Fuel Pump failure


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Tim 1956
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Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »



I have a 94 goldwing 1500i and it was running great and then I had to start using the choke half way or more to keep it running. Upon removing the fuel pump I notice the large gas line that bends into a 90 was torn in half where it slides onto the upper part of the tank. Now I can't find the gas line for it. Auto shops say it is a submersible gas line. I also have no power to the fuel pump until I hit the starter switch and then the gas comes out of the small metal tube on top of the fuel pump lid. But being disconnected from the hose I would think it would pump gas with no pressure on it. Am I wrong or is the entire problem just the torn hose that now I can't find?
Thanks.
Tim




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ct1500
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by ct1500 »

The fuel pump can cavitate throwing out air bubbles into the output stream. That hose diverts air bubbles up and away from the pump and will have no affect on output pressure of sealed output hose during your testing with machine stationary.
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Tim 1956
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

So why has my bike stopped running unless I use half choke or more? Others on here have told me there is no fuel pump relay for 94 goldwing.
Now I am very lost. 2 different answers on here.
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4given
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by 4given »

Fuel shutoff diaphragm or pulse line? If it’s not functioning properly the fuel pump won’t be able to deliver fuel to carbs even if it is working right. ct already explained the large soft hose with the bend in it. It carries no fuel.
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Tim 1956
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

I rebuilt the fuel shut of diaphragm a few months ago. works great. I have no idea what a pulse line is. Some said about that big line only pressurizes the fuel tank as now when I open the gas cap there is no... WOOOOSH coming out. It is all lost in the tank and probably making the pump cavitate like they said. I am ordering a used fuel pump. Cannot find that submersible size fuel line anywhere. Only 5/16 line i.d. Guess I will find out when I put the new used pump in. Thanks so much. I appreciate everyone's comments and help. :D
Tim
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ct1500
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by ct1500 »

Tim 1956 wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:45 am I rebuilt the fuel shut of diaphragm a few months ago. works great.

Have you tested the petcock with a vacuum pump to see if it will hold a vacuum and that the fuel carrying ports are then open and clear and with no vacuum applied that it closes?
Tim 1956 wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:45 am Some said about that big line only pressurizes the fuel tank as now when I open the gas cap there is no... WOOOOSH coming out.
In no way does that hose pressurize the fuel tank. It is to remove any air bubbles from the pressure (discharge) side of pump if the pump cavitates. Fuel vapors when warmed or heated expand in the tank which will create a positive pressure. The job of the fuel cap is to contain a certain amount of pressure in the tank as venting fuel vapors directly to atmosphere has been illegal for many years now under EPA SHED emission regulations.
Tim 1956 wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:45 am It is all lost in the tank and probably making the pump cavitate like they said. I am ordering a used fuel pump.
Very easy routine in the manual to test your fuel pump before condemning it. Or just test the output pressure with a gauge which should be 1.5psi. :)
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Tim 1956
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

Thanks so much. Have no idea how to test the petcock, but apparently it's been working. I had no problems rebuilding it a few months ago. The big black line was cracked almost all the way through and the entire hose has crack all through it. The fuel pump is fine....I just can't find a new hose to replace the cracked one, so I have no choice but to buy a whole fuel pump. I contacted a honda shop and they looked the pump up and they do not sell the tubing separate. It is all one unit. I've definitely got fuel pump pressure when I disconnected the top line that feeds the carbs. It shoot out really good.
Thanks so much for you detailed observations and suggestions. I appreciate it. Just trying to find the right fuel pump to get on ebay. Had one for a 93 and they checked and was told it would not work with a 94. I'm seeing fuel pumps that are good for 90-2000 are supposed to be the same. I have no idea. So much confusion on ebay on what works or what is right.
Thanks.
Tim :?
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by AZgl1800 »

The manual states something to the effect of connecting a hose to the output of the fuel pump,

raise it to 3 feet above the pump, and it should pump a pint of gas into a container in less than 3 minutes IIRC. :)

for this test, you remove the Black wire ( positive lead ) and jumper direct to the battery.
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Tim 1956
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

Thanks for your response and suggestion. I will have to wait until I get that big hose or another fuel pump to try that I guess. But as much gas and pressure that came out of the top tube on the fuel pump, I'm quite positive that it is pumping more than enough. But I will do that if I still have problems once I fix the main thing first. Would like to know how and were to check the vacuum on the petcock. Wish that could be replaced with something manual or electronic. Such a dumb idea.
Thanks.
Tim
:)
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by bluthundr31 »

Tim, I'm beginning to think and the hose that you're having trouble locating is actually the 'breather" hose. The aftermarket fuel pump that I installed does not require that hose, so I removed it and set it in the workshop. The Gates 27093 hose from Amazon is for fuel output and might have a different I.D./O.D than the breather hose. You should not have to replace that hose if it is the "breather" hose.
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Tim 1956
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

