Fuel odor


Information and questions on GL1800 Goldwings (2001-2017)
peppilepew
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Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »



Before I go taking my entire 2012 apart does anyone have expertise to share about possible sources of fuel leak/odor? I have the tank out right now and have yet to find the source.


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M61A1MECH
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by M61A1MECH »

In the past have you been in the habit of filling the tank above the small vent hole in the filler neck?
That vent goes to a charcoal filled canister, gas can drain into that vent, if the canister has a lot of liquid gas in it you can get fuel odors around the bike.
Steve K
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

That makes sense. I'm into it now. Going any further will require removing the faring. I'm considering using regulated air to pressurise the system. If there are leaks, they will surely surface then. The dealer had the engine out installing new alternator drive gears. I have found multiple loose ends. I already located multiple loose hose clamps.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by MikeB »

peppilepew wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:49 pm ...The dealer had the engine out installing new alternator drive gears. I have found multiple loose ends. I already located multiple loose hose clamps.
You probably could have led with that bit of information.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by AZgl1800 »

peppilepew wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:49 pm The dealer had the engine out installing new alternator drive gears. I have found multiple loose ends. I already located multiple loose hose clamps.
what was the dealer's charge to do that?
~John

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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

Mike, I didn't want to draw focus off the issue. The full story is rather long.

This is my nightmare story. I have pics but will leave them out.

"I decided to address a few issues with my heavily customized 2012 Goldwing purchased new October 2013. It now has 44k on the clock and needs it's third air filter, 11th oil change and general go over. My friend Craig Walker solved a major self inflicted problem on a very short ride last October. I felt so bad for him on a subsequent foliage run. He froze coming back from the White Mountains. Those purchasing a new Goldwing these days should be aware that your warranty is only equivalent to the level of caring and expertise available at your dealer. That's everywhere. It was delivered with a hidden cut seat. Honda made it right. Dealer issue, not Honda. It had a real noisy set of alternator drive gears right out of the gate. Naults in Windham, New Hampshire made that right. Repair required everything here you see I have done plus removal of the engine. As expected there were numerous loose ends from the repair. Scratches, dings, adjustments and clamps were loose. I took care of it and didn't complain. I brought the bike in for a recall involving a rear brake dragging issue know to cause fires resulting in total loss of the bike. Rochester motor sports didn't bleed all the air out of the linked brake system properly. I have to take care of it myself. I brought it to Naults in Manchester, New Hampshire for an instability issue, heated seats/grips inop and the brake issue. They charged me 187.00 and said no problem found for the stability concern. Tech said bike was completely normal. They wanted to charge me to correct a recall issue. I of course said no. While there they broke an air deflector and said nothing. The tech left the seat cover off and never put the power connector for our heated gear back. He actually left it under the seat. He also bottomed the front suspension and broke a trim piece. Evident only later when someone else pointed it out.
I watched him correct seat cover and heated gear connector issue. He used an impact driver to tighten the seat bolts. Idiot! The information center display developed bleeding and needed replacement. Naults in Windham got that expensive warranty repair. While there I asked them to look at the engine coolant leak and fuel odor. They of course found nothing with either issue. Once again the words No Problem Found were uttered. I'm not bragging here, had math been a strong point I would have been an engineer with many patents under my belt. I'm arrogant for sure. I'm into the issues myself now. I found the coolant leak. The green residue on the junction being pointed to is of course the leak. I'm looking for the fuel leak. I'll find it. The point, when purchasing something complicated and expensive, buy it from a dealer with more than one fully certified older tech. I know the post is long, but so is the history."

This was posted on FB.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

AZgl1800 wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:06 pm
peppilepew wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:49 pm The dealer had the engine out installing new alternator drive gears. I have found multiple loose ends. I already located multiple loose hose clamps.
what was the dealer's charge to do that?
Gears were warranty. All the subsequent aggravation was also provided to me free of charge.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by MikeB »

I only said you could have led with that info because it would have let us know that talking about how overfilling the tank and possibly flooding the fuel vapor canister would not have been on the radar.

