Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th


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reddeth
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Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »



Hello all!

I do not believe I am experiencing the worn out shifter fork issue. My understanding of those symptoms seems different than what I'm experiencing. The bike parked on an incline in neutral - pointed up or down - results in no discernible noise change, and gears 1-3 feel solid and crisp with no worrying noise or issues.

However going up into 4th and then 5th results in a heavy grinding, I can feel vibrating resistance through my foot via the shift lever. It feels very much like the grinding of gears in a car when the synchronizer rings are worn out/not present. If I get the 4th gear shift juuuuust right with the RPM it feels equally smooth as 1-3. Does the bike even have synchro rings that can wear out?

To attempt a remedy, I have installed a shift brace, changed the oil, bled the hydraulics multiple times, tried altering my shifting habits, different shoes, etc, all similar results.

I did rebuild the master and slave cylinder while rebuilding the overall bike, but did not pull the clutch cover. I can't imagine the clutch is worn out with under 70k miles, but the slave cylinder was leaking and crusty as could be. Could the clutch itself be damaged or possibly worn out?

Apologies if I'm missing anything, the bike rides and runs so beautifully aside from this, but it's making me super nervous to plan any bigger trips than around town and I'm hoping y'all will have some suggestions. Thank you in advance!!!


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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by WingAdmin »

There are no synchros to wear out.

It sounds like the clutch is not completely disengaging. That could be from a number of things. Swollen clutch line, air needing to be bled out, thick handlegrips preventing the full travel of the clutch lever, master or slave cylinder in need of a rebuild, or yes, a worn out clutch, where the clutch plates are worn to the rivets, and the rivets are causing it to drag even when disengaged.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by blupupher »

Lazy shifting?
These gears require force to get in properly.
I heard someone mention this gearbox is more like a tractor than a sports car.

When I first got my bike, I was having issues primarily with 4th gear (a lot of ghost shifts from 3-4, a little grinding from 3-4 and 4-5, and a few issues from 5-4).
I have found that being more aggressive and purposeful with shifting has resolved the issues for the most part.
I also "preload" the shifter on upshifts (mild pressure up on the shifter before pulling in the clutch) along with the firm clutch/shift reduces issues as well.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »

WingAdmin wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:17 pm There are no synchros to wear out.

It sounds like the clutch is not completely disengaging. That could be from a number of things. Swollen clutch line, air needing to be bled out, thick handlegrips preventing the full travel of the clutch lever, master or slave cylinder in need of a rebuild, or yes, a worn out clutch, where the clutch plates are worn to the rivets, and the rivets are causing it to drag even when disengaged.
Good to know about the bike not having synchros, thank you!

While working on the bike overall I did rebuild the master and slave cylinders, I feel confident enough that I can at least not make that the top item on the list. I've ordered a new stainless clutch line, which will also give me a chance to bleed the lines again. Beyond that, I can't imagine I'll be able to really inspect the clutch itself without pulling it out of the bike, right? I'll see how much it changes/improves with the clutch line and then go from there. It should be getting here tomorrow. Thank you!
blupupher wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:43 am Lazy shifting?
These gears require force to get in properly.
I heard someone mention this gearbox is more like a tractor than a sports car.

When I first got my bike, I was having issues primarily with 4th gear (a lot of ghost shifts from 3-4, a little grinding from 3-4 and 4-5, and a few issues from 5-4).
I have found that being more aggressive and purposeful with shifting has resolved the issues for the most part.
I also "preload" the shifter on upshifts (mild pressure up on the shifter before pulling in the clutch) along with the firm clutch/shift reduces issues as well.
Yeah when I first got the bike this was my feeling too, it must just be my shifting "behaviors". I'm by no means anything close to an expert rider, but I feel like I've varied up my shifting habits enough that it's at least not solely down to that. Higher gear shifts are better when I can match the revs properly, but barring that I've tried preloading the shifter on upshifts, I've tried letting the bike come down to near idle, wait till it decelerates, accelerates, shift fast, shift slow, shift hard, and I'm still getting more gear grinding than I think would be expected. I'll definitely try and pay attention to it though.

Thank you both for the advice! I'll give the new clutch line a try and see how much that changes things up!
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by the_big_h »

No rivets on any motorcycle clutch plate that I've ever seen, they're all bonded linings.
But I agree, sounds like clutch dragging - especially because you say matching RPM's makes a difference. With the clutch disengaged, engine RPM should have no effect on shifting.
Another clue to clutch dragging is if the bike pulls ahead a bit when you shift into first at a standstill. A clunk is normal, any pulling is not. For example, I find reverse a nuisance to use, so I frequently push back into a parking spot with bike in first gear, just clutch pulled in. If there was any pulling, it would be really difficult to push it back.