Yes, bluethundr31, it is the breather hose. As now or right before I have no more gas cap pressure either when I open it. Do you have a link or name for that aftermarket pump so I can look at it? Does it work just as good?
Thanks so much. Can't believe this hose is not available anywhere.
Thanks.
Tim
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by DenverWinger »

Tim 1956 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:11 am I will have to wait until I get that big hose or another fuel pump to try that I guess. But as much gas and pressure that came out of the top tube on the fuel pump, I'm quite positive that it is pumping more than enough.
I suspect the only time the breather hose really does anything is when the tank is getting near empty... With good fuel delivery this is NOT what is causing your bike to run badly. If the breather is splitting you could try to repair it with some gasoline-resistant gasket cement and a bunch of zip ties, and just put it back in.

With good fuel pressure just bandage up the breather as best you can and put the pump back in the tank. Your problems lie either in the carburetors or the vacuum operated fuel shutoff valve (petcock) located inside the fuel filler door just to the front of the gas cap. You can bypass it for a test (disconnect the furl lines from the petcock and connect them together). If doing that causes the bike to run better then the petcock needs rebuilt. If the bike runs the same with the petcock bypassed then you will have to dig into the carburetors.
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Tim 1956
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

Thanks. I guess you have missed my other posts. I totally rebuilt the carbs and fuel petcock. Everything is so difficult to get to. I never did like the vacuum fuel petcock. what a stupid idea. I would rather manually turn off and on the petcock. More safer and secure. I will have to check that somehow. thanks so much for the idea. :)
Tim
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by 4given »

Denver tried to explain it. We all did. I don’t know how else to put it. To check the fuel shut off you basically have to bypass it. If the motor runs better with the shut off bypassed then the shut off is faulty. You already told us that the fuel pump is delivering fuel. The big breather hose is not necessary for the pump to work. As ct1500 explained, it basically directs cavitation away from the supply hose. It does not carry fuel or create pressure in the tank. Hope this helps.
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by dingdong »

If the bike is getting enough fuel from the pump and through the petcoc* to run on 1/2 choke (enrichener adds more fuel) then it will getting enough fuel to run through the carb circuits. I'm betting on a problem in the carbs themselves. I realize you say you rebuilt the carbs but stuff happens all the time. However it's your money. Good luck!
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Tim 1956
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

4given wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:54 am Denver tried to explain it. We all did. I don’t know how else to put it. To check the fuel shut off you basically have to bypass it. If the motor runs better with the shut off bypassed then the shut off is faulty. You already told us that the fuel pump is delivering fuel. The big breather hose is not necessary for the pump to work. As ct1500 explained, it basically directs cavitation away from the supply hose. It does not carry fuel or create pressure in the tank. Hope this helps.
Yes, I am having a difficult time understanding from one comment to another as some are repeating what I have already said and done. I am getting ready to try and run it again without that hose since I have learned it only helps when the gas gets low in the tank and mine is full to the top of the fuel pump lid. I guess I will have to bypass the vacuum petcock somehow. I am not as brilliant as I used to be in my younger days. Part of old age I guess. thank you all for your patience and advise. I really do appreciate it. After rebuilding so many things on this bike since I have had it since last feb. I did lots of work to it and it was running great until now, but there were times it would start surging at a stop light, but when I got warmed up and hot it would run and idle fantastic. I know the carbs are good and I cleaned them out completely and replaced all the jets and reset / checked the floats. 8mm. Thanks again. :)
Tim
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by bellboy40 »

To bypass the fuel petcock, just remove the fuel line from the output of the fuel filter. Then remove the fuel line from the petcock that goes back toward the carbs and connect it to the output of the fuel filter. That lets the fuel flow from the filter straight to the carbs.

GL1500 petcock
GL1500 petcock

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Tim 1956
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

bellboy40 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:01 am To bypass the fuel petcock, just remove the fuel line from the output of the fuel filter. Then remove the fuel line from the petcock that goes back toward the carbs and connect it to the output of the fuel filter. That lets the fuel flow from the filter straight to the carbs.
Petcock connections.jpg
Yes, I have spent the past 2 hours or so removing fairing parts and pulling the outgoing fuel line to the carbs and it was pumping out gas. However when I removed the vacuum line to the petcock and let it run, it would never shut down for lack of gas. If anything, the petcock is not closing and it open all the time. But I had plenty of gas spraying out of the out tube. I also check each spark plug pulling them of and it would make a slight difference and you could hear the spark. Now when it sets there idling it idles perfectly until I start revving the engine for a few seconds or so using more gas and then it starts idling rough and surging. I am really at a loss now and don't know what to check neck at it all checks out ok. Plenty of gas from both ends. Thanks so much for all your suggestions and help. :)
Tim
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by dingdong »

Since you have fuel flow out of the petcoc* there is only one other explanation. (The carbs). I realize you said that you rebuilt the carbs. Could you give us an explanation of exactly how you rebuilt them? Did you use a kit? Just clean and put back together? Or what? If you used a kit, which kit? Why did you replace jets? Jets almost never need replacing and after market jets are never dependable. The only exception is the idle air mixture jets and that is only if they are broken or defective in some other way. Don't get discouraged but you are going to have to revisit your carb rebuild.