Definitely feel your pain of having a hack work on your bike when they are supposed to be trained technicians. We know you are more than capable of doing most of the work yourself but you can't get Honda to pay for the parts and maintenance when you do it yourself. It's really too bad you can't help do the work and supervise what the "tech" is supposed to be doing. Impact wrench on the seat bolts? Holy crap. With all they did wrong, maybe you should tell them not to put it back together next time. Since you will most likely have to pull it apart to fix what they screwed up anyway just have them leave it in pieces.
MikeB
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by AZgl1800 »

an Impact Wrench does not even belong in the same building that a motorcycle is being worked on.

hope that seat bolts were replaced, they are ruined. and maybe the threads in the frame attachment points?
~John

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Ghostman
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by Ghostman »

Overfilling can cause the odor and I wonder if the fuel vent hose is routed correctly from the tank. Ive seen guys put the top shelter on after doing some work and not really doublechecking to make sure its routed right . So that might be worth a look also.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by GWrider2016 »

Sorry to hear about your troubles. This line you wrote.... The point, when purchasing something complicated and expensive, buy it from a dealer with more than one fully certified older tech. I know the post is long, but so is the history." This is the reason i sold my Victory and bought a Wing. Finding competent techs these days is really a challenge for the entire motorcycle community.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

Ghostman wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:39 am Overfilling can cause the odor and I wonder if the fuel vent hose is routed correctly from the tank. Ive seen guys put the top shelter on after doing some work and not really doublechecking to make sure its routed right . So that might be worth a look also.
I found a clear vent tube folded over and not connected to the front left underside of the air filter box. That would partially circumvent the air cleaner and hamper the PCV system. As for a fuel odor, highly unlikely unless it is part of the vapor recovery system. I have to look at the manual and see.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

GWrider2016 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:37 am Sorry to hear about your troubles. This line you wrote.... The point, when purchasing something complicated and expensive, buy it from a dealer with more than one fully certified older tech. I know the post is long, but so is the history." This is the reason i sold my Victory and bought a Wing. Finding competent techs these days is really a challenge for the entire motorcycle community.
There is an old saying, "You can't fix stupid". I worked at many car dealers through the years and was often fed problems/complicated jobs other techs refused from the dispatcher. I was usually rewarded immensely with gravy work later. My nastiness came later when I was paying my employees 35 an hour and got shoddy work which in the end was partly why I sold my shop and got rid of everyone.
In all fairness, dealership techs are expected to correct the sins of the father for less than fair compensation. Flat rate is counter productive for everyone. There are some that take pride in everything they do. There are others that no matter how much they are paid will never deliver quality done right first time results. Dealerships are in part the reason new techs are almost non-existent in the mechanical repair area. After the indoctrination period is over (usually 3 weeks) new hire's get a taste of dealership life. It doesn't take long to sour someone working 50 hours and getting paid for 30.

As a consumer, the view of this situation is different. We know a percentage of the purchase price is there simply for potential warranty issues. We have already paid for this service and expect delivery when the situation arises. All disappointment comes from expectations. I see mostly disappointment in my quest of getting dealerships to follow up on this obligation. This is why dearlerships have lost their cash out of warranty repair work which made up the shortfall warranty work couldn't fill. Hence, customers seek out forums like this and share valuable knowledge with others. Much of the knowledge shared here cuts deeply into dealerships pockets.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

AZgl1800 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:09 am an Impact Wrench does not even belong in the same building that a motorcycle is being worked on.

hope that seat bolts were replaced, they are ruined. and maybe the threads in the frame attachment points?
Taking something apart with impact tools is different than assembling it with them. Modern electric guns are very controllable. This guy was anything but cautious. The bolts came out fine. Just in case, I was prepared to install 8x1.25 coils in the frame.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

MikeB wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:31 pm I only said you could have led with that info because it would have let us know that talking about how overfilling the tank and possibly flooding the fuel vapor canister would not have been on the radar.

Definitely feel your pain of having a hack work on your bike when they are supposed to be trained technicians. We know you are more than capable of doing most of the work yourself but you can't get Honda to pay for the parts and maintenance when you do it yourself. It's really too bad you can't help do the work and supervise what the "tech" is supposed to be doing. Impact wrench on the seat bolts? Holy crap. With all they did wrong, maybe you should tell them not to put it back together next time. Since you will most likely have to pull it apart to fix what they screwed up anyway just have them leave it in pieces.
I actually wanted some clean advice from experienced people. Telling the story would instantly lead someone to think incompetence. I no longer enjoy taking this 2012 apart. It sits now as I conjure up the will and desire to correct issues caused by others.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by tamathumper »

My first thought is a kinked (or missing) vent hose .
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