It's hard to tell when bleeding the clutch if you got all the air out, since clutch action is "squishy" anyways. (Not like brakes).

Another clue to insufficient bleeding is if the clutch starts engaging/bike starts to pull ahead when you release the clutch lever even only a little bit. To me, normal is when it starts engaging/pulling when the lever is about halfway out. I can leave fingers 3 & 4 wrapped on the grip, and operate clutch with fingers 1 & 2 (learned from riding trials). Fingers 3 & 4 block the clutch lever from getting fully to the grip, but shifting/stopping/pulling away is normal.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by Swagonmaster »

Sequential transmissions can be shifted without the clutch if you are gentle with it. I had to use that feature one day about 40 years ago when the clutch cable on my CB750 broke right after I started off leaving work one day. I had to drive all the way home without a clutch, you should have seen me making circles while waiting for a light to change since you can only start the bike with the clutch pulled! Anyway, if you back off of the throttle like you were going to shift normally and shift before the bike starts to decelerate, sort of nutral power, and make a quick firm shift it will go right in. If the shift to 2nd and 3rd are smooth and the final two are not it is likely that the problem is in the transmission, if all of them are smooth it's more likely to be clutch related.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by WingAdmin »

the_big_h wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:50 am No rivets on any motorcycle clutch plate that I've ever seen, they're all bonded linings.
When the clutch discs in the bike clutch wear out, the bits of lining tend to come off and jam up the discs, causing the clutch to drag. Typically when this happens the clutch pack will come out with a bunch of bits and pieces of clutch lining along with it.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Plate "B" has brass rivets.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions, very much appreciated.

I got the new hydraulic line in after some delays and headaches with Amazon. Swapped it out and bled everything. Clutch feels solid and seems to have improved the higher gear shifts quite a bit! I'll probably try bleeding it again just to be sure I got all the air out, but it's felt solid so far.

Unfortunately while on the test ride from replacing the line, the fuel pump died lol. Verified I was getting voltage for the 2 sec prime when you turn the key on, and that I couldn't get the pump turning even if I hard wired 12v to it. So new NAPA fuel pump ordered and should have it replaced this week. Just about got this bike "done"
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »

Howdy y'all! Bumping this thread with some updates.

While I think the new clutch line helped it definitely did not resolve everything. Feeling like I was running out of options I went ahead and cracked open the clutch cover and removed the clutch. It's filthy! The dirt left behind alone is enough to convince me it was good to open up and get cleaned out. Look at all the gunk in the basket.




I'm not an expert at "reading" clutches but it feels like that's a lot of gunk, some burning, and it doesn't seem like there's much "meat" between the plates. I ordered a new clutch friction and steel set from Barnett.

Unfortunately in the process I, being an absolute fool, thought I knew better than everyone else and tried to use the studs sticking up through the clutch basket (that the guide plate bolts to) as standoffs to attach a bar to counteract the unscrewing of the main nut. I'm an idiot, I fully admit it:


Ordered a used clutch assembly off an 88 from eBay to replace the parts I broke. And just went ahead and bought the special tool from the UK to hold the piece. $45 and piece of mind I won't break the next one is worth it.

Anyways, hoping this will be the thing that finally gets the bike feeling good. Really hoping there's not any other damage inside the transmission I can't get to. I don't feel like even imagining pulling the motor and splitting it to try and repair the transmission.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by Gordcode4 »

I’m having similar shifting issues and had done the slave master and beaded lines with some improvement. Now looking at your clutch it might be time to pull mine. How much of a PIA was it to get it out?
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »

Gordcode4 wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:45 am I’m having similar shifting issues and had done the slave master and beaded lines with some improvement. Now looking at your clutch it might be time to pull mine. How much of a PIA was it to get it out?
It wasn't too bad at all, had it out over the course of a couple hours, probably an hour of actually wrenching on it. I referenced this thread: https://www.goldwingfacts.com/threads/c ... 00.344127/ but it was pretty self explanatory.

Disconnect battery, remove alternator, remove the slave cylinder, 14 bolts holding the cover on, 7 short/7 long. In my case the gasket was pretty well fused to both parts so I had to fiddle with it for a while to get it apart. From here you should be able to at least get a rough inspection of the clutch and determine if you want to move forward or not. If the clutch looks good it should be new gasket and reassemble.

