Accident looked like minor damage


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Mike D 1990 Goldwing
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Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Mike D 1990 Goldwing »



I had a accident Wednesday, I was east bound in the right lane and a car in front of me had brake lights on so I checked and moved into the left lane, when I got up next to the car I was behind the car in front of me stopped because another car in a turn lane was stopped with part of their car in the left lane instead of being all the way in the turn lane. I braked and the front tire must have hit some gravel, so it slid, and I went down on the right side, after that the bike must have slid into the back bumper of the car, it hit on the lower light on the left side. I got the bike upright and started it to move it out of the way. later I drove it home, but it wasn't running right like it was running on 3 cylinders. Today I started taking it apart and found that the housing on the timing belt and the aluminum housing behind it was broken. I took as much of the timing belt cover of as I could, and the belt is off because the pulley appears to be broken in the center. I guess my question, is there any chance since the belt came off that I didn't damage the motor beyond repair?? If I did damage it How can I tell without tearing it apart?
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DenverWinger
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by DenverWinger »

Get a new belt (and pulley if needed), put the belt on timed correctly, then do a compression test. Any bent valves or holed pistons will show very low compression in that cylinder.

If the old pulley isn't too badly bent and it looks like the belt would stay on while cranking the starter with sparkplugs out you could get by on that for the compression test.

If compression is still ok in the three left cylinders you got very lucky.
There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary numbers, and those that don't. :lol:

♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:
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Rambozo
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Rambozo »

I would advise the same but with a leakdown test so you don't have to spin the engine over with the starter. Maybe you got lucky and didn't hurt anything. It would be a shame if you bend a valve while doing a compression test because the damaged cam sprocket gave out.
Mike D 1990 Goldwing
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Mike D 1990 Goldwing »

That sounds at least a little encouraging, I did notice the part the cover for the timing belt is broken but the belt doesn't look damaged. Is the part behind the timing belt a separate part from the engine cases or is it part of the cases? The leak down test I have heard before, but I don't know what it is or how to do it.
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Rambozo »

It is a separate part.
Have a look here for the bits you need.
https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda ... ront-cover
Cylinder leakage test is like a backwards compression test. You put compressed air into the cylinder and measure how much leaks out. While the gauge is nice for most things you don't really need it, just a spark plug adapter hooked to a compressor will do the job. Then feel at the exhaust pipe for exhaust valve leak, carbs for intake valve leak, oil fill for ring leaks, radiator for blown head gasket. One advantage over a compression test is you learn what is causing the problem. The other advantage is you don't have to spin the engine. Just turn it by hand to bring the piston up to TDC otherwise the air will try to turn the engine.
You can often rent or loan one at some auto parts stores or Harbor Freight has them for semi low cost.
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by DenverWinger »

I'd submit that whatever damage that could possibly be done from this incident has already been done from driving the bike home on three cylinders.....

Just put the timing belt on and do a simple compression test.

Before rotating the cam to the timing marks be sure the crankshaft is not exactly on the T1 mark, position it so that it is midway from the T1 mark between the T2 or T3 timing marks, (move crankshaft about 60 degrees from T1 mark, either direction) this assures none of the pistons are at TDC. Then position your cam pulley to the timing mark. Once the cam pulley is in position, then rotate crankshaft exactly back to the T1 mark and install the belt.
There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary numbers, and those that don't. :lol:

♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by bellboy40 »

If you drove it home with that belt not turning the camshaft, you almost certainly have done some damage to the valves and/or the pistons. I could be wrong but it doesn't sound good to me that there could be no engine damage.
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by WingAdmin »

bellboy40 wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:26 pm If you drove it home with that belt not turning the camshaft, you almost certainly have done some damage to the valves and/or the pistons. I could be wrong but it doesn't sound good to me that there could be no engine damage.
Not necessarily. The valve springs will try to close the valves, which can rotate the cam - that's why the right side cam sprocket "springs" when you remove the timing belts at T-1. IF the cam sprocket could turn freely, and if it was in a position where the valves could move it, it's possible that it rotated such that all the valves are closed - which would mean no impact from pistons. That's a big IF.

Something else I see is the cam sprocket appears to be bent upwards - so either the sprocket itself is bent, or the cam itself is bent. If it's the cam...well, that's the end of the engine.