Has anyone had issues with perforated pressure reg diaphragms leaking into the vacuum line?
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by Viking »

peppilepew wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:32 am
AZgl1800 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:09 am an Impact Wrench does not even belong in the same building that a motorcycle is being worked on.
Taking something apart with impact tools is different than assembling it with them. Modern electric guns are very controllable. This guy was anything but cautious. The bolts came out fine. Just in case, I was prepared to install 8x1.25 coils in the frame.
I immediately thought when I first read this that an inexperienced person might not know the difference between an impact gun and an air wrench, but then peppilepew stated his mechanical experience and I knew this was not the case at all. For others without that level of experience, air wrenches take a lot of wrench turning away and really speed up disassembly and reassembly without the problems that would most definitely be incurred with an impact gun. Even air wrenches, however can be used at too high a setting and put out 185 lbs pressure. They do, however turn very slowly compared to impact wrenches, so that a decent technician can use them correctly. There are very few jobs aside from Over the Road trucks and trailers that require impact guns. No job on a motorcycle, as AZ1800 pointed out, would need an impact gun. I do love my air wrenches though for breezing through a multi bolt removal.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

I wanted to post a few pics. I have found numerous issues from the warranty repairs. Never again will anyone touch this bike. I fabricated a regulated air pressure tool for helping with the job of finding a leak. There at this time is no fuel leak. I found the coolant leak after pressurizing the coolant system to specs. It had to be a direct consequence of the engine removal. The clamp required 2 turns of the work drive. Stuff missing and broken everywhere.




















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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew »

















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Re: Fuel odor

Post by Techdude2000 »

peppilepew wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:45 pm I wanted to post a few pics. I have found numerous issues from the warranty repairs. Never again will anyone touch this bike. I fabricated a regulated air pressure tool for helping with the job of finding a leak. There at this time is no fuel leak. I found the coolant leak after pressurizing the coolant system to specs. It had to be a direct consequence of the engine removal. The clamp required 2 turns of the work drive. Stuff missing and broken everywhere.

20200417_132412.jpg20200417_132417.jpg20200417_132424.jpg20200417_132435.jpg20200417_132440.jpg20200417_132454.jpg20200417_132502.jpg20200417_132509.jpg20200417_132518.jpg20200417_132530.jpg
If you look at the bottom inside of the front lower gray cowl, do you see any residue on it where the evap canister hangs above it? If so, you’ve overfilled the tank on occasion and it’s dripped liquid gas on the cowl and stunk up the garage. Since a dealer pulled the engine, you need to check all of the tank vent routing from the front of the tank all the way to the purge solenoid and on to the evap canister. They could have left something loose or mis routed a hose and smashed it closed. The clear drain hose on the bottom of the air box is just for draining the crud out of the box from condensation and should have a plug in it for normal running. If left open, it will suck unfiltered air into the throttle body. Good luck with your reassembly.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by GoldWingrGreg »

peppilepew wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:45 pm I wanted to post a few pics. I have found numerous issues from the warranty repairs. Never again will anyone touch this bike. I fabricated a regulated air pressure tool for helping with the job of finding a leak. There at this time is no fuel leak. I found the coolant leak after pressurizing the coolant system to specs. It had to be a direct consequence of the engine removal. The clamp required 2 turns of the work drive. Stuff missing and broken everywhere.
If we were 8yrs old, and I said I can top that, it might be funny. But it really isn't. I have a repair that was shipped to me from VA. In his case, he paid a dealer to repair his trans. After riding it a few months it developed "an engine noise." He returns to the dealer and of coarse was told it was out of warranty. So he chooses my shop, and has it shipped to me. His "engine noise" was really a failing final drive. To swap drives, the mufflers need to come off, and of coarse I'd inspect the drive shaft too, and to reinstall it, the right engine cover needs to come off. Once the engine cover was off, and I've seen so much of this, my suspicions of a real hack job for reinstallation of an engine was confirmed. The first thing I noticed was no ground strap to coolant hose bolt at the back of the right head. I'd all ready noted muffle clamp bolts missing and 2 muffler hanger bolts missing too.

After fixing his noise, and knowing that if I go any deeper, this is going to mushroom into a huge bill of either going all the way and putting things back right again, or huge labor charges trying to get things hooked up correctly while fighting lots of routing issues and trying to get things to somehow fit correctly when hoses and harness are only one length ... the exact, length needed and nothing more.

Anyway, I'd forgot ... it's came with 2 complaints, the other is coolant smells ... **ck, that means a the left pocket will need to come off, which of coarse is gonna expose more of what shouldn't be, and a pressure test will be required. At that point I'm gonna be hip deep and a worst case mushroom scenario is gonna quickly grow. Sure enough, the first thing I notice is the nipple for the reservoir hose under the radiator cap is plugged off with a vacuum cap and "clamped" with a nylon tie. Think about that for a moment. The tech disable the part of the cooling system which allows coolant to expand and contract keeping the level under the cap correct for maximum cooling ability. It also means that as coolant expands it has to go somewhere. Which also means, since it can really go anywhere, it is best to under fill it.

