel mileage ever been acceptable in the time you or the previous owner operated the bike?
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Elmobile
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »

MikeB wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:01 pm
Has the fuel mileage ever been acceptable in the time you or the previous owner operated the bike?
Mike, The PO has long passed away. I got it from a fellow who was selling it for his widow...
So what it was with the PO, I don't know but it has always been bad with me.
thebruce wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:19 am
Elmobile wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:37 am

My biggest issue is that if I go to WOT, nothing seems to happen and going uphill it will slow down. That was with no sidecar.
Definitely underpowered. Could be an intake restriction.

I make sure the flap re-open when the engine is up to temperature. Right now it is closing when the bike start as it should.

DenverWinger's suggestion that the slide is not opening fully could be the answer.

Not sure how to check it. Is riding the bike with no air filter the proper way?

Also a possibility that stiffer springs were put in behind the slides or if any of the air passages to the slides are restricted or blocked.

It is behaving the same with both set of carbs... I have rebuilt the carbs and I made sure the slide were put in correctly.


I replaced the original carbs with a set of 1996. I was told they would work and indeed they seem to work. Also the pick up for the IAT is on the left carb body for the 96 but on the intake manifold for the 1990.

not sure if you are using the 1990 sensor or the 1996 sensor but if they use different temperature coefficients it could cause problems.
Same part # for all GL1500 for engine temperature sensor and air intake sensor... But thanks for the suggestion as I didn't think of that.

Those pictures are going to help but it looks like I need to remove the front pulley to see the center web.

Unfortunately the timing pulley just perfectly covers the kidney shaped holes and the engraving on the aftermarket wheel.
The only marking that is potentially visible will be the "OUT SIDE" on the factory wheel. One of those little telescopic mirrors and a flashlight might make it possible

Will do :cry:
To fix the timing cover I second the 2 part epoxy and then run a tap into the brass to clean the threads up. Make sure there is no binding when you put the bolt back in, don't overtighten and it should be good to go.

Will do...

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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by ct1500 »

thebruce wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:44 am
There is a vacuum diaphragm that regulates the air entering the motor by moving a slide.
The throttle plates are located after the slide so if they are open further than the slide there is no effect on power delivery.
Throttle input in the higher gears and lower rpm gets a little vague, i.e. full throttle performance in 5th gear.
There are four carburetor circuits in Keihin 1500 carbs. Idle, main, secondary main and starter. Starter is a separate system that allows air and fuel to enter the engine below the throttle plates at an overly rich mixture during cold start when using enrichment lever. Idle circuit is just that, when throttle plates are closed fuel is metered via mixture screws into engine below the plates mixing with the available air entering engine at nearly closed idle openings. As RPM increases and throttle plates begin to open from idle stop screw the main (jet) carb circuit begins to kick in at about 1200RPM engine under load. Main jet opening is above throttle plate on inside of venturi. Secondary main is the slide which begins operation at higher RPM and engine load demands as venturi vacuum increases so does the slide action opening further providing more fuel. This fuel enters the engine from the opening where the slide needle resides opposite the piston. Idle circuit is cumulative which means its' fuel contribution is always present throughout the engines operation.

At light to moderate engine operation on level ground and slower speeds you can ride around town all day long with little to no slide opening, operating only on the idle and main circuits. As engine load increases i.e. pulling on hills, harder acceleration, faster speeds does the venturi vacuum increase to a point when the slides start to pull back providing more fuel, not necessarily a larger air opening. The throttle plate is still predominant for determining engine intake air amount when the secondary main slide is working properly.

A good analogy to the slide action on the 1500 is a four barrel carburetor. The muscle car guys wanted mechanical secondaries where all four barrels opened at the same time or shortly after the front two. Detroit, due to drivetrain longevity, fuel mileage and emissions concerns gave the family ride small primaries (in effect running on two small barrels) and large vacuum secondaries which opened slowly (compared to mechanical) when the gas pedal was mashed down hard. :)
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by ct1500 »

Your '96 carbs would probably have had the unmarked plastic tubes and rubber connectors. Those are the #18 and #19 hoses that go the the air jet controllers which are marked what goes where. Be certain that the top port of left carb in front tees correctly to top port in rear of right carb and likewise for bottom ports. Top port is #19 and lower #18. Easy to get them crossed up and would likely affect both mileage and power.
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by MikeB »

It is definitely lacking power.

When you changed the spark plugs, did you think to do a compression check when you had all the plugs removed?

The reason I ask is since this problem has been there since you bought the bike, perhaps the previous owner replaced the belts or had someone else replace them and someone managed to crash a piston into a valve. I know it is a long shot but it just doesn't sound like you are running on all six cylinders.
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »

My plan was to check the slide movements this afternoon. I’ll check the hose 18 & 19 for proper location. Both solenoid valves do seal when closed. I’ll also do the proper check as per service manual.
I was going to check the compression as well. Just borough the tool for it. There is no noise or “ticking” of any kind. So I was thinking that may be a lifter does not fully return in place. I’ve read some issue like that...
I will report my findings later on today.
Thanks for the help!
Cheers.

