Heated seats/grips update, still baffling

[singring]

I have put many many hours into diagnosising my 2006 GL1800's heating fault, to no avail. There is no voltage going to any of the heat components( seats or grips). I detected continuity issues with both grips, so I replaced them with Honda OEM's. I now have continuity throughout all three circuits, front seat, rear seat, and both grips, as checked using Honda's method of testing from heater relay ( yellow/red wire connector) to HCU's connector pins #3, #5, and #7. I have switched seat and HCU unit with a friend's 2006 GL1800 whose heat is working fine. My seat heats up on his bike, but his seat does not heat up on my bike. My HCU unit works fine on his bike, but his HCU does not resolve the heating issue on my bike. So all components are functional on my bike, the seats, the grips, the HCU unit. I have switched out the 20A heater relay with the 20A horn relay...still no joy. When engine is running, and all heat controllers are on any setting, except OFF, I get 13 volts across fusebox terminals of fuse #11 (5amp), which feeds system voltage to the HCU and the heater relay on the red/black circuit. I get 13 volts from HCU back to the heater relay on the black/white circuit. At this point, now the heater relay is energized, and is suppose to allow voltage from fuse #29 (20 amp) to flow to the seat heater elements. This is where I am getting confused:
when I test for voltage across fusebox terminals of fuse #29, I get nothing, yet when I insert the 20 amp fuse into #29's fusebox terminals I get 13 volts reading at the heater relay on the red/white circuit. So, I am getting voltage from the relay to fuse #29. Am I correct in assuming that no voltage is flowing to the seat/grip components from fuse #29? I do not have a schematic that shows the wiring pattern in/out of fuse #29, so I am lost from here. If anyone can supply me with a schematic that show this, I may get this monster beat. Another option that I am going to try, is to swap out the front dash panel, with the heat controllers, for my friend's panel, and eliminate the controllers from the equation....any help is appreciated. thanks

[WingAdmin]

Here are the circuits you're looking for - this is from a 2008, as I don't have a 2006 manual, but they *should* be the same.

Heater Circuit

Controller Circuit

It could be the pink wire coming from the ECM that enables the heater control unit - if the ECM doesn't tell the heater control unit to come on, it won't come on.

I'll post the diagnostic procedures in a moment.

[WingAdmin]

SYSTEM TROUBLESHOOTING
All seat and grip heaters do not function

1. Remove the seat but do not disconnect the seat heater connector (page 3-8 of Service Manual). Remove the green connector block from the relay box (page 21-23 of Service Manual).

Exchange the HEATER relay with a known-good one and check the system.
Remove the left saddlebag (page 3-31 of Service Manual).
Turn the ignition switch to OFF and disconnect the heater control unit connector.

2. Check for continuity between the Green wire terminals and ground.
There should be continuity.
• If there is continuity, GO TO STEP 3.
• If there is no continuity, repair an open circuit in the green wires between the heater control unit and ground terminal.

3. Turn the ignition switch to ON.
Measure the voltage between the Red/black wire terminal (+) and ground (–).
There should be battery voltage.
• If there is battery voltage, GO TO STEP 4.
• If there is no voltage, check the following:
– blown No. 11 HEATER fuse 2
– open circuit in the Red/black wire between the heater control unit and fuse box.

4. Measure the voltage between the Black/white wire terminal (+) and ground (–).
There should be battery voltage.
• If there is battery voltage, GO TO STEP 5.
• If there is no voltage, check the following:
– faulty HEATER relay (page 21-23 of Service Manual).
– open circuit in the Black/white wire between the heater control unit and relay box.
– open circuit in the Red/black wire between the relay box and fuse box.

5. Turn the ignition switch to OFF.
Measure the thermistor resistances between the following terminals.
CONNECTION:
Front thermistor 1: Blue/white – Green/black
Front thermistor 2: Blue/green – Green/black
Rear thermistor 1: Blue/red – Green/black
Rear thermistor 2: Black/yellow – Green/black
The thermistor resistance varies with the temperature of the seat.
Temperature Resistance
–5°C 187 – 215 kΩ
0°C 146 – 166 kΩ
5°C 114 – 129 kΩ
10°C 90 – 101 kΩ
15°C 72 – 80 kΩ
20°C 58 – 64 kΩ
25°C 46 – 51 kΩ
30°C 38 – 41 kΩ
• If the any thermistor resistance is out of specifications, GO TO STEP 6.
• If all thermistor resistances are within the specifications, GO TO STEP 7.