First thing to do is a compression test on the left side cylinders.
Mike D 1990 Goldwing
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Mike D 1990 Goldwing »

That was my hope, I started it to move it off the road and it didn't run right, like not on all the cylinders and it did smoke some, but I didn't hear any outstanding noise. The pulley is actually loose or broken, I haven't disassembled it far enough yet to know for sure which. My daily driver has a clutch slave issue that I want to get fixed before I work on my Goldwing. I have a couple people suggest using an endoscope, I think that's the right name of the little camera on the end of a wire to look in to see if there is any damage. Do you think that would work or is it a waste of time?
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Mike D 1990 Goldwing »

I haven't felt like working on it, because if it is engine damage, I will be really depressed. I just spent a lot of time this spring getting carbs rebuilt and had it running really well. I looked up the compression for my bike and what I came up with was 220 psi. Is there a range for the compression? I was thinking it would be something like 175 psi to 220.
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by DenverWinger »

Regardless the spec if there's a bent valve that cylinder will read very low compression.
There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary numbers, and those that don't. :lol:

♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Rambozo »

An endoscope will spot catastrophic damage, but could miss a slightly bent valve. As I said before just blow some air into the cylinders to see if you have any leaks. Otherwise to do a compression test, you will first need to repair the belt and sprocket and get the cam timed. And you could find all that work was for nothing if the engine is junk. Honda typically lists new specs aa well as a service limit. Compression should be 150psi or better for a good runner.
Mike D 1990 Goldwing
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Mike D 1990 Goldwing »

I finally got out and removed the timing belt cover, Denverwinger mentioned putting the crank shaft 60 degrees off of top dead center. I'm not seeing the exact points he is talking about. I have some pictures of what it looks like, I could probably guess but I would rather be sure. The first picture is the center or crank shaft, second is the left side that was damaged and the third is the right side.
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by DenverWinger »

The three timing marks are circled, should say "T1", "T2" and "T3" and the timing mark on the case they are supposed to align to is also circled.

Line up the arrow I drew on the pulley so it lines up with the circled arrow mark on the case. That's midway between T1 and T2 (I think, hard to see in picture).

Then you can safely rotate the cam.


There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary numbers, and those that don't. :lol:

♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:
~Mark
Mike D 1990 Goldwing
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Mike D 1990 Goldwing »

Thank you, that makes it easier to understand.
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by DenverWinger »

Once you have the camshaft where it needs to be - timing marks lined up - then you can safely rotate the crankshaft to where it needs to be. then install the belt.
see this link.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9774
There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary numbers, and those that don't. :lol:

♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:
~Mark
Mike D 1990 Goldwing
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Mike D 1990 Goldwing »

Thanks again for the easier to follow instructions. I was going through the timing belt instructions, and I realized the mark on the left side is on the casing that is broken off, if I can get it level with the mark on the other side will that be close enough or is there a better way to set it without the mark that is on a piece of the side cover that is laying on the floor?
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by Mike D 1990 Goldwing »

I think I have it ready to check compression, I don't know if I am correct but when I was turning the left cam to replace the belt, I only turned it a short amount and it sprang to the spot I was going to put it for replacing the belt. I'm wondering if I can turn the motor enough with a socket on the crank shaft bolt because the left belt pullet is bent enough that I don't think the belt will stay on especially if I use the starter to turn the motor. I don't have a compression tester so I'm going to have to beg, borrow or steal one. I'm wondering if I can straighten the bent pulley enough to keep the belt on??
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DenverWinger
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Re: Accident looked like minor damage

Post by DenverWinger »

That cam pulley is bent enough I wouldn't even try to do a compression test with it using the starter.

You can do a simple compression test with just a ratchet on the crankshaft. If the timing belt slips off that bent pulley while you are turning the crankshaft with a wrench no harm done, just line things up again (put crank in between the nearest timing marks, not necessarily your yellow mark), with crank in that position then line up timing mark on the cam, then you can rotate the crank to T1 and put the belt back on..

Take out all the right side sparkplugs and leave the left side plugs in to not confuse results.

You are going to use your ratchet on the crankshaft and turn the engine in the direction of the arrow on the crankshaft pulley two full revolutions. if the valves are OK you should feel building resistance to turning the ratchet (not a sudden resistance like internal parts hit each other) three times in the two complete revolutions. This "building" resistance would be pistons compressing air. If there are not three times you can feel this compression in your wrench in two complete crankshaft revs there may be a bent valve.

You could repeat the test with only the right side sparkplugs in (this is the undamaged side) to see what it should feel like turning with wrench. You will feel three times in two full revs pistons compressing air.

If this test seems encouraging you could take a hammer to the bent pulley and see if you can straighten it enough to do a real compression test with the starter. The pulley may break while you are trying to straighten it, but it is toast anyway and will need to be replaced.

If we get this far most auto parts stores have a "loaner" compression tester, they may want a refundable deposit though.


There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary numbers, and those that don't. :lol:

♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:
~Mark
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