Reverse gear stopping after 2-3 seconds - sorted

[North Western]

Update:
It was working for a few weeks, then when I tested it yesterday it was causing problems again.
With the bike on the centre stand, the wheel will rotate in reverse for 20 - 30 seconds until I release the button.
With the bike on its wheels and actually reversing along the ground it stops after about 3 seconds.

So.....when I get the time I will investigate further and report back with any tales of success (or otherwise).

Ride safe, stay safe

Regards
Don

[North Western]

Okayyy.....I managed to get some time and did a few things.

Removed the large resistor fitted under the battery and meticulously cleaned /polished all the connections I could.
This worked the last time...but not this time. :
However...one thing had changed....the wheel only rotated for about 2 - 3 seconds.
Now I figure (thanks to some helpful comments from Techdude2000 )that the problem is being caused by bad electrical connections causing resistance, which the bikes system interprets as excess load and it shuts down the starter motor.
So I figured it may be to do with the other wires that come from the starter and reverse relays and connect into the loom. some of the wires had got moved around while disconnecting / reconnecting the reverse resistor.
I removed the left pannier (saddlebag) and went through all the wiring connections on all the plugs in that area.
I found green corrosion on most of them and did a very careful job of cleaning and then connecting / disconnecting / reconnecting each plug numerous times (I did it 20 times). I then investigated the small rectangular reverse regulator that is tucked into the frame up at the top right.
As Techdude2000 predicted, I found green corrosion on a couple of the pins at the end of the connector block.
I spent some time cleaning off all the green stuff and spraying it with contact cleaner, and also sprayed contact cleaner into the female connectors and then repeated the connect / disconnect routine again.
Tested the bike on the stand and this time the wheel kept turning.
I then moved the bike out of the garage (still stripped of the bodywork) and out into a lane (rough track) outside my house.
The lane has a bit of a slope and I reversed up the slope for about 20 yards without a problem.

So its working again....Yaaayyyy ....my fingers are crossed.
I'll update again in a few weeks to report if its keeps going this time.

Ride safe, stay safe folks

Regards
Don

[Techdude2000]

Hope that was it, intermittent reverse function will make people crazy!

[WingAdmin]

Hope that was it, intermittent reverse function will make people crazy!

The intermittent reverse function is the system's way of protecting the starter/reverse motor from overloading and failing.

It determines the load on the motor by measuring the voltage drop across it. The larger the voltage drop, the more current being drawn.

However, any resistance in any of the connections (usually from corrosion, as you found) also will cause a voltage drop, which the system assumes is being caused by overcurrent, so it shuts down to "save" your motor.

[Techdude2000]

Yea, I realize how it works, but when it is intermittent under the same conditions is when you can lose your mind trying to figure out what is failing. It’s a very finicky system for good reasons, but frustrating to repair when it’s broken.

[North Western]

A quick update on the reverse gear working.
Due to an injury to my left foot I have been unable to ride the bike since my last post.
However, I operated reverse gear with the bike on the centre stand this afternoon and it is still working, the wheel keeps revolving.
Obviously this is a "no load test", I will report back with an "on load" test result once my foot is able to wear a boot and change gear.

Stay safe folks.

Regards
Don

[Techdude2000]

A quick update on the reverse gear working.
Due to an injury to my left foot I have been unable to ride the bike since my last post.
However, I operated reverse gear with the bike on the centre stand this afternoon and it is still working, the wheel keeps revolving.
Obviously this is a "no load test", I will report back with an "on load" test result once my foot is able to wear a boot and change gear.

Stay safe folks.

Regards
Don

Ouch! Hope your foot gets better soon.

[North Western]

Update on reverse gear working.
After quite a while (and 1 minor operation) I have just recently been able to start riding the bike again.
I've done about 600 miles in the last week and can report that the reverse system is still working as it should.
Hopefully I now have it sorted.

Regards
Don

[Techdude2000]

Update on reverse gear working.
After quite a while (and 1 minor operation) I have just recently been able to start riding the bike again.
I've done about 600 miles in the last week and can report that the reverse system is still working as it should.
Hopefully I now have it sorted.

Regards
Don

Excellent!