6. Measure the thermistor resistances at the seat heater connector (page 17-10).
• If the any thermistor resistance is out of specifications, replace the seat.
• If all thermistor resistances are within the specifications, check the wire harness for open or short circuit between the heater control unit connector and seat heater connector.

7. Remove the two screws and remove the relay box.

8. Remove the green relay block from the relay box and remove the HEATER relay from the relay block.

9. Connect the Yellow/red and Red/white wire terminals of the HEATER relay connector with a jumper wire.

10.Turn the ignition switch to ON.
Measure the voltage between the following terminals (+) and ground (–).
CONNECTION:
Front seat heater: White/black (+) – ground (–)
Rear seat heater: Red/white (+) – ground (–)
Grip heater: White/green (+) – ground (–)
There should be battery voltage.
• If there is no voltage, GO TO STEP 11.
• If there is battery voltage, check the HEATER relay (page 21-76 of Service Manual).
If the relay is OK, GO TO STEP 12.

11.Turn the ignition switch to OFF and check the following:
– seat heater (page 17-9)
– grip heater (page 17-11)
• If the heater is faulty, replace the seat or seat back.
• If the heater is OK, check the Yellow/red wire for open circuit between the heater and relay box.

12.Turn the ignition switch to OFF.
Disconnect the engine control module (ECM) connector A (black).
Check the Pink wire for continuity between the heater control unit and ECM.
There should be continuity.
• If there is continuity, GO TO STEP 13.
• If there is no continuity, repair open circuit in the Pink wire.

13.Connect the all connectors.
Replace the heater control unit with a new known good one and recheck.
• If the heaters function properly, replace the original heater control unit.
• If the heaters do not function, replace the ECM with a new one and recheck.

[thrasherg]

Wow, all that just for a warm bum and hands!!

Gary

[singring]

WingAdmin....thank you, thank you, thank you...your concise, yet detailed, assistance won the day for me. Instead of jumping around here and there, and getting nowhere, I followed your excellent flow-chart approach and found the fault. The problem was the female (bike side) seat connector. I had tested for continuity across that connector, but I missed the thermistor leads, and that is exactly where the issue was. One of the front seat thermistors leads, and one of the rear seat thermistors leads were not making solid connections with the pins of the male seat plug. I had the bike out today in 8 deg C temps, and the grips and seats heater worked great. Again many thanks. I printed off your instructions and will keep them for future reference. I have tried some of the other forums, and I have received plenty of assistance, but your approach nailed it. There are a lot of riders out there that have given up trying to resolve the same issues I had, and your method would make a lot of people happy.

[singring]

I forgot to mention in my previous reply how I made the fix on that female seat connector. Well, since all the pin receivers were stretched out, I made the repair on the male seat connector. A little soldering flux on each pin, then adding a tiny line of solder to each pin beefed them up enough so that every wire has excellent continuiity when the plugs are connected. It is a little tougher to make the plugs connect together with a click, but it works. Someday I will price out a replacement female connector, and wire it in, then remove the solder from the male pins.

[WingAdmin]

I forgot to mention in my previous reply how I made the fix on that female seat connector. Well, since all the pin receivers were stretched out, I made the repair on the male seat connector. A little soldering flux on each pin, then adding a tiny line of solder to each pin beefed them up enough so that every wire has excellent continuiity when the plugs are connected. It is a little tougher to make the plugs connect together with a click, but it works. Someday I will price out a replacement female connector, and wire it in, then remove the solder from the male pins.

I'm glad to hear that you've once again got a warm butt.

Have a look at this: http://cyclemax.com/inc/sdetail/36020

I'm pretty sure the pins used in those connectors are the same as are used in the connectors you're dealing with. If so, you could buy that kit, use the pins to replace your affected pins, and the problem would be fixed. I'd recommend using a proper pin extraction tool to get them out, rather than attempting to do it with a screwdriver, which will usually massacre the pins.

[bbianco]

I have followed your procedure and all things test OK but the heater relay does not energize. Iam down to the heater control module or the ECM as the culprit. What I,d like to know is if anyone knows how the ECM turns on the heater control module? In most computer controlled systems, the ECM would simply ground the terminal (pink wire terminal 10) and that would be the "on" signal for the heater control module to begin regulating the seats etc. Being out of warranty, an ECM replacement is cost prohibitive and I do not have access to a "known good" ECM to try. I,m also interested in knowing what criteria the ECM uses to turn the heater control module on? I would assume it is RPM related or voltage related, switching off the heating system if alternator output decreases below a predetermined point or if the alternator fails to produce a signal from the "L" terminal. That is the way functions like this are often handled in the automotive community. Can anyone shed any light on these issues.?

