2001 gl1800a clutch slipping

[seagul]

Hi guys, so here’s the problem.
About 5 months ago I threw my leg over my goldwing, ready to go home after work. Hit the starter and let the clutch out, fead it some throttle and the clutch slipped. No warning of impending doom until that moment. Having to ride home I nursed it, but also had to have a play to see what was going on. It slipped under load in all gears. I ordered replacement genuine clutch components including springs, o rings centre nut and seals. I expect to find a burnt out clutch pack and wasn’t surprised when it was. After great perseverance I managed to get the new clutch fitted and the bike back on the road, just to have the problem still there. As you all know the work involved in replacing a clutch, I must say that prior to doing so I checked and had the master cylinder serviced, replaced the seal and piston in the slave. I found problems needless to say, but figured that all along my problems would go away. I had read up on all forums prior to the operation, and got great ideas but seems that everything is ok. I’m hoping against hope that I don’t need to drop the engine for either a $2.50 pressure regulator o ring or regulator. All the basics as in oil, oil filter have been changed to Honda spec just to be sure. For the record they weren’t prior but the oil was the correct spec oil.
Any additional help or advise would be greatly appreciated
Regards
Rob

[WingAdmin]

You had the master cylinder serviced, but can you confirm 100% that the return port is not clogged?

Actually, an easier way to diagnose that: loosen the banjo bolt on the master cylinder (catch any fluid that escapes). Does that engage the clutch fully? If so, then the problem is in the master cylinder. If not, then that rules out the master cylinder.

[seagul]

Thanks ghost man for the input. I was asked by the mob that serviced the master to give the clutch a few pumps and then back off the banjo to confirm if there was any pressure buildup. At the stage of fitting the refurbished master there wasn’t any evidence of residual hydraulic pressure but in say that I’ll have another go since I’ve pulled the clutch pack out again. The odd thing is that it only seemed to get worse the longer I rode the bike. So you may still be onto something. I’ll try anything twice, if it means not pulling the engine.
Thanks again dude

[GoldWingrGreg]

On a center stand and while using the rear brake, are you able to duplicate the issue ???

[seagul]

Got to say I haven’t tried it, so what will that determine? I understand that if the clutch system overall has a problem then under those conditions the clutch will or won’t slip.
Kindest regards
Rob

[seagul]

On another note goldwingrgreg, I’m not sure but I think it was in one of your posts maybe. There was a reference to the seal in the clutch cover that would cause a lot of smoke if it failed. I may have misunderstood this reference, but would you be able to tell me how the smoke might come about? It’s only for my own interest real. I had replaced that seal when I pulled the clutch out

[GoldWingrGreg]

On another note goldwingrgreg, I’m not sure but I think it was in one of your posts maybe. There was a reference to the seal in the clutch cover that would cause a lot of smoke if it failed. I may have misunderstood this reference, but would you be able to tell me how the smoke might come about? It’s only for my own interest real. I had replaced that seal when I pulled the clutch out

On some older 5th gen Wings, apparently the snap-ring that holds seal in place get installed wrong (soft side facing forward, instead of sharp side facing forward). It can cause the seal to blow out of the rear case, which then causes excess oil under the rear clutch cover. The excess oil ends up getting pushed into the airbox, mixes with air, and carried into the combustion chamber.

[GoldWingrGreg]

Got to say I haven’t tried it, so what will that determine? I understand that if the clutch system overall has a problem then under those conditions the clutch will or won’t slip.
Kindest regards
Rob

This test can help narrow down if your issue is due to a clutch issue or drive shaft issue. If the drive shaft spins, then you have a bad drive shaft. If the drive shaft does not spin, then you have a clutch issue.

Were your old steel clutch plates blue ??? Where you using a synthetic oil ???

[seagul]

That’s awesome info on the seal side of things thank you. No I wasn’t using a synthetic oil, well to the best of my knowledge I wasn’t. She was about 1000k off an oil change when it all went pear shaped. I’ll try and find the container and doodle check. As for blue plates well blue would be an understatement. These were toasted, which I sort of expected by the time I managed to get home and get a handle on the problem.

[GoldWingrGreg]

If your plates were blue from heat, don't do the drive shaft test. You obviously still have a clutch issue, and at this point there is no need to stress a new clutch.

The next thing to do is to remove the slave cylinder. If I can, I'll post a picture of how to do that tomorrow. If no slip then, then it's an issue with the with the slave cylinder, clutch m/c, hose in between the 2, or a clutch lever issue.

[seagul]

Thanks dude,
I’m ok with that removing of the slave, but please send me anything that might help out. I’ve pulled the new clutch out to recheck my work and be buggerd if I could find anything wrong. So this is why I’m stressing the regulator valve being the issue. Also found that it is now obsolete go figure. I’m also somewhat struggling to actually believe that it is the problem, because there doesn’t seem to be any regards posts confirming that it was found to be the issue. Whole thing sux and I miss riding the bike. My wife is blaming the extra load on the alternator with all the leds that I’m fitting

[tamathumper]

If your bike is visible from space, then it might be the LEDs, otherwise I'm pretty sure a few LEDs here and there aren't going to tax the alternator.

