Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning


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Farflungblue
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Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Farflungblue »



Hi Guys (& Gals),
Having recently purchased a 1996 Aspencade I’ve been following Goldwingsdocs for a lot of useful information.
The issue/problem I’m interested in at the moment is the reverse gear operation and I’m just trying to understand the mechanisms involved before an invasive check.
Symptoms are everything does as it should when engaging reverse gear but when the starter is pressed the starter motor spins seemingly without resistance and no drive to rear wheel.
Bellboy40 mentioned checking whether you are able to turn rear wheel when reverse engaged and this has been done and found engaged ( it’s not able to be moved apart from some limited backlash through the gear train which would seem normal). This leads me to believe the idler gear is still intact and not broken as some have experienced. So my thoughts are possibly the reduction gears for the reverse system in the actual starter itself being broken stripped etc. However, I have found limited information on this and other sites ( and internet in general) so wonder if it’s a rare event or because Honda do not list the reverse reduction mechanism as separate parts thus necessitating whole assembly or starter purchase to resolve. I’m a mechanical engineer by trade but appreciate the complexity and extent of a engine out job, should it come down to it, thus hopefully someone may shed some light on this so to avoid?


LAB3
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by LAB3 »

Can't say that I've owned one or worked on one but maybe some pictures can help you out, especially if you're an engineer.

https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts ... a-ac-parts
Farflungblue
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Farflungblue »

Thanks LAB3,
Yes I do like a good schematic to try and understand what’s going on and how things work but unfortunately the parts drawings don’t provide sufficient detail. The workshop manual I’ve found to be best as they detail individual parts of the starter reverse system.
I was rather hoping someone may have come across this phenomenon previously so they could share there experience and resolutions. It’s not causing major issues at moment as it starts and rides fine I just want to get everything working as it should at some point and will start removing parts for inspection when I have time just wanted to get a heads up really.
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Rambozo
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Rambozo »

Does it look like the starter has been replaced?
If so the gear that mates with the starter can be broken by forcing the starter on with the bolts.
That will cause the symptoms you have. It also requires the engine out for the fix.

There is a super easy and cheap fix.
Just get some Interstate emblems. Job done. ;)
Farflungblue
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Farflungblue »

From the brief look I've had under and around the panels checking for anything obvious I dont think so. Although its a 1996 vintage it's only done 33k miles and checking previous mot data has been used every year for between 1000 & 2000 miles.
Farflungblue
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Farflungblue »

If the idler gear was broken, which I've read about, why would the transmission lock and engage correctly and not be able to turn rear wheel as it would mean it was engaged with the reverse gear reduction drive on starter, hence my dilemma.
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Rambozo
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Rambozo »

You can pull the starter to confirm.
Last edited by Rambozo on Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Farflungblue
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Farflungblue »

Hi thanks for the input.

There are 2 sets of reduction gears in the starter motor assembly, the first is for the starter shaft which turns over engine via 2 planetary gears driving shaft and another which further reduces the revolution of the starters armature, through a further 2 planetary gears, to drive the final drive shaft through the idler gear once engaged.
The parts diagram only shows the second set as a reduction box but it’s shown in greater detail in the workshop manual.
It took me a little time to understand the process while studying the schematic in manual but now that I do I still can’t explain why the motor spins yet the rear wheel is positively engaged.
My only thought is that the dowel which holds the outer gear of the two planetary gears in the reduction gearbox on the starter motor has sheared or is broken thus allowing it to spin in its housing instead of driving idler gear.
Just wondering whether anyone else has experienced this?
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by WingAdmin »

Farflungblue wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:58 am Hi thanks for the input.

There are 2 sets of reduction gears in the starter motor assembly, the first is for the starter shaft which turns over engine via 2 planetary gears driving shaft and another which further reduces the revolution of the starters armature, through a further 2 planetary gears, to drive the final drive shaft through the idler gear once engaged.
The parts diagram only shows the second set as a reduction box but it’s shown in greater detail in the workshop manual.
It took me a little time to understand the process while studying the schematic in manual but now that I do I still can’t explain why the motor spins yet the rear wheel is positively engaged.
My only thought is that the dowel which holds the outer gear of the two planetary gears in the reduction gearbox on the starter motor has sheared or is broken thus allowing it to spin in its housing instead of driving idler gear.
Just wondering whether anyone else has experienced this?
If the starter is starting the engine, then you can rule out the starter itself as being part of the problem.