Getting the clutch basket out is where I made my mistake. There's a large 32mm nut holding it to the output shaft of the motor with a metal locking tab, un-bend the tab and grab your socket, but trying to loosen the nut also spins the motor. Others recommend putting the bike in 1st gear and whack the breaker bar with a 2x4, the sudden shock will loosen the nut. For whatever reason I was having zero luck with that method; my theoretical solution was to drill 2 holes in an aluminum bar to screw into the studs sticking out of the carrier and use it to hold the carrier, which worked great up until I put any pressure on the breaker bar and it snapped the aluminum studs right off. It's obvious now, of course, but I didn't think it through at the time that those studs do not carry any real "force" and they are not very strong, especially in the sort of sideways/twisting motion I was putting on them. Anyways, there *is* a tool to get the clutch basket out: EBC CT068SP https://www.ebay.com/itm/193101125540 - I bought one to aid in reassembly, but have not received it yet. If I had the proper tools/parts ahead of time and didn't outright ruin the basket I am confident I could have had it back together/done the next day.

If you also need to remove the larger "carrier" there is a larger nut holding it on and you'll run into the same "holding" problem. There is a company in the UK that makes a tool similar to the original Honda tool the factory manual specifies, but it's expensive: https://www.ebay.com/itm/253626223396 I opted not to pull mine, there was not significant wear on it once I got it cleaned up.

I would recommend ordering the clutch cover gasket if nothing else ahead of time, that way if you open the case and inspect and your clutch is in good shape you can put it back together right there and not wait on parts. Also make sure you have a good set of flashlights and mirrors to see things. There's a decent amount of room to do the job at the back of the bike, but it's really difficult to "see" what's happening.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »

As a quick update I made a small discovery I wish I would have found sooner. In the clutch master cylinder lever, there is a small brass slug that pushes on a rod that actuates the master cylinder.

In my case the brass slug had worn down about 1/8" or so, so a not-insignificant chunk of the travel of the lever wasn't doing anything. Unfortunately I realized this *after* the clutch had been pulled, so I can't verify if it was the entirety of my problem or not. I still suspect my clutch needs replacing at this point, but perhaps this would have been something that helped. I had rebuilt the master cylinder, but didn't realize the brass lug in there was a serviceable item.

Here's the "rebuild" kit I used for anyone else's information: https://www.ebay.com/itm/143169384205


Beyond that, as an update to my own clutch issues, my Barnett clutch components finally shipped and should be here next week. In the mean time I set about disassembling the new-old clutch basket I got off eBay. I tried using a piece of schedule-40 PVC to compress the clutch spring but wasn't having much luck. So, 3d printing to the rescue again:


3d printed a spacer to fit into the clutch basket and compress the spring. It worked surprisingly well! Although the print itself did get significantly more deformed by the vice than I would have liked:


However it did work! I managed to get the basket apart. For the re-assembly I have re-printed the part at a significantly higher infill, it's not _quite_ solid plastic, but it's pretty close at 80% infill and I think it will have no issues re-assembling once the rest of the parts get here.

Otherwise the old basket is disassembled, the gasket surfaces are cleaned, all I'm doing now is waiting on parts lol.


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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by WingAdmin »

You're lucky that you caught the wear on that brass bushing when you did. If you let it go much longer, it will wear through the bushing entirely, then the rod will push into the soft metal of the lever itself, and will destroy the lever. That bushing is definitely a wear item.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »

That's good to know! The rod and bushing had corroded together on mine, and the rebuild kit for the cylinder itself didn't include the bushing, so I didn't think about it even being a serviceable item. Glad I caught it as well. I added a little grease to hopefully help slow down wear, I'll add it to the list of items to periodically check on/service. Thank you, sir!
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by WingAdmin »

reddeth wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:01 am That's good to know! The rod and bushing had corroded together on mine, and the rebuild kit for the cylinder itself didn't include the bushing, so I didn't think about it even being a serviceable item. Glad I caught it as well. I added a little grease to hopefully help slow down wear, I'll add it to the list of items to periodically check on/service. Thank you, sir!
Grease in that area will catch a lot of dirt which can cause wear. I use dry graphite lubricant, which you spray on like paint, and it dries leaving no sticky residue. It's an excellent lubricant.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »

The clutch friction plates showed up, soaked in oil, and have been reassembled into the clutch pack! Compared to the original clutch pack I pulled out, it's a night/day difference!


The bike is buttoned up and is a HUGE difference. I haven't had time to go out for a long/higher speed test ride, but my ride around the neighborhood was a world better!

For future readers, if you encounter anything like the issues I was facing, start by checking the brass lug in your clutch lever. I genuinely think that loss of travel was causing the clutch to not fully disengage! However, barring that, it really does seem like the clutch itself was my primary issue. Thank you again to everyone on the site for all the info! I can finally call the bike "good" lol.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by WingAdmin »

That's great news, glad to hear it's fixed and working!


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