[Ramnight]

If you have a GL1800 the problem is most likely a stretched reverse cable than can be adjusted in less than 5 minutes in your garage.
Check online or in the service manual on how this is done. The adjustment is done with the cable that pulls on the reverse, not the cable that pulls it off. Just adjust it for .002 and you will be good to go.

[Techdude2000]

If you have a GL1800 the problem is most likely a stretched reverse cable than can be adjusted in less than 5 minutes in your garage.
Check online or in the service manual on how this is done. The adjustment is done with the cable that pulls on the reverse, not the cable that pulls it off. Just adjust it for .002 and you will be good to go.

The usual symptom of a stretched cable is the reverse gear not fully engaging or staying engaged while reversing and a clicking noise will be heard as the mating gears are not fully mated. The system shutdown like the OP was having is more of an electrical issue than a mechanical issue. Either way the reverse system can be a lot of fun to figure out the culprit when it’s not working properly.

[petersonj]

I believe that the Cruise/Reverse control computer monitors the voltage on both sides of the Starter Solenoid B, which when in reverse mode should be open.
It monitors the starter motor side of Starter Solenoid B thru the RVS A Fuse.
When Starter Solenoid B is open, the voltage across it during reverse operation is also the voltage across the reverse resistors, which the control computer
can use to calculate the Starter Motor current, when operating in reverse.
However, the Cruise/Reverse control computer also tries to detect a bad Starter Solenoid B that does not open (i.e. fused Solenoid contacts) if the voltage
on both sides of the Solenoid are equal (essentially shorting out the reverse resistors).
When it detects this condition, the reverse operation will be terminated by the control computer within the 2-3 seconds after activating reverse.
You can determine that this is occurring by temporarily removing the RVS A Fuse, and then activating reverse (after you have verified that the Starter Solenoid B is actually operating correctly).
If when activating reverse with the RVS A Fuse removed, the reverse operates for a longer period of time before it cuts out, then that is the condition the computer is complaining about.
Reverse will still cut out when the RVS A Fuse is removed, because the computer also needs to be able to measure the starter motor current in order to control the reverse speed.
When the RVS A Fuse is removed, the computer see's zero volts across the starter motor, and ~12V on the other side of the Starter Solenoid B, which causes it's current calculation to be too high.
When the computer detects this condition for to long of time, it also terminates reverse operation.
These reverse control computer voltage sensing issues can be caused by several things (i.e. contact corrosion and others), but I believe that the reverse control computer software is way to sensitive to the
voltage thresholds that it uses to detect these conditions. I have not found a way to reprogram the control computer,
so I fixed this issue, by replacing the RVS A Fuse with a voltage divider circuit (i.e. 2 resistors) that slightly reduces the voltage sensed by the control computer.
This voltage divider resistor network is composed of a ~200 ohm resistor connected across the left & right RVS A Fuse terminal contacts and a ~800 ohm resistor connect between the right RVS A Fuse contact and the accessory ground terminal which is located directly above the RVS A Fuse. This voltage reduction of ~20% to the control computer, keeps it from inadvertently detecting the Starter Solenoid B shorted condition,
while still allowing it to measure the Starter Motor current when operating in reverse. It does however result in a faster reverse speed. I haven't had a chance to experiment with the voltage divider ratio to see how low of a reduction is required to keep the reverse from cutting out, but this fix does work to keep reverse from cutting out.

[Techdude2000]

