Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.


Information and questions on GL1800 Goldwings (2001-2017)
Post Reply
peppilepew
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 pm
Location: Hampton, New Hampshire
Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200 (Sold)
2000 Gl1500 Se (Sold)
2012 GL1800 Level 3

Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by peppilepew »



This is a very strange issue. This problem began after the secondary master was replaced under recall. I have had nothing but issues with dealer repair work so going back is not an option. I just finished correcting every other problem created and don't want any more. I have a pressure bleeder. I hooked it up and pumped a good amount of fluid through the secondary system. There was no change. The pedal bottoms without actuating the brakes. It does pump up and get firm. It takes 2 pumps. Fluid draws down, then returns to the reservoir within 10 seconds. The hand brake is perfect. I read something about a junction block which has a tendency to trap air. A pressure bleeder should push the air out. It's almost like one of the ABS accumulators is pressurizing before the caliper pistons extend. Anyone had a similar issue? I know most that frequent dealers have issues, the other issue. :D


User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 3323
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:54 pm
Location: Tacoma, WA
Motorcycle: 1998 - GL1500 Aspencade
184K Miles
2017 - GL1800 Audio Comfort
14K Miles
Contact:

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by MikeB »

From what I have heard, it is extremely difficult to get an air bubble out of the proportional control valve and it could be most likely your problem. The trouble is its location makes for lots of disassembly just to get to it.


MikeB
1998 - GL1500 w/184,500 miles ~ 2017 - GL1800 w/13000 miles
USAF Avionics Communications Tech - 1968 - 1986 / Flight Engineer C-130E - C-141B - 1986 - 1992. Retired
Industrial Maintenance Tech - 1992 - 2014
Retired in Tacoma, WA
Techdude2000
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:11 pm
Location: Lexington, KY
Motorcycle: 2004 GL1800

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by Techdude2000 »

Check out this post, it will fix this issue as well as a hot weather shudder issue that some see. https://www.gl1800riders.com/threads/ro ... ed.266426/
peppilepew
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 pm
Location: Hampton, New Hampshire
Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200 (Sold)
2000 Gl1500 Se (Sold)
2012 GL1800 Level 3

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by peppilepew »

I'll need to fabricate a wrench to get to it. The other choice is to increase the flow through the pressure bleeder. I never allow a brake system to completely drain for this reason. Replace the master and bleed at the line until clear. Thanks, you confirmed my fears and suspisions.
Techdude2000
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:11 pm
Location: Lexington, KY
Motorcycle: 2004 GL1800

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by Techdude2000 »

peppilepew wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 2:10 pm I'll need to fabricate a wrench to get to it. The other choice is to increase the flow through the pressure bleeder. I never allow a brake system to completely drain for this reason. Replace the master and bleed at the line until clear. Thanks, you confirmed my fears and suspisions.
I’m not sure if even a pressure bleeder would help due to the proportional valve interfering with it. The system is a mess.
peppilepew
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 pm
Location: Hampton, New Hampshire
Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200 (Sold)
2000 Gl1500 Se (Sold)
2012 GL1800 Level 3

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by peppilepew »

Techdude2000 wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 3:45 pm
peppilepew wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 2:10 pm I'll need to fabricate a wrench to get to it. The other choice is to increase the flow through the pressure bleeder. I never allow a brake system to completely drain for this reason. Replace the master and bleed at the line until clear. Thanks, you confirmed my fears and suspisions.
I’m not sure if even a pressure bleeder would help due to the proportional valve interfering with it. The system is a mess.
It didn't, but should have. I just put the shelter back on. It comes off again. My bad for thinking a simple bleed would solve the issue.
peppilepew
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 pm
Location: Hampton, New Hampshire
Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200 (Sold)
2000 Gl1500 Se (Sold)
2012 GL1800 Level 3

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by peppilepew »

I have solved the issue without cracking the flared fittings at the PCV. That area is indeed where the air was trapped. There are 4 flared fittings at the rear ABS modulator. My wife pumped the foot pedal with the pressure bleeder attached. I then cracked each fitting separately. Tightened while the fluid was still being pressure fed. It is necessary to do each fitting then tighten before moving onto the next. The pedal is now 100%.