[WingAdmin]

I have followed your procedure and all things test OK but the heater relay does not energize. Iam down to the heater control module or the ECM as the culprit. What I,d like to know is if anyone knows how the ECM turns on the heater control module? In most computer controlled systems, the ECM would simply ground the terminal (pink wire terminal 10) and that would be the "on" signal for the heater control module to begin regulating the seats etc. Being out of warranty, an ECM replacement is cost prohibitive and I do not have access to a "known good" ECM to try. I,m also interested in knowing what criteria the ECM uses to turn the heater control module on? I would assume it is RPM related or voltage related, switching off the heating system if alternator output decreases below a predetermined point or if the alternator fails to produce a signal from the "L" terminal. That is the way functions like this are often handled in the automotive community. Can anyone shed any light on these issues.?

Unfortunately, not. There's no published information on how it works, what voltage should be on that wire to "enable" the heater control unit, or what parameters the ECU uses to decide whether or not to enable the heater control unit. Perhaps someone with an operational unit could measure that pink wire during operation to determine just what is going on.

[singring]

I did test that pink wire from the ECM for voltage, when I was trying to find the fault in my bike's system. With the engine running, it was a very low voltage of about 1.5 volts, as memory serves me. I didn't think this finding was significant, as I presumed that the voltage is low because it is just a signal to engage the Heat Control Unit. Not only did my heating system have both grips unservicable, but once they were replaced, and continuity determined, another fault was the seat electrical connection. When that was repaired, the issue was resolved. I would suggest that you exchange your HCU unit with a buddy's GL1800 with a functioning heating system. I had to do that, and it eliminated the HCU as the culprit. Don't give up, because having the heated seats and grips is definately worth the time and effort.

[yechave]

I greatly appreciate all that info.

Our 06 just started having intermittent power to the grips and seat. Only 23k on the bike which is not used much. I just called Honda and found out the warranty expires first week of August. Yikes, I was going to put this off until Oct. Looks like it could have been an expensive repair.

I am hoping all this information helps the diagnosis along.

Thanks again!

[Archiea]

I might be wrong about this, but in honda's
Seat and grip heating system on step 4 where
It says check for voltage at terminal 2 of heater
Control unit and terminal 3 of relay black/white
with key on I think it would be
A ground - it is on other side of relay coil
or heater relay that feeds + to seats and
grips
I'm I wrong ??
Archiea

[jinx]

I may be wrong but at step 4 you have not turned on the heat yet so you wound have 12v at the test point until
you turn on the heat.

[Archiea]

Well I'm the one that is wrong Sorry Honda .
I looked again about troubleshooting
Heated grips and seats for 2008 gl1800
And in step 1 they say turn ignition off and
disconnect Hcu. Then in step 3 turn on ignition
On, so in step 4 the black/white would be
Hot, if heater relay is good and pluged in
Because power from fuse 11+ would feed
Through heater relay coil
I for got that the Hcu is not connected !
Sorry my Bad
Archiea

[Goldwingthing]

Hello All,

First of all a big thanks to all that post in this forum, the info has been great!

With regard to the seat problem, I had the same issue on my 09'. I bought the bike second hand, I think the previous owner had a problem with the heated seats/grips and decided to disconnect it which caused me a lot of work. Here is what I found and how I fixed it:

Seat plug was disconnected, backrest plug was disconnected...reconnected but the system still didn't work. I then tested the whole system including the pink wire continuity...all was fine electrically...no open circuits, no shorts....still not working. I then used my father's 2008 Goldwing (whose heated seats worked) and swapped every component onto his bike, all my components worked on his system. Its a BIG job to take two bikes apart to get the the ECU! Even though I tested the thermisters and heater elements etc, it was worth it. It was now obvious that the problem was in the wiring harness...but where?

I finally found it after 3 days. It was the connector to the Heater Control Unit. One or more of the pins were not making contact with the connector. You can get fooled into thinking the connection is tight but its due to the rubber seal in the plug which makes it feel like the pins are making contact. I also was stumped because the whole system would test out ok when I put the test lead into the individual holes of the connector.

I am trying to find a new connector to install but its a little hard to find. Since you cannot remove the wires and terminals from the connector to "fatten them out", I removed the orange piece from the bottom of the connector. Using a piece of 8 gauge multi strand wire cut at about 3/4-1 inch long, took 1 strand of copper wire and folded it in half and put it between the two hole of each terminal. This tightened the hole so that the pins from the module could make contact again.

No problems since then.