[seagul]

Now that’s the same thing I told my wife, and you recon she’s believing me. So from space NO, but the horizon, well . Nah, surely it want me!

[GoldWingrGreg]

Thanks dude,
I’m ok with that removing of the slave, but please send me anything that might help out. I’ve pulled the new clutch out to recheck my work and be buggerd if I could find anything wrong. So this is why I’m stressing the regulator valve being the issue. Also found that it is now obsolete go figure. I’m also somewhat struggling to actually believe that it is the problem, because there doesn’t seem to be any regards posts confirming that it was found to be the issue. Whole thing sux and I miss riding the bike. My wife is blaming the extra load on the alternator with all the leds that I’m fitting

When reassembling your clutch pack, make sure the "sharp sides" on all steel plates face rearward. Assuming that nothing is found incorrect with your clutch, let me know when it's all back together, and we can continue with diagnosing the slipping clutch issue.

[seagul]

That’s about the only thing that I can’t be 100% certain of so I might have to to pull it down Ahhhgain. Well at least I’m getting good at it. The oil I was using prior to the failure was Mobil 4T 20w50. Which meat all the requirements. The only other thing that wasn’t replaced was the slave cylinder but it mic fine without any pitting or grooves.
Stay tuned get back to you
Regards
Rob

[seagul]

There is one thing that has troubled me each time I’ve reassembled the clutch though. The basket has the typical indicator of plates chattering on the edges. Nothing that should or would hang a clutch up. So the last friction plate particularly, and last pressure plate were clocked for want of a term on one friction tab around. I know that’s the way I removed the clutch pack and put it back the same way. But I haven’t been able to confirm that the is the way it’s meant to be, either in my workshop manual,my Honda dealer, on various YouTube, or forums. Back to the question of pressure plate orientation I have a bad feeling somehow, that I might have all the sharp edges facing the clutch cover, the second time I did the rnr. I can say that there wasn’t any discolouration in the pressure plates and I did have the specific order of the friction plates ass about face. Funny how little things come back to you when the alcohol wears off. Anyhow I’m not sure if these self induced anomalies are given me the problem. Your advise would be greatly appreciated
Regards
Rob

[GoldWingrGreg]

There is one thing that has troubled me each time I’ve reassembled the clutch though. The basket has the typical indicator of plates chattering on the edges. Nothing that should or would hang a clutch up. So the last friction plate particularly, and last pressure plate were clocked for want of a term on one friction tab around. I know that’s the way I removed the clutch pack and put it back the same way. But I haven’t been able to confirm that the is the way it’s meant to be, either in my workshop manual,my Honda dealer, on various YouTube, or forums.

I'm not sure what you are describing there. Here are the abnormalities that must be followed with installing a clutch pack. The stacking and count of the friction plates must be followed. There are a total of 3 part numbers for the friction plates, of which 2 part numbers can be accidentally mixed up. Be sure the stacking is correct. Follow the parts diagram for your year, earlier years have different counts of parts #5 and 7. The sharp edges of the plates need faced rearward. Also, the last friction plate's tabs are offset in the clutch basket. Part #16 needs installed with the concave facing rearward.

https://www.mrcycles.com/oemparts/a/hon ... 707/clutch

Regarding oil. In 5th gens, the best oil continues to be Honda GN4 conventional oil. Do not use synthetics in them. Although I doubt your clutch slippage issue is due to using a synthetic, you should know this. Synthetics allow more clutch slippage. When I tear 5th gen engines down, I often find burnt plates in trike engines. However, I currently have an 2-whl engine in my shop that has burnt clutch plates.

Once you know your clutch pack is reinstalled correctly, let me know and I'll help you diagnose your issue.

[seagul]

Update. All plates were in correct order, pressure plates were facing sharp side to crank case. I spoke to the company that serviced my master cylinder, and asked what was done and replaced. I was a bit disappointed to find out that the shuttle valve and spring were re used. The fella seem to think that the spring may not be pushing the shuttle and seal back far enough. So I’ve got him to do a full number on it this time, here’s hoping that this will be the end of this
So just for morbid curiosity, you having done some numerous goldwing clutch’s, have you ever heard of the clutch pressure valve ever giving trouble?
Also the 4T oil I was running at the time of the failure was the first time I had use this oil. I can’t seem to be able to find anything that indicates it to be a synthetic oil. Would you know otherwise?
Kindest regards
Rob

[Wingsconsin]

Update. All plates were in correct order, pressure plates were facing sharp side to crank case. I spoke to the company that serviced my master cylinder, and asked what was done and replaced. I was a bit disappointed to find out that the shuttle valve and spring were re used. The fella seem to think that the spring may not be pushing the shuttle and seal back far enough. So I’ve got him to do a full number on it this time, here’s hoping that this will be the end of this
So just for morbid curiosity, you having done some numerous goldwing clutch’s, have you ever heard of the clutch pressure valve ever giving trouble?
Also the 4T oil I was running at the time of the failure was the first time I had use this oil. I can’t seem to be able to find anything that indicates it to be a synthetic oil. Would you know otherwise?
Kindest regards
Rob

Friction modifiers in our oil is a problem with the wet clutch - If this is not a specific type oil (no friction modifiers) that could cause it to slip I believe ..?