Rear ABS actuator.
Rear ABS actuator.

peppilepew
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 pm
Location: Hampton, New Hampshire
Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200 (Sold)
2000 Gl1500 Se (Sold)
2012 GL1800 Level 3

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by peppilepew »

While In there I noticed the clear drain hose attached to the air box all bunched up and pressing against the throttle cams. This is another issue created when the engine was out. I'm lucky it didn't jam the throttle full open, damn lucky.
User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 3323
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:54 pm
Location: Tacoma, WA
Motorcycle: 1998 - GL1500 Aspencade
184K Miles
2017 - GL1800 Audio Comfort
14K Miles
Contact:

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by MikeB »

Outstanding. Glad you got it sorted out.
MikeB
1998 - GL1500 w/184,500 miles ~ 2017 - GL1800 w/13000 miles
USAF Avionics Communications Tech - 1968 - 1986 / Flight Engineer C-130E - C-141B - 1986 - 1992. Retired
Industrial Maintenance Tech - 1992 - 2014
Retired in Tacoma, WA
peppilepew
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 pm
Location: Hampton, New Hampshire
Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200 (Sold)
2000 Gl1500 Se (Sold)
2012 GL1800 Level 3

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by peppilepew »

MikeB wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 3:24 pm Outstanding. Glad you got it sorted out.
Thanks to all of you for the input. I have considered making a wrench for the PCV flared fitting nuts. It can be reached with a specially formed wrench. No ABS bikes have more clearance for the tools needed to reach the fittings.
User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 3323
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:54 pm
Location: Tacoma, WA
Motorcycle: 1998 - GL1500 Aspencade
184K Miles
2017 - GL1800 Audio Comfort
14K Miles
Contact:

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by MikeB »

Two years ago when working on a friends GL1200 brake system, I had to fabricate a special wrench to remove the brake line nut from the rear master cylinder.
There was no way to get a good bite on that brake line nut with a standard wrench. The nut was also locked in place tight. It needed a flare nut wrench to apply the needed pressure to break it loose.

I bent the wrench end, cut off 10 mm flare nut end and then welded it on in the position we needed to remove the flare nut. Worked perfectly.


MikeB
1998 - GL1500 w/184,500 miles ~ 2017 - GL1800 w/13000 miles
USAF Avionics Communications Tech - 1968 - 1986 / Flight Engineer C-130E - C-141B - 1986 - 1992. Retired
Industrial Maintenance Tech - 1992 - 2014
Retired in Tacoma, WA
peppilepew
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 pm
Location: Hampton, New Hampshire
Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200 (Sold)
2000 Gl1500 Se (Sold)
2012 GL1800 Level 3

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by peppilepew »

MikeB wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 5:17 pm Two years ago when working on a friends GL1200 brake system, I had to fabricate a special wrench to remove the brake line nut from the rear master cylinder.
There was no way to get a good bite on that brake line nut with a standard wrench. The nut was also locked in place tight. It needed a flare nut wrench to apply the needed pressure to break it loose.

I bent the wrench end, cut off 10 mm flare nut end and then welded it on in the position we needed to remove the flare nut. Worked perfectly.
Modified-Flare-Nut-Wrench_02.jpg
Nice! Problem solving is about recognizing a solution, then having the tools and ingenuity to solve the problem. I was going to weld a 1/4 inch extension into a 10mm crows foot. I didn't want to sacrifice the tools so I went with the above method.
User avatar
Viking
Posts: 3708
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:59 pm
Location: North Bay, Ontario, Canada
Motorcycle: 2009 GL1800 AD
1987 Harley Softail Custom
1974 Harley FLH (sold)
1965 Harley FLHE (sold)
1957 Harley Chopper (sold)

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by Viking »

peppilepew wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 6:46 pm
MikeB wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 5:17 pm Two years ago when working on a friends GL1200 brake system, I had to fabricate a special wrench to remove the brake line nut from the rear master cylinder.
There was no way to get a good bite on that brake line nut with a standard wrench. The nut was also locked in place tight. It needed a flare nut wrench to apply the needed pressure to break it loose.