Long story short ... there are over 70 parts missing on this Wing ... from air-box air snorkels, to fresh air ducks, routing brackets, heat vent cable ... and the list continues. His engine needs pulled to correct coolant leaks from the hoses under the intake manifold. He's leaving here with a bill of over $8,400 plus his shipping to get it here, plus his flight to come and get it. Actually, while it is here, $1,300 of that is for LED headlamps, fog lamps, and turn signal lighting. Keep in mind this all add'l to what he'd originally paid to have his engine removed and repair the 1st time.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by GoldWingrGreg »

So there's that story, here is another. A guy has another Honda dealer doing his trans repair, calls up and want to purchase and have shipped an undercut transmission from me. No problem, send payment and include an add'l $1000 for the core. Once I get a report back on your core damage, what ever money is owed back, I send 4-6 weeks later.

With the transmission I send this picture of needed parts back. This is what the tech sends back. Nearly all valuable parts have no value because of rust.
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by Techdude2000 »

GoldWingrGreg wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:14 pm
peppilepew wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:45 pm I wanted to post a few pics. I have found numerous issues from the warranty repairs. Never again will anyone touch this bike. I fabricated a regulated air pressure tool for helping with the job of finding a leak. There at this time is no fuel leak. I found the coolant leak after pressurizing the coolant system to specs. It had to be a direct consequence of the engine removal. The clamp required 2 turns of the work drive. Stuff missing and broken everywhere.
If we were 8yrs old, and I said I can top that, it might be funny. But it really isn't. I have a repair that was shipped to me from VA. In his case, he paid a dealer to repair his trans. After riding it a few months it developed "an engine noise." He returns to the dealer and of coarse was told it was out of warranty. So he chooses my shop, and has it shipped to me. His "engine noise" was really a failing final drive. To swap drives, the mufflers need to come off, and of coarse I'd inspect the drive shaft too, and to reinstall it, the right engine cover needs to come off. Once the engine cover was off, and I've seen so much of this, my suspicions of a real hack job for reinstallation of an engine was confirmed. The first thing I noticed was no ground strap to coolant hose bolt at the back of the right head. I'd all ready noted muffle clamp bolts missing and 2 muffler hanger bolts missing too.

After fixing his noise, and knowing that if I go any deeper, this is going to mushroom into a huge bill of either going all the way and putting things back right again, or huge labor charges trying to get things hooked up correctly while fighting lots of routing issues and trying to get things to somehow fit correctly when hoses and harness are only one length ... the exact, length needed and nothing more.

Anyway, I'd forgot ... it's came with 2 complaints, the other is coolant smells ... **ck, that means a the left pocket will need to come off, which of coarse is gonna expose more of what shouldn't be, and a pressure test will be required. At that point I'm gonna be hip deep and a worst case mushroom scenario is gonna quickly grow. Sure enough, the first thing I notice is the nipple for the reservoir hose under the radiator cap is plugged off with a vacuum cap and "clamped" with a nylon tie. Think about that for a moment. The tech disable the part of the cooling system which allows coolant to expand and contract keeping the level under the cap correct for maximum cooling ability. It also means that as coolant expands it has to go somewhere. Which also means, since it can really go anywhere, it is best to under fill it.

Long story short ... there are over 70 parts missing on this Wing ... from air-box air snorkels, to fresh air ducks, routing brackets, heat vent cable ... and the list continues. His engine needs pulled to correct coolant leaks from the hoses under the intake manifold. He's leaving here with a bill of over $8,400 plus his shipping to get it here, plus his flight to come and get it. Actually, while it is here, $1,300 of that is for LED headlamps, fog lamps, and turn signal lighting. Keep in mind this all add'l to what he'd originally paid to have his engine removed and repair the 1st time.
Dang! Did the owner of this bike file any complaints with mother Honda over the shi#*y mechanic work from one of their dealers? Someone needed to know!
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by GoldWingrGreg »

I'm still working on it, but it will be done soon. Unfortunately, the reason I didn't want to get more involved with it, is because I've seen so much of this. Often a dealer will do a good engine/trans repair, but the quality of the re-installation lacks lots of attention.

I've worked on a couple of Wings, like doing a 24k service that has a set price, but when it was all said and done, I basically told the customer that I don't want to work his Wing again. Routing can be so critical, that refitting a shelter is extremely time consuming because a harness is routed wrong. And the only way to correct it is to pull the engine, or harness, or cut the harness and re-splice it (not).


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