Edit: The petcoc* is only open when the engine is running. Closes when the engine is off. No vacuum...
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by dingdong »

Quote: "Now when it sets there idling it idles perfectly until I start revving the engine for a few seconds or so using more gas and then it starts idling rough and surging"
I just reread your last post and caught the above statement. That is different than what you have been saying. Why don't you pull the spark plugs and post a picture of them so we can see how they are firing.
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

I bought the carb kits from online that came from taiwan. It was about $50 to replace everything except for the 2 capped screws that are square that need a special tool to take them out. Maybe it's the air screw. But I did change the slow jets and the other one and set the floats. The kit came with all the jets and "O" rings. the Jets were blocked with rock hard sand. Never hurts to replace jets. The bike sat for quite a few years I imagine. If I would tear into the carbs again, I would not be able to see anything unless there was a visible blockage. The bike runs fine when riding it from before with about half choke. I had the carbs out 3 times before I put it back together the first time to triple check everything that I did and replace the "O" ring on the accelerator pump. That was a task. But if it comes to that, I guess I will have to. I have a used fuel pump on the way, so I am waiting for that and see what happens. Can't imagine why the carbs would be blocked. I have ridden it at least once a week or so for about 30 minutes to an hour. No chance for the gas to harden or gel. I have a new fuel filter in it also. I was always filling it up. It's been running perfect since I rebuilt them back in march and then poof. It never sits... so I don't see the problem. thanks so much. :?
Tim
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

dingdong wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:47 pm Since you have fuel flow out of the petcoc* there is only one other explanation. (The carbs). I realize you said that you rebuilt the carbs. Could you give us an explanation of exactly how you rebuilt them? Did you use a kit? Just clean and put back together? Or what? If you used a kit, which kit? Why did you replace jets? Jets almost never need replacing and after market jets are never dependable. The only exception is the idle air mixture jets and that is only if they are broken or defective in some other way. Don't get discouraged but you are going to have to revisit your carb rebuild.

Edit: The petcoc* is only open when the engine is running. Closes when the engine is off. No vacuum...
That was why I disconnected the vacuum line to the petcock simulating the engine off. No more suction. but it never would stop running. So, plenty of gas. Thanks. :?
Tim
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by MikeB »

Tim 1956 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:16 pm
dingdong wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:47 pm Since you have fuel flow out of the petcoc* there is only one other explanation. (The carbs). I realize you said that you rebuilt the carbs. Could you give us an explanation of exactly how you rebuilt them? Did you use a kit? Just clean and put back together? Or what? If you used a kit, which kit? Why did you replace jets? Jets almost never need replacing and after market jets are never dependable. The only exception is the idle air mixture jets and that is only if they are broken or defective in some other way. Don't get discouraged but you are going to have to revisit your carb rebuild.

Edit: The petcoc* is only open when the engine is running. Closes when the engine is off. No vacuum...
That was why I disconnected the vacuum line to the petcock simulating the engine off. No more suction. but it never would stop running. So, plenty of gas. Thanks. :?
Tim
With the petcoc* valve vacuum disconnected, there could be enough fuel for a reliable idle if the diaphram in the petcoc* is torn. If the engine did not die after a couple of minutes of idling, then there is a good chance the petcoc* is damaged.

By the same token if the diaphram is torn, the petcoc* will not open all the way to pass all the fuel the engine needs and will cause poor runability off idle. Could it be just the petcoc* that needs attention?

The clinical way to test the petcoc* (Auto Fuel Valve) is to connect Vacuum Pump like a Mity-Vac. Apply vacuum, about 7 inches of vacuum, to the valve. Vacuum should be maintained. If the vacuum is not held the valve needs to be rebuilt or replaced.

Or, to road test the petcoc*, bypass it like others have said and then road test it.
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by AZgl1800 »

Tim 1956 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:16 pm That was why I disconnected the vacuum line to the petcock simulating the engine off. No more suction. but it never would stop running. So, plenty of gas. Thanks. :?
Tim
This is a perfect indication that the diaphragm inside the Vacuum Shutoff petcok has a leak.
Pinhole, or torn, but it is not working.

it needs to be repaired.
CycleMax has the repair kit.

https://cyclemax.com/inc/sdetail/gl1500 ... _kit/20457
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Tim 1956
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Re: Fuel Pump failure

Post by Tim 1956 »

Yes, I just rebuilt the fuel petcock about 7 months ago with a new kit. It has worked the same ever since. Removing the vacuum line never would stop my engine from running but it still ran great until the other day.
Thanks for your suggestion. ;)
Tim


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