[Goldwingthing]

Trouble shoot the system as per the previous post, its right out of the service manual. In my case all the heaters, thermisters and wiring were ok. I did find the resistance of the controls a little out of spec, mine were 3K ohm where the book specified 5 K ohm. This does not pose a problem in the functionality of the system.

If your thermisters and heater elements are in tact, IE not open, then the next place to look is at the connector for the Heater Control Module behind the left saddle bag. The connecter will feel tight but that is because of the rubber seal, not the pins making contact. When I removed the seal, the connection where as loose as a $3 lady of the evening!

I had removed the relay bank from under the seat and exposed the heater relay so that I could put a test light on the orange wire (switched side of the relay), turned on the system then proceeded to wiggle all the wires looking for breaks. It took a lot of wiggling but I could finally make the system work if I held and squeezed the connector a certain way.

It took a lot of searching but I found the 100% correct replacement connector here:

http://www.cycleterminal.com/jae-mx23a.html

It is the exact same connector they used when they built the harness. I bought two so that I had a spare just in case it all happens again. I would highly suggest to buy the crimping tool at the bottom of the page otherwise if not crimped properly, the pins won't go into the holes.

The dealer I went to told me I needed to replace the harness at $ 1300 for the harness and about 8 hours shop time at $100 per hour. This fix cost me $60 and is 100% factory.

Shame on Honda for that one!

[pgfireman]

Hi: new contributor to this forum, thanks to all of you for your guidance in the past - I have been reading for quite a while. My 2007 GL1800 heated seats and grips did not work when I bought the bike (used) , our local Honda dealer put about 2 hours of trying into repairing them to no avail. I bought Replacement grips for OEM wiring from Show Chrome http://wingstuff.com/products/31421-hea ... ccessories installed them with a little help from a friend in about two hours. The wiring just splices to the original, I soldered it and covered the joint with heat shrink. They work great and as all the threads have noted; now the circuit is complete again the seats also work fantastic too. For the reasonable cost ($100) they are a deal. They look good, are a little thicker, which I prefer and were relatively simple for a novice to install. When I removed the original grips it was easy to see that the whole heating circuit was destroyed beyond repair, something you have no way of knowing without taking the grip of first. Hope this helps, desperately looking forward to mother nature letting up this winter, I am planning a 5000k round trip to the Cabot Trail Nova Scotia and return through 'States this summer.

[WingAdmin]

Hi: new contributor to this forum, thanks to all of you for your guidance in the past - I have been reading for quite a while. My 2007 GL1800 heated seats and grips did not work when I bought the bike (used) , our local Honda dealer put about 2 hours of trying into repairing them to no avail. I bought Replacement grips for OEM wiring from Show Chrome http://wingstuff.com/products/31421-hea ... ccessories installed them with a little help from a friend in about two hours. The wiring just splices to the original, I soldered it and covered the joint with heat shrink. They work great and as all the threads have noted; now the circuit is complete again the seats also work fantastic too. For the reasonable cost ($100) they are a deal. They look good, are a little thicker, which I prefer and were relatively simple for a novice to install. When I removed the original grips it was easy to see that the whole heating circuit was destroyed beyond repair, something you have no way of knowing without taking the grip of first. Hope this helps, desperately looking forward to mother nature letting up this winter, I am planning a 5000k round trip to the Cabot Trail Nova Scotia and return through 'States this summer.

That will be a fantastic trip, I did it (in a car) many years ago. Be sure to take lots of pictures to share with us!

[pgfireman]

WIll do! Thanks. The last time I took a long distance trip of any substance (more than a day and 500k ) was many many years ago on my Moto Guzzi, south coast of England ( I lived there then) to France. This will be a little different without a back pack and tent hanging off the rear seat. I'm looking forward to the terrific storage options, just cant decide: my full face helmet, three quarter or both?

[cwolfer]

I too have a 2008 with no heat at the seats or the grips so I followed your troubleshooting directions to the point I did not get a voltage at the grip heater (white/green to ground), both the white/ black and the red/white (seat heaters)
had 12v. The grounds off the heater control unit connector were all good.

Time to take apart the grips I would guess.

[RFtech53]

Hi guys,

Well a baffling problem with my 2008 GL1800 with Audio/Comfort/Navi. It has about 12-13K miles on it. Always garaged, but I do have to take her down about a mile of gravel every time I ride so the bike is really dusty under the seat.

The other day on the way to work at 48°F on the interstate, I realized that the grips weren't heating. But the seat (at least under my butt) did. I've taken the shelter apart and started troubleshooting per Mother Honda.

The grip heaters are fine. I removed the rotary selector switches and took them to my work to check out. I work in an engineering lab which qualifies new parts for avionics radios, avionics radar, missiles, etc. We also do failure analysis. Easier for my old eyes to see things under our microscopes. The switches check out fine, as do the resistances to the socket.

I got home tonight to do some troubleshooting with the bike running to test voltages. I electrically plugged everything back together with the exception of the radio, headlight adjuster and GPS switches (stuff I don't need to check this out). Well as luck would have it ... the grips now heat up, as does my backrest. But the front and back butt heaters are stone cold. I tested the three heating elements in the seat ... all are fine at about 2.5 ohms (as were the grips).

Since the grips and seat back are heating up, the relay that drives everything has to be okay. The two heater fuses have been removed and ohm out good.

Experience tells me I'm looking at a bad connector or open wire somewhere. I hate that I might have to remove the left saddlebag to check out the heater control unit. But from you guys who have been through this, does that seem like the next obvious place to go?

I'm a FCC licensed radiotelephone technician, plus a Ham operator. But experience beats education in my book. So I'm hoping some of you that have been through this before might have some insight. I've printed out the schematics from above which should also be a big help.

I've sprayed every plug and socket I've had apart with CAIG DeOxit and mated them several times to clean off the pins.

Thoughts as to why the grips and seat back heat, but the two butt heaters don't? Or for that matter, why the grips didn't heat yesterday, and now they do?

Thanks in advance.

[nigelf]

first check would be the plug under the seat to see if the elements gave given up (broken)

be careful the seat back does not have any sensors so if the seat is not getting hot the back is turned on all the time. I have seen a small burn mark under the seat cover on mine where the wire got really hot!

I am still trying to find my fault similar to yours and did remove the left bag its a real pain! I need to test it tomorrow in the morning when its colder.

Good luck

Ps im the same trade as you Air avionics (ex RAF) and a ham G0JKN/W2

Regards
Nigel Fenton

[RFtech53]

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for the info. I spent about 8 hours yesterday going through all the heater elements in all the seats. And then checked the thermister elements as well. And followed the service manual for testing connectors and wires. All the elements check out in all the seats.

The rotary selector switches don't exactly check out, ohms wise, as the book describes. I don't have 6K ohms at the end of the travel as the manual calls out. But I do get increasing or decreasing resistance levels with each selector position, so I'm not worried about them being bad. Plus I'm going by a 2006 manual for my 2008, and they may have changed the resistor values.

I finally gave up and did that last awful step ... removing the left saddle bag. It's a royal pain for me as my bike has a lot of gravel dust under where I can't clean it. I have to drive about 1 mile of gravel from my house to get to pavement. So after 6+ years, it's a mess under al the plastic. But I did finally get it off following the service manual. I took my compressor and and air gun and blew off as much dust as I could from everywhere.

I finally found the heater control unit tucked away behind what I'm guessing are starter coils (I haven't looked in the manual, but they both have huge B+ or Ground connectors on them). No wonder I couldn't see the heater control unit until I removed the saddlebag.

Following the manual and checking the pins to the unit, it "appears" the unit simply isn't working right anymore. I still find it strange that my seat back heat's as do the grips, but my butt, the passenger butt, and the passenger backrest don't. But without being able to see a schematic of the internal workings of the heater control unit, I'm left with that unit being defective.

The book shows it down to "exchange the heater control unit with a known good one and test." Well for me, that means spending $76 to buy a new one. I looked around the web, and didn't find a lot of difference in prices. I'm a past BikeBandit customer, so I've got one coming. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. If that doesn't do it, I'm out of ideas and might (gulp) take it to the dealer.

I'll post to this forum when I get the new one in, and let you all know the outcome.

Robert
N0ZNJ
Sr. Engineering Technician / Rockwell Collins /Cedar Rapids

[RFtech53]

Well, I'm still waiting for my replacement heater module. But for fun, I took a quick x-ray of the unit. Not what I expected. There's a lot of active electronics in there. I though some of you might like a peek. It's not a great quality picture as I had to stitch 6 x-rays together. But you can definitely guesstimate that it's a two sided board with several power transistors (probably MOSfets), several IC's including a large quad flat pack, and lots of other small surface mount parts. All in all, I'm amazed it's only about $80. But it doesn't surprise me now that it could be causing some heaters to work and some to not.

[nigelf]

it would not take much to make a circuit to replace that. even an Arduino with the addition of power fets to handle the 12v heater circuits could easily be knocked up. may be a winter project !

Nigel