I bent the wrench end, cut off 10 mm flare nut end and then welded it on in the position we needed to remove the flare nut. Worked perfectly.
download/file.php?id=61729&mode=view&mode=view
Nice! Problem solving is about recognizing a solution, then having the tools and ingenuity to solve the problem. I was going to weld a 1/4 inch extension into a 10mm crows foot. I didn't want to sacrifice the tools so I went with the above method.
When coming up against this sort of situation, I normally go out and purchase the wrench I need to modify, rather than sacrificing one I have. I also sacrifice less expensive tools than those in my tool chest. I love the ingenuity involved in making tools that work.
It ain't about the destination - it's all about the journey

Image
User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 3323
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:54 pm
Location: Tacoma, WA
Motorcycle: 1998 - GL1500 Aspencade
184K Miles
2017 - GL1800 Audio Comfort
14K Miles
Contact:

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by MikeB »

Viking wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 8:11 am
peppilepew wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 6:46 pm
MikeB wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 5:17 pm Two years ago when working on a friends GL1200 brake system, I had to fabricate a special wrench to remove the brake line nut from the rear master cylinder.
There was no way to get a good bite on that brake line nut with a standard wrench. The nut was also locked in place tight. It needed a flare nut wrench to apply the needed pressure to break it loose.

I bent the wrench end, cut off 10 mm flare nut end and then welded it on in the position we needed to remove the flare nut. Worked perfectly.
download/file.php?id=61729&mode=view&mode=view
Nice! Problem solving is about recognizing a solution, then having the tools and ingenuity to solve the problem. I was going to weld a 1/4 inch extension into a 10mm crows foot. I didn't want to sacrifice the tools so I went with the above method.
When coming up against this sort of situation, I normally go out and purchase the wrench I need to modify, rather than sacrificing one I have. I also sacrifice less expensive tools than those in my tool chest. I love the ingenuity involved in making tools that work.
That is exactly what I did. I went to an auto parts store and picked up two single 10 mm x 12 mm flare nut wrenches and did the mods. I actually picked up two and did two different mods. The cut and weld was better than the heat and bend mod.


MikeB
1998 - GL1500 w/184,500 miles ~ 2017 - GL1800 w/13000 miles
USAF Avionics Communications Tech - 1968 - 1986 / Flight Engineer C-130E - C-141B - 1986 - 1992. Retired
Industrial Maintenance Tech - 1992 - 2014
Retired in Tacoma, WA
peppilepew
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 pm
Location: Hampton, New Hampshire
Motorcycle: 1985 GL1200 (Sold)
2000 Gl1500 Se (Sold)
2012 GL1800 Level 3

Re: Foot Brake pedal low. Pumps up, draws fluid from reservoir, gets hard, the fluid pumps back into reservoir.

Post by peppilepew »

Viking wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 8:11 am
peppilepew wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 6:46 pm
MikeB wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 5:17 pm Two years ago when working on a friends GL1200 brake system, I had to fabricate a special wrench to remove the brake line nut from the rear master cylinder.
There was no way to get a good bite on that brake line nut with a standard wrench. The nut was also locked in place tight. It needed a flare nut wrench to apply the needed pressure to break it loose.

I bent the wrench end, cut off 10 mm flare nut end and then welded it on in the position we needed to remove the flare nut. Worked perfectly.
download/file.php?id=61729&mode=view&mode=view
Nice! Problem solving is about recognizing a solution, then having the tools and ingenuity to solve the problem. I was going to weld a 1/4 inch extension into a 10mm crows foot. I didn't want to sacrifice the tools so I went with the above method.
When coming up against this sort of situation, I normally go out and purchase the wrench I need to modify, rather than sacrificing one I have. I also sacrifice less expensive tools than those in my tool chest. I love the ingenuity involved in making tools that work.
One couldn't imagine the quantity of tools I have purchased through the years. I don't have a harbor freight close for sacrificial items. At 63 1/2, i'm done buying. I'm more about making do with what I have. I have 1 10mm snap-on flare nut crows foot, and 1 10mm snap-on flare nut wrench. Cut and weld removes the added bulk from the wrench from bending.


Post Reply