I believe that the Cruise/Reverse control computer monitors the voltage on both sides of the Starter Solenoid B, which when in reverse mode should be open.
It monitors the starter motor side of Starter Solenoid B thru the RVS A Fuse.
When Starter Solenoid B is open, the voltage across it during reverse operation is also the voltage across the reverse resistors, which the control computer
can use to calculate the Starter Motor current, when operating in reverse.
However, the Cruise/Reverse control computer also tries to detect a bad Starter Solenoid B that does not open (i.e. fused Solenoid contacts) if the voltage
on both sides of the Solenoid are equal (essentially shorting out the reverse resistors).
When it detects this condition, the reverse operation will be terminated by the control computer within the 2-3 seconds after activating reverse.
You can determine that this is occurring by temporarily removing the RVS A Fuse, and then activating reverse (after you have verified that the Starter Solenoid B is actually operating correctly).
If when activating reverse with the RVS A Fuse removed, the reverse operates for a longer period of time before it cuts out, then that is the condition the computer is complaining about.
Reverse will still cut out when the RVS A Fuse is removed, because the computer also needs to be able to measure the starter motor current in order to control the reverse speed.
When the RVS A Fuse is removed, the computer see's zero volts across the starter motor, and ~12V on the other side of the Starter Solenoid B, which causes it's current calculation to be too high.
When the computer detects this condition for to long of time, it also terminates reverse operation.
These reverse control computer voltage sensing issues can be caused by several things (i.e. contact corrosion and others), but I believe that the reverse control computer software is way to sensitive to the
voltage thresholds that it uses to detect these conditions. I have not found a way to reprogram the control computer,
so I fixed this issue, by replacing the RVS A Fuse with a voltage divider circuit (i.e. 2 resistors) that slightly reduces the voltage sensed by the control computer.
This voltage divider resistor network is composed of a ~200 ohm resistor connected across the left & right RVS A Fuse terminal contacts and a ~800 ohm resistor connect between the right RVS A Fuse contact and the accessory ground terminal which is located directly above the RVS A Fuse. This voltage reduction of ~20% to the control computer, keeps it from inadvertently detecting the Starter Solenoid B shorted condition,
while still allowing it to measure the Starter Motor current when operating in reverse. It does however result in a faster reverse speed. I haven't had a chance to experiment with the voltage divider ratio to see how low of a reduction is required to keep the reverse from cutting out, but this fix does work to keep reverse from cutting out.

You shouldn’t have to modify this system, it works as designed on thousands of wings.

[Asphaltmaniac]

Update again

Reverse still working this morning.

I disconnected the battery, then stripped the right handlebar switch cluster and removed both reverse switch and the starter/reverse switch.

The reverse switch was a little bit dirty, but otherwise not bad.
I cleaned and lubricated the contacts / sliding parts and re-assembled it.

The starter / reverse switch was in worse condition.
IMGP1729.JPG
IMGP1730.JPG

I cleaned, polished and lubricated the contacts.
IMGP1732.JPG
IMGP1733.JPG

Put the switch back together, re-connected the battery, tested everything still works, disconnected battery again and put it all back together.
A final test that the reverse worked and it was time for a rum & coke on the decking in the spring sunshine.

I believe that the cleaning of the resistor contacts was the main reason that the system stared working again (thank you Techdude2000) , however any niggling suspicion about the handlebar switches has been put to rest.

I'll post an update if it fails again or in a few weeks to report that all is well

Thank you to all who chimed in with advice, greatly appreciated.

Kind regards
Don

I just replaced my turn signal spring a few weeks back. So now since my 06 is 18 years old I guess its time to crack open the right switch cluster and give er a bit of love.

[petersonj]

Obviously it doesn't always work correctly, based upon this post, which is evidence that many Goldwing owners have issues with this feature.
Your making an assumption that all engineering is good engineering!
My symptoms occurred after having to replace the starter, which apparently doesn't have the same electrical characteristics as the original one did.
This caused the onboard computer software to not perform as intended.
Since there is no way to reprogram the Cruise/Reverse Control Module computer that I know of, my solution corrected the issue by slightly modifying the electrical signals provided to the computer.

[Techdude2000]

Obviously it doesn't always work correctly, based upon this post, which is evidence that many Goldwing owners have issues with this feature.
Your making an assumption that all engineering is good engineering!
My symptoms occurred after having to replace the starter, which apparently doesn't have the same electrical characteristics as the original one did.
This caused the onboard computer software to not perform as intended.
Since there is no way to reprogram the Cruise/Reverse Control Module computer that I know of, my solution corrected the issue by slightly modifying the electrical signals provided to the computer.

The system works fine as designed. As long as all of its components are working correctly. You are correct in your analysis of the module detection of the open B relay and starter current monitoring. If yours was shutting down on occasion, this points to a defective B relay that has sticking contacts. You will never detect this situation when starting, but it would make your reverse system quite unreliable. The common issues I’ve seen riding and working on the 1800’s reverse system for the last 20 years is cables that need lubed or adjusted, sticking reverse shift switches, corrosion on the reverse regulator assembly’s connector, relays that get oxidation on their blades in the relay bank, and welded B relay contacts. Occasionally there will be a reverse actuator that locks up and fails, but you can’t predict that one. It will malfunction without any warning. On rare occasions the reverse regulator can have an internal failure as well. I’ve only seen one or two bikes ever have the cruise/reverse control module actually fail. An ongoing issue that is seen is folks cheaping out and not using OEM relays, starters, and alternators that cause other or repeated failures. Did you replace the starter with an aftermarket unit, if so this was possibly the source of your failure

[petersonj]

I also replaced both starter solenoids, so that's not the issue.
It has to do with the back EMF voltage of the new starter motor being greater than the original starter motor.