[seagul]

Just an update,
After much deliberation and after several remove and refits of the new clutch assembly, I decided to pull the engine to find that the o-ring on the clutch regulator valve has flattened and I assume been bypassing. So here’s hoping that once the replacement components arrive and it’s all reasonable that this will be the end of the pain.

[GoldWingrGreg]

What does the bore look like inside the clutch relief valve ??? Any resolution ???

[GoldWingrGreg]

Update. All plates were in correct order, pressure plates were facing sharp side to crank case. I spoke to the company that serviced my master cylinder, and asked what was done and replaced. I was a bit disappointed to find out that the shuttle valve and spring were re used. The fella seem to think that the spring may not be pushing the shuttle and seal back far enough. So I’ve got him to do a full number on it this time, here’s hoping that this will be the end of this
So just for morbid curiosity, you having done some numerous goldwing clutch’s, have you ever heard of the clutch pressure valve ever giving trouble?
Also the 4T oil I was running at the time of the failure was the first time I had use this oil. I can’t seem to be able to find anything that indicates it to be a synthetic oil. Would you know otherwise?
Kindest regards
Rob

The sharp edges of the steel clutch plates need to face rearward, not forward. As for 4T oil, I have no idea about the properties of that oil. Once again, Honda's GN4 conventional is the best oil for 5th gen Wings. Yes ... clutch master cylinders can cause clutch problems. When the clutch fluid is not changed every 2yrs, or every 12k, whichever is sooner, return fluid blockage can occur leaving the clutch not fully engaged causing slippage. The inside of your engine is very dirty. Which is evidence of a GW that didn't have the air filter changed every 12k. It's possible that dirt particles are causing your issue. When you removed the clutch's oil relief valve, was it open or closed ???

[seagul]

Hey dude,
Relief valve was closed.
The bike had a K&N air cleaner fitted when I bought the bike. I’ve never been a big fan of that product personally. I’ve been replacing them with genuine since I’ve had the it.
The bore has one or two minor scratches but no sign of dust damage. The valve is now obsolete, not that Honda cares about that. I can’t get any info on what the relief pressure is meant to be for the spring/valve. I made a test rig using a air regulator and switch and I’m getting approx 27/30 psi before it starts to bleed off, and at 35/40 psi the valve is fully open. I can’t guarantee that the oring is the primary source for the problem, but it is loose in the case bore. I have other problems to deal with now the case is off. I looked at the ADG, while in the “general vicinity “ and it’s buggered as well. Go figure.
Any input on the regulator valve? I was thinking of machining up a replacement top hat 0.020-0.040” thicker in the event that the spring might be soft.
I’m a little above your average dill, I build and modify turbochargers for a living and have a substantial machine shop at my disposal and quite an accomplished machinist.
Problem with modification is that there is always a fusible link elsewhere.
Regards
Rob

[GoldWingrGreg]

Hey dude,
Relief valve was closed.
The bike had a K&N air cleaner fitted when I bought the bike. I’ve never been a big fan of that product personally. I’ve been replacing them with genuine since I’ve had the it.
The bore has one or two minor scratches but no sign of dust damage. The valve is now obsolete, not that Honda cares about that. I can’t get any info on what the relief pressure is meant to be for the spring/valve. I made a test rig using a air regulator and switch and I’m getting approx 27/30 psi before it starts to bleed off, and at 35/40 psi the valve is fully open. I can’t guarantee that the oring is the primary source for the problem, but it is loose in the case bore. I have other problems to deal with now the case is off. I looked at the ADG, while in the “general vicinity “ and it’s buggered as well. Go figure.
Any input on the regulator valve? I was thinking of machining up a replacement top hat 0.020-0.040” thicker in the event that the spring might be soft.
I’m a little above your average dill, I build and modify turbochargers for a living and have a substantial machine shop at my disposal and quite an accomplished machinist.
Problem with modification is that there is always a fusible link elsewhere.
Regards
Rob

Even with a new o-ring, the old style CPRs (clutch pressure relief) valve will rock when reinstalled. It's held in place by a cast boss on the cylinder case. I'm sure you know that there are 2 oil pressure relieve valve and possibly the other one is where the problem lies. Unfortunately, when an engine is that dirty on the inside, no one knows what to do, and trial and error will use up huge amounts of time. As for internal spring tension with in the CPR valve, it at least has to be enough to seat the piston to the top.

I'm not sure if I'd mentioned this earlier, but prior to pulling a motor, if possible I alway do an oil pressure test first.

[tomos]

And ?. What is a conclusion, what was the problem, is it fixed?
Please update,
Thank you for your time and help
Regards Zoran