Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th


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reddeth
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2022 Z650

Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »



Hello all!

I do not believe I am experiencing the worn out shifter fork issue. My understanding of those symptoms seems different than what I'm experiencing. The bike parked on an incline in neutral - pointed up or down - results in no discernible noise change, and gears 1-3 feel solid and crisp with no worrying noise or issues.

However going up into 4th and then 5th results in a heavy grinding, I can feel vibrating resistance through my foot via the shift lever. It feels very much like the grinding of gears in a car when the synchronizer rings are worn out/not present. If I get the 4th gear shift juuuuust right with the RPM it feels equally smooth as 1-3. Does the bike even have synchro rings that can wear out?

To attempt a remedy, I have installed a shift brace, changed the oil, bled the hydraulics multiple times, tried altering my shifting habits, different shoes, etc, all similar results.

I did rebuild the master and slave cylinder while rebuilding the overall bike, but did not pull the clutch cover. I can't imagine the clutch is worn out with under 70k miles, but the slave cylinder was leaking and crusty as could be. Could the clutch itself be damaged or possibly worn out?

Apologies if I'm missing anything, the bike rides and runs so beautifully aside from this, but it's making me super nervous to plan any bigger trips than around town and I'm hoping y'all will have some suggestions. Thank you in advance!!!


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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by WingAdmin »

There are no synchros to wear out.

It sounds like the clutch is not completely disengaging. That could be from a number of things. Swollen clutch line, air needing to be bled out, thick handlegrips preventing the full travel of the clutch lever, master or slave cylinder in need of a rebuild, or yes, a worn out clutch, where the clutch plates are worn to the rivets, and the rivets are causing it to drag even when disengaged.
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blupupher
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by blupupher »

Lazy shifting?
These gears require force to get in properly.
I heard someone mention this gearbox is more like a tractor than a sports car.

When I first got my bike, I was having issues primarily with 4th gear (a lot of ghost shifts from 3-4, a little grinding from 3-4 and 4-5, and a few issues from 5-4).
I have found that being more aggressive and purposeful with shifting has resolved the issues for the most part.
I also "preload" the shifter on upshifts (mild pressure up on the shifter before pulling in the clutch) along with the firm clutch/shift reduces issues as well.
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reddeth
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »

WingAdmin wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:17 pm There are no synchros to wear out.

It sounds like the clutch is not completely disengaging. That could be from a number of things. Swollen clutch line, air needing to be bled out, thick handlegrips preventing the full travel of the clutch lever, master or slave cylinder in need of a rebuild, or yes, a worn out clutch, where the clutch plates are worn to the rivets, and the rivets are causing it to drag even when disengaged.
Good to know about the bike not having synchros, thank you!

While working on the bike overall I did rebuild the master and slave cylinders, I feel confident enough that I can at least not make that the top item on the list. I've ordered a new stainless clutch line, which will also give me a chance to bleed the lines again. Beyond that, I can't imagine I'll be able to really inspect the clutch itself without pulling it out of the bike, right? I'll see how much it changes/improves with the clutch line and then go from there. It should be getting here tomorrow. Thank you!
blupupher wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:43 am Lazy shifting?
These gears require force to get in properly.
I heard someone mention this gearbox is more like a tractor than a sports car.

When I first got my bike, I was having issues primarily with 4th gear (a lot of ghost shifts from 3-4, a little grinding from 3-4 and 4-5, and a few issues from 5-4).
I have found that being more aggressive and purposeful with shifting has resolved the issues for the most part.
I also "preload" the shifter on upshifts (mild pressure up on the shifter before pulling in the clutch) along with the firm clutch/shift reduces issues as well.
Yeah when I first got the bike this was my feeling too, it must just be my shifting "behaviors". I'm by no means anything close to an expert rider, but I feel like I've varied up my shifting habits enough that it's at least not solely down to that. Higher gear shifts are better when I can match the revs properly, but barring that I've tried preloading the shifter on upshifts, I've tried letting the bike come down to near idle, wait till it decelerates, accelerates, shift fast, shift slow, shift hard, and I'm still getting more gear grinding than I think would be expected. I'll definitely try and pay attention to it though.

Thank you both for the advice! I'll give the new clutch line a try and see how much that changes things up!
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by the_big_h »

No rivets on any motorcycle clutch plate that I've ever seen, they're all bonded linings.
But I agree, sounds like clutch dragging - especially because you say matching RPM's makes a difference. With the clutch disengaged, engine RPM should have no effect on shifting.
Another clue to clutch dragging is if the bike pulls ahead a bit when you shift into first at a standstill. A clunk is normal, any pulling is not. For example, I find reverse a nuisance to use, so I frequently push back into a parking spot with bike in first gear, just clutch pulled in. If there was any pulling, it would be really difficult to push it back.

It's hard to tell when bleeding the clutch if you got all the air out, since clutch action is "squishy" anyways. (Not like brakes).

Another clue to insufficient bleeding is if the clutch starts engaging/bike starts to pull ahead when you release the clutch lever even only a little bit. To me, normal is when it starts engaging/pulling when the lever is about halfway out. I can leave fingers 3 & 4 wrapped on the grip, and operate clutch with fingers 1 & 2 (learned from riding trials). Fingers 3 & 4 block the clutch lever from getting fully to the grip, but shifting/stopping/pulling away is normal.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by Swagonmaster »

Sequential transmissions can be shifted without the clutch if you are gentle with it. I had to use that feature one day about 40 years ago when the clutch cable on my CB750 broke right after I started off leaving work one day. I had to drive all the way home without a clutch, you should have seen me making circles while waiting for a light to change since you can only start the bike with the clutch pulled! Anyway, if you back off of the throttle like you were going to shift normally and shift before the bike starts to decelerate, sort of nutral power, and make a quick firm shift it will go right in. If the shift to 2nd and 3rd are smooth and the final two are not it is likely that the problem is in the transmission, if all of them are smooth it's more likely to be clutch related.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by WingAdmin »

the_big_h wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:50 am No rivets on any motorcycle clutch plate that I've ever seen, they're all bonded linings.
When the clutch discs in the bike clutch wear out, the bits of lining tend to come off and jam up the discs, causing the clutch to drag. Typically when this happens the clutch pack will come out with a bunch of bits and pieces of clutch lining along with it.
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Plate "B" has brass rivets.
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reddeth
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Re: Rough/grinding shifts into 4th and 5th

Post by reddeth »

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions, very much appreciated.

I got the new hydraulic line in after some delays and headaches with Amazon. Swapped it out and bled everything. Clutch feels solid and seems to have improved the higher gear shifts quite a bit! I'll probably try bleeding it again just to be sure I got all the air out, but it's felt solid so far.

Unfortunately while on the test ride from replacing the line, the fuel pump died lol. Verified I was getting voltage for the 2 sec prime when you turn the key on, and that I couldn't get the pump turning even if I hard wired 12v to it. So new NAPA fuel pump ordered and should have it replaced this week. Just about got this bike "done"


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