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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »

Good progress this afternoon.
I first checked the CAJ tubing location. No crossing, #18 is on the bottom and #19 on the top.
I also checked the compression. No sure about the absolute # from the gauge but all values are tightly grouped which is good.
#1 = 160
#2 = 150
#3 = 155
#4 = 155
#5 = 155
#6 = 155 as well...
The timing wheel is indeed the OEM as you can see the "OUTSIDE" marking on it.

OEM Timing Wheel
OEM Timing Wheel

I also removed the air filter and cranked the engine. You can clearly see the slides moving, well only one of them! The left carb appears to be fine but the right one is no go. Both slides will move freely when push by hand and the spring will bring them back. But with the engine running 4500/5000 rpm only the left side open.
Looks like I will have to dive back into it and double check the diaphragm. I am confident that I put the orientation tab correctly but will see...
When I replaced the initial carbs, I also replaced the 90deg vacuum tube to the ECU. Could have been the problem all along with that set and I may have another problem with the new set showing similar symptoms?

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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by CrystalPistol »

Elmobile wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:30 pm
I have been chasing a poor mileage issue for a while now...
… etc …
Any suggestions?
What is this poor mileage you write about?

Numbers?
Elmobile wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:30 pm

I also removed the air filter and cranked the engine. You can clearly see the slides moving, well only one of them! The left carb appears to be fine but the right one is no go. …
That's only half of throttle in use at WOT, that'll screw with it but good! Sure, throttle plates open maybe but if the slides don't move, no air to go with the fuel.


Under a best case, especially when you're dragging a air brake off the right side, a 1500 in 5th is not gonna "jump" at any throttle position, it's gonna use fuel fast (compared to???) too.
Last edited by CrystalPistol on Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by MikeB »

Good to hear. Looks like you are zeroing in on the problem.
Its very good to hear that the compression is good.

I think he said the mileage was poor with or without the hack.
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by ct1500 »

It is always with the carbs, or like Ivory soap 99.7% of the time. ;)
The slides provide a ton of fuel. You were in essence running on half an engine at cruise speeds. The power will be a pronounced improvement when repaired.
It sounds counterintuitive but your fuel mileage will increase.
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »

I went back to the shop, remove the bottom half of the air box and pop the carbs out of the boots (Which are brand new from Randakk).
I checked the diaphragm. It does look good, no tears or hole in it. I put everything back together being extra careful that the "tab" line up correctly.

Crank the engine but still the slide will not move.
A subjective feeling but the left side seems to suck more air than the right one when at idle with both slides all the way down...
Would anyone have any suggestion has to what I can look for next?

And yes I agree, right now it's almost like having half the engine power :cry:

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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by ct1500 »

You shoulda put zippers on those carbs. :) Before installation of carbs you can check slide action with a shop vac held underneath the throttle plates. Put the vac hose in a vise, bring the rack down to it opening throttle plates. The suction imitates manifold vacuum and will pull the slide back. Swap slides side to side to indeed confirm a bad one. Parts of the enrichment system in carb body can also cause a problem with slide operation. With carbs inverted or held overhead check that the brass plugs are installed in carb body either side of carb opening. Be careful with the shop vac as it will pull fuel out of the carb in the process and I doubt your vac is intrinsically safe. :o
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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by Elmobile »

Thank you ct1500 for all the information.
I am not sure I understand how the enrichment system would affect the slide. What should I be looking for?
What are those brass plugs? Can't say I did notice them (or not) when I rebuilt the carbs ;)

Not as good as zippers but a new set of boots sure ease the removal. I had to use a pry bar to get them out of the old harden boots. Tonight they came out with just a firm pull :D . I guess those carbs are coming out tomorrow. Thanks for the shop vac hint. I will be able to check them before putting every thing back!

Will update tomorrow.
Cheers

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Re: Timing Wheel

Post by ct1500 »

As you are finding out pulling the carbs off time and again is not fun or productive. When working on a 1500 I will spend whatever time necessary to diagnose the problem(s) before tearing into things, because once apart you can't go back thinking I should have checked this or that. The enrichment angle is a shot in the dark but worth mentioning. With enrichment system active the mixture is already rich, the last thing you want are the slides dumping more fuel into the engine. The Engineers realize this and bleed off some vacuum limiting slide action when the system is operational. The brass plugs are core plugs where drilling has occurred and will be obvious when looked for but the goal is to do this once.

Both carb throats should be making the same amount of induction noise which now might signal another problem with the idle circuit or sync way out of whack. You need to do the carb clean spray test at idle outlined here before tearing into it again. Scroll down to lean carbs. Controlled spray starting with just a drip or two out of straw noting RPM changes while keeping lower air box in place. I get a sense the right side carb results with increasing RPM will be different from the left. If the right side is lean then you will have to open (CCW) the mixture screw for that carb 1/2 turn and retest. The 1/2 turn is for testing purposes to see if it does make a difference and confirms if the idle circuit is fully operational. They still need final adjustment later on.
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Last edited by ct1500 on Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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