As already mentioned here - when you shift into reverse, it engages the rear wheel with a complex set of reduction gears, to the starter motor. These reduction gears make it so that the rear wheel can not be turned by hand, as the mechanical disadvantage of the reduction is too great.

A common problem is that people install the starter motor incorrectly. They'll take it off to service it or whatever, then they put it back on. Done correctly, it is pushed by hand all the way until it meets the mating surface, then bolted in place. If it won't go in all the way, it's because the starter motor reverse shaft gear is not correctly mating with the gear inside the engine. You need to pull it out, rotate it a bit, and try again.

However, people don't know this, and when the starter motor doesn't seat all the way in, they just put the bolts in and crank it down until it does. Unfortunately, in doing so, it cracks and breaks the gear inside the engine. The symptoms of the end result is exactly what you are now experiencing.

And as mentioned, it is an engine-out repair, unfortunately.

That is the most common cause of this.

The other possible cause is the reduction gearset inside the starter itself. There are two planetary gearsets in there, one for the starter shaft, and one for the reverse gear. If the reverse gear gearset has failed, you can get this behavior, where the starter will start the engine, but the reverse will just spin without moving. This is much less common, however.
Farflungblue
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Farflungblue »

Thanks for that,
Frustratingly I can’t do an inspection at the moment as I’m working abroad, but in either of the scenarios here I will need to pull starter and have a look. Obviously I’m hoping for the rarest event mentioned and it’s just a starter motor/ reduction box repair/ replacement (Honda don’t sell spares for the box). The signs are good as, as you say, the mechanical advantage of the reduction gears make it unable to be turned once engaged, but to complete this train to the starter reduction gears from the rear wheel the idler gear must be in one piece, thus not broken.
I will provide a full report of findings for others once inspected and fault detected.
Thanks for everyone’s input thus far.
BillyIrvin
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by BillyIrvin »

Just asking, but have you tried moving the shift lever while trying to place it in reverse. It maybe not moving from one gear to the Adler completely. On yours do you pull the reverse handle out to the side and then pull up on it. Some people try to force it straight up and can mess with the gears and causing them not to mesh properly. Hope this helps.
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Farflungblue »

Hi Billyivin,
Yeah, the lever is pulled out moved vertical until pin engages and then pushes in fine. All the adjustment, according to the manual, is spot on and lights on dash confirm as being engaged etc. It feels as if it’s getting a good engagement (the part that actually engages reverse is the reduction part of the idler, the inner splined gear, to the final drive shaft) the starter reverse gear to idler is permanently engaged as is the starter to starter dog clutch via small idler. Just frustrating can’t get into it until I get back to actually find problem.

Thank again for input.
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by WingAdmin »

This is what it looks like if the starter has been pushed into the case improperly, breaking the gear inside the engine case:

Broken starter gear
Broken starter gear

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Rambozo
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Rambozo »

Great photo!
Except that one has broken the starting idler gear, the reverse idler is the larger one on the right. You will need to turn that gear to check that it has all it's teeth and that the gear is still connected to the hub. I couldn't find a photo of a broken reverse gear, but there is this.



Techdude2000
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Re: Reverse Gear Starter motor Spinning

Post by Techdude2000 »

Farflungblue wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:43 am Hi Billyivin,
Yeah, the lever is pulled out moved vertical until pin engages and then pushes in fine. All the adjustment, according to the manual, is spot on and lights on dash confirm as being engaged etc. It feels as if it’s getting a good engagement (the part that actually engages reverse is the reduction part of the idler, the inner splined gear, to the final drive shaft) the starter reverse gear to idler is permanently engaged as is the starter to starter dog clutch via small idler. Just frustrating can’t get into it until I get back to actually find problem.

Thank again for input.
This all sounds like a defective starter gear set. If the reverse idler was broken, the rear wheel would turn and not be locked to the starter gear while in reverse.


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