[Techdude2000]

I also replaced both starter solenoids, so that's not the issue.
It has to do with the back EMF voltage of the new starter motor being greater than the original starter motor.

Ok, but did you replace the starter with OEM or aftermarket?

[GoldWingrGreg]

I also replaced both starter solenoids, so that's not the issue.
It has to do with the back EMF voltage of the new starter motor being greater than the original starter motor.

As Rob (Techdude) is asking. Is your starter OEM, and how long ago was it replaced ???

[petersonj]

Replaced the Starter and solenoids last month. Mine is a 2006 Goldwing, so if you are familiar with how the OEM handles parts suppliers for that old of a bike, I think you'd know that the OEM has pass on the spare parts business to aftermarket suppliers a long time ago. If you think your getting an "OEM" part, you're actually just overpaying for a part that was actually produced by the aftermarket supplier(s).
The technology used to build starters (or any other component) is more up to date for parts produced now, versus back in 2006 when the bike was manufactured. This can cause the part to behave differently (usually better, i.e. better magnets/windings which cause a larger back EMF when the motor is operating) which is definitely not accounted for by the firmware in the Cruise/Reverse Control Module. Reread my original description of the problem and the behavior of the firmware and I think you will see the issue.

[Techdude2000]

Replaced the Starter and solenoids last month. Mine is a 2006 Goldwing, so if you are familiar with how the OEM handles parts suppliers for that old of a bike, I think you'd know that the OEM has pass on the spare parts business to aftermarket suppliers a long time ago. If you think your getting an "OEM" part, you're actually just overpaying for a part that was actually produced by the aftermarket supplier(s).
The technology used to build starters (or any other component) is more up to date for parts produced now, versus back in 2006 when the bike was manufactured. This can cause the part to behave differently (usually better, i.e. better magnets/windings which cause a larger back EMF when the motor is operating) which is definitely not accounted for by the firmware in the Cruise/Reverse Control Module. Reread my original description of the problem and the behavior of the firmware and I think you will see the issue.

The 06 OEM starter is manufactured by Mitsubishi and is the same unit that was used on the 06-17 models. If you bought a unit not made by Mitsubishi, then you didn’t get what Honda designed the system to use. I’m not going to argue with you, your modification is not something that should be required and hopefully no one else try’s it. I’m out.

[petersonj]

You may not want to try it, but it does work to resolve the issue. Other owners that have fought with this problem may be interested in trying it. It's a very simple fix, and IT WORKS.

[GoldWingrGreg]

Replaced the Starter and solenoids last month. Mine is a 2006 Goldwing, so if you are familiar with how the OEM handles parts suppliers for that old of a bike, I think you'd know that the OEM has pass on the spare parts business to aftermarket suppliers a long time ago. If you think your getting an "OEM" part, you're actually just overpaying for a part that was actually produced by the aftermarket supplier(s).
The technology used to build starters (or any other component) is more up to date for parts produced now, versus back in 2006 when the bike was manufactured. This can cause the part to behave differently (usually better, i.e. better magnets/windings which cause a larger back EMF when the motor is operating) which is definitely not accounted for by the firmware in the Cruise/Reverse Control Module. Reread my original description of the problem and the behavior of the firmware and I think you will see the issue.

Since you're not answering a direct question, I'm gonna assume that you've installed an non-OEM starter and recommend that it be removed, and an OEM one installed. Rob's giving electrial advise, I'm giving mechanical advise.

Honda uses a solid pinless shaft for their starter splines. All the aftermarket ones that I've seen do not. When the pin breaks, it can send metal thru the motor. The repairs are in the thousands of $$$. How do I know, because here at JustWings - Gl1800 Specialty Service and Repair, we've repaired a few of them.

Hopefully you used OEM solinoids ... because they're the